Don't Follow the Sunnah???

[ThandyMazaq]

I have seen many people here who claim that followgin the prophet SAW is not allowed or what ever and they only cling to the quran for their guidance. even though many of us have asked them if they only follow quran, how do they pray, how many times do they pray, and this sort of things, they have not answered these questions, but just keep saying this one line about we are not allowed to follow the sunnah of prophet SAW.
here is an article from http://straightpath.hypermart.net/
that explains is perfectly about how important it is to follow sunnah for muslims.
Obeying the Prophet Muhammad(S) by Shaad Ahmed

“Say (Oh Muhammad): ‘If you (truly) love Allah then follow me, so that Allah may love you and forgive your sins.’ And Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.” (3:31)

Alhumdu’lillah the above ayah is very clear. If we claim to love Allah, who we, as Muslims, are to love more than everyone, then we have to obey what Prophet Muhammad(S) has told us so that Allah may love us and forgive our sins.

We have to obey Muhammad(S) and love him more than ourselves. Allah says concerning the love we are required to have for Him and Muhammad(S) (what means):

“Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, your kindred, the wealth you have gained, the commerce in which you fear decline, or the dwellings in which you delight – are dearer to you than Allah or His Messenger and striving in His cause – then wait until Allah brings about His decision. And Allah guides not the rebellious.” (9:24)

“The Prophet has a higher claim on the believers than [they have on] their own selves.” (33:6)

There should be nothing in our lives dearer to us than Allah and the Prophet Muhammad(S). Anas(R) reported that Rasulullah(S) said, “Whoever possesses three qualities will taste the sweetness of Iman. 1) That Allah and His Messenger are dearer to him than anything else. 2) To love a person only for Allah’s sake, and 3) To hate to revert to disbelief, after Allah had saved him from it, as he would hate to be thrown into the fire.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

Anas(R) reported that the Prophet(S) said, “None of you will have faith until he has more love for me than for his parents, his children, and all humanity.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

When we love somebody, then desire to obey and follow them. We do not hesitate to implement their wishes. As Muslims, we have to love Muhammad(S) more than anyone except for Allah and we must obey what Allah and Muhammad(S) have told us to do and not to do.

Allah has told us (what means):

“Allah knows best with whom to place His Message.” (6:124)

We know that Allah chose Muhammad(S) for this purpose, and it is important that we abstain from that which the Prophet(S) forbade us and preserve what he has commanded for us.

There are numerous proofs in the Quran and the Sunnah that indicate the obligation to obeying Allah and His Messenger(S).

Irbaad ibn Saariyah reports that the Messenger of Allah(S) gave the companions (Sahaba) an exhortation one day after the Fajr Prayer which caused their eyes to shed tears and their hearts to quiver So a man said, “This is as if it is a final exhortation, so counsel us, O Rasulullah(S).” He(S) said, “I counsel you to fear Allah and to hear and obey even if an Ethiopian slave becomes your leader, since he who lives will see much division(many differences). So keep to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided successors after me, cling to that with your teeth. Beware of novelties for every novelty is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray” (Tirmidhi)

We can see how many differences there are today amongst the Muslim Ummah, and this, obviously, has been caused by straying away from the Quran and Sunnah. Many Muslims have particularly been negligent of the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(S). Muslims seem to think that they have an option when it comes to obeying Muhammad(S). They mistakenly estimate obedience to him(S) as being admirable and rewardable, but as only being optional. They say, "We will simply follow the Quran and leave the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad(S). However it is obvious from the Quran that we have to obey Muhammad(S).

"It is not fit for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have

decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Messenger has indeed strayed in a plain manner." (33:36)

Allah is telling us that we have no right to disobey the decisions of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad(S). We can not neglect to obey the Prophet Muhammad(S), because Allah is telling us to obey Prophet Muhammad(S) as well as Allah.

“And We have sent you (Muhammad) as a Messenger to mankind, and Allah is sufficient as a Witness. He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them.” (4:79-80)

“Say (Muhammad), ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger, but if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.” (3:32)

“And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow, to abide therein, and that will be the great success. And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, and transgress His Limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein, and he shall have a disgraceful torment.” (4:13-14)

We can see that if we do obey Allah and His Messenger Muhammad(S) that we will be admitted to Paradise, but if we turn away and refuse to obey then Allah is saying He does not like the disbelievers, and the place for such people is the Hellfire.

“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.” (33:21)

“And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.” (59:7)

“Let those beware who oppose the Messenger’s order! In case some fitnah(trial) should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted upon them.” (24:63)

Allah is giving us clear warnings about disobeying what Muhammad(S) has commanded us. There is no better example for us than the Prophet Muhammad(S), and we have to take what he has given us, and we have to abstain from what he(S) has forbidden us.

“Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is no less than revelation sent down to him.” (53:3-4)

We can see that we are obliged to obey what Prophet Muhammad(S) has commanded us. As the ayah above indicates, he(S) did not speak of his own desires but he spoke what was revealed to him by Allah. It is not as if Muhammad(S) came up with his own laws and regulations, but anything that Muhammad(S) had commanded for us to do regarding Islam came from Allah.

Allah says (what means) :

“And similarly, We sent not a warner before you (Muhammad) to any town but the luxurious ones among them said, ‘We found our fathers following a certain way and religion, and we will indeed follow their footsteps. (The warner) said, ‘Even if I bring you better guidance than that which you found your fathers following.’” (43:23-24)

Many people of the Muslim Ummah today do things because they have seen their ancestors doing them, and the above translation of the ayah shows us we can not follow something just because our ancestors were doing it. We need to base our actions on what we have in the Quran and Sunnah, because the best and true guidance comes from the Quran and the Sunnah.

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no (real) faith until they make you (Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.” (4:65)

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is better and more suitable for final determination.” (4:59)

“And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with each other), lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allah is with those who are patient.” (8:46)

It is clear that the way to avoid disputes amongst ourselves is to refer to what Allah and Muhammad(S) have commanded us, and we can do this through the Quran and the Sunnah.

"And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear

proofs had come to them." (3:105)

We can not settle for somebody’s analogy when a clear proof from the Quran or the Sunnah is available. Imam Shafi brought the point that just as we can not settle for tayummum when water is available for purification, we can not settle for the saying of some individual about a religious matter when there is something in the Quran and the Sunnah on that matter.

Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi, and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal all stressed the importance of referring to the Quran and the Sunnah in all matters, and to reject all opinions that are in contradiction with the Quran and Sunnah. No matter who may have given you their opinion, we need to reject their saying if it is not in accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah.

Imam Abu Haneefah said, “It is not permitted for anyone to accept our views if they do not know where we got them from.” He also said, “We are mortals: we say one thing one day, and take it back the next day.” In addition, he also said, “When I say something contradicting the Book of Allah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger(S), then ignore my saying.”

Imam Malik has proclaimed, “Truly I am only a mortal. I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions. All that agrees with the Book and Sunnah, accept it, and all that does not agree with the Book and Sunnah, ignore it.”

Imam Shafi said, “For everything I say, if there is something authentic from the Prophet(S) contrary to my saying, then the hadeeth of the Prophet(S) comes first, so do not follow my opinion (in such a case).” He also said, “Every statement on the authority of the Prophet(S) is also my view, even if you do not hear it from me.”

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal said, “Whoever rejects a statement of the Messenger of Allah(S) is on the brink of destruction.”

Allah says (what means):

“The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger, to judge between them, is that they say, “We hear and we obey.” And such are the successful. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, fears Allah, and keeps his duty, such are the successful.” (24:51-52)

When somebody comes to us with an ayah from the Quran or an authentic hadith of the Prophet Muhammad(S), we should not come up with our own interpretations or excuses rather we should hear and obey Allah and His Messenger.

Insha’Allah we will take the time to study the seerah (biography) of the Messenger of Allah Muhammad(S) so we can see how he lived his life, and the effort he put into spreading the true religion of Islam. Insha’Allah we can also take time to study ahadeeth as well. The Sunnah is an integral part of Islam, because as we can see we must obey Muhammad(S). In order to obey what he(S) said, we need to know what he said.

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet(S) said, “All of my Ummah will enter Paradise except those that refuse.” Those who were with him (the Sahaba) said, “And who will refuse?” He(S) said, “Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me will have refused.” (Bukhari)

Alhumdu’lillah the hadith above is self explanatory. Insha’Allah we will be among the people who will obey the Prophet Muhammad(S), and not among those who will refuse.

[FactFinder]

Jazak Allah, brother. May Allah reward you for your efforts and keep you on sirat al mustaqeem, always. Ameen.

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Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[PakistaniAbroad]

If Christians find some writings which talk about Chirstmas trees being decorated in Christmas seasons, would the writings be criticized and rejected for propagating such pagan practices or embraced because it's narrated by Paul who couldn't lie and had immaculate memory and also contain details of current day rituals?

And if such writings elaborate other current rites and rituals, then would the Bible be rendered unnecessary or incomplete or subject to translation through these writings?

People who challenge dubious accounts are not challenging the authority of the Prophet, or trying to render his 'Sunnah' invalid. They are trying to wake others up from this ignorant slumber of thinking that these 'sahih' books are actually trustworthy and their accuracy and contents beyond criticism.

Bring me something compiled and approved by Abu Bakr who did the same for the Qur'anic writings and had the best chance of recording everything the Prophet did and said outside the Qur'an in a manual for the Ummah, or some other book written less than twenty years after the hijrah and I'll consider it a truthful enough account of the Prophet's Sunnah.

I personally believe if we were to find such a book, we'd be surprised how TOTALLY close to the Qur'an it is and we'd find in it not a SINGLE deviation from the Qur'an as the honorable Prophet preached, taught, warned and judged using NOTHING BUT THE QUR"AN

Prophet Warned Using Qur'an ONLY

[al-An`am 6:19] Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).

Prophets are supposed to judge using Allah's Book ONLY and that's EXACTLY what our beloved Prophet did too

[an-Nisa' 4:105] Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.

[al-Ma'idah 5:44] Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

Notice how the Jewish Bible today contains the Torah AND Talmud, Books of The Writings etc. Maybe that's the reason Jews were unbelievers.

Allah guides whomsoever He wishes.. so only ALLAH is worthy of being followed.

[Yunus 10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?

Sadly people still prefer to follow conjecture

[Yunus 10:36] And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.

they abandon the Qur'an and think they need other sources for explaining it

[Yunus 10:37] And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

May Allah give us the knowledge to better understand and follow his Message in the Qur'an.

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This Space For Rent

[Ibrahim]

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
And if such writings elaborate other current rites and rituals, then would the Bible be rendered unnecessary or incomplete or subject to translation through these writings?

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

PA! you seem to talk without knowledge and you have already given us the reason as to why you do such things in your own words in previous threads, which was, “you like to let your mind run wild” so we need to excuse you and advise you that you should refrain from religious discussions for there is no room for people who let their mind run wild in such discussions as religion is based on sound “revealed texts”.

Having said that, let me correct your misconceptions.

1. the Bible is messed up because it contains records of kings and prophetic works combined therein, which were meant to be kept separate since such works are prone to corruption as those are not the revealed texts like the Torah or the Psalms.

2. Similarly the Gospel ( accounts written by 4 unknown authors) is combined with Acts of the Apostles (hadiths) and Epistles (letters written by Paul and others) which lead to the confusion of the Christians .

But IN Islam, as you may have noted they are kept separate and hence NO room for misguidance. The Qur’an is the primary source and the hadiths the secondary source for information on Islam.

Here The revelations “Qur’an” is intact in its original language and the Acts of the Prophet and his trusted companions are all kept separately as hadiths which have been meticulously categorized by our ancestors due to its nature.

Your problem seems to be the lack of knowledge in not being able to comprehend that even a 1000 years ago human capability to memorize and transmit information far exceeds our current state of memory, since we have vastly corrupted ourselves and our abilities due to indulgences of recent origin.

What I am saying is that most of the earlier scriptures including the Bible were totally transmitted by memory, if you do the research you will find that the torah (ben Asher texts) in existent today can only be dated around 1008 AD and even the first printed Talmud came into existence only around 1520 AD…so wonder how those texts were preserved prior to that?

Similarly the hadiths that you seem to doubt had been compiled by various collectors of hadiths who were direct eyewitnesses to those events and transmitted orally until it was compiled by others into written form.

I put it to you IF the Torah or even the Veda had been transmitted orally for centuries by memory alone without much errors, why would it be impossible for hadiths to be transmitted in that form for a few decades , when the entire Qur’an is being memorized and transmitted by memory even today?

People who challenge dubious accounts are not challenging the authority of the Prophet, or trying to render his ‘Sunnah’ invalid. They are trying to wake others up from this ignorant slumber of thinking that these ‘sahih’ books are actually trustworthy and their accuracy and contents beyond criticism.

Ibrahim says; In other words you have decided to challenge your ancestors who preserved the sayings meticulously because you lacked sufficient wisdom as to how they have been preserved , categorized and transmitted.

Second you are unaware of the fact that prior to what we have as compilations in book form by various collectors ( Bukhari, Muslim etc) they had been initially transmitted by the narrators , who are actual eye witnesses to those events by oral transmission . which you are unaware due to your own ignorance.

You see even when the Prophet (pbuh) was amongst us , there were well established hadith transmitters who did the transmission orally to whoever enquired about various practices the most well known transmitters amongst them are the companions Abu Hurayra , Abdullah the son of Umar, Anas the son of Malik, Umm al-Mumininin Aishah, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Abu Said al-Khudri all of whom transmitted thousands sayings of the Prophet orally to the Muslims prior to it being compiled into book form where all of them were combined and sorted and categorized by the compilers

Bring me something compiled and approved by Abu Bakr who did the same for the Qur’anic writings and had the best chance of recording everything the Prophet did and said outside the Qur’an in a manual for the Ummah, or some other book written less than twenty years after the hijrah and I’ll consider it a truthful enough account of the Prophet’s Sunnah.

Ibrahim says; You are being naive, the Qur’an was put into writing by the Prophet (pbuh) various people had maintained various passages of it in writing for their own use even as it was being orally transmitted by the Prophet (pbuh) . But the hadiths need not be put into writing immediately since the people present amongst them had immediate excess to what the Prophet said and did as they were eyewitnesses to those events . They did not foresee the need to put them into writing as some tom , dick and harries may come to insist they must, at some future date and time.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

This is like having a teacher some few hundred years back , the teacher , shows the way and the students copy them into their memory and put them into practice . there were no video cams or lap tops are even “sheets of paper” being sold in the market for one to record an event other than by memory as it took place at that time frame. The Qur’an is an exception since that took 23 years to complete and those words were from Allah (swt) and had to be recorded as revealed in its various dialects , for which the Prophet (pbuh) had scribes to record.

I personally believe if we were to find such a book, we’d be surprised how TOTALLY close to the Qur’an it is and we’d find in it not a SINGLE deviation from the Qur’an as the honorable Prophet preached, taught, warned and judged using NOTHING BUT THE QUR"AN

Ibrahim says: that is your opinion since you have chosen to ignore the command of Allah (swt)

Allah swt) conveyed this repeatedly in the Qur’an

1. ** Obey Allah (swt)** meaning you pbey what is being revealed in the Qur’an

2. ** Obey His Rasool (saw) ** meaning follow his foot steps and ways of life meaning obey his sunnah

3. ** Obey those charged with Authority ** meaning those that the Prophet (pbuh) chose as his companions to lead us in his absence and those that are learned in religious knowledge.

I hope I do not have to quote the verse for the above statements!

Hence it is you and your kind that have decided on your own to obey only what you deem fit according to your whims and fancies and doubt the Prophet (pbuh) and his ways due to your ignorance and inability to comprehend the message given in the Qur’an.

The passages you quote from the Qur’an are out of context and I have already quoted numerous verses from the Qur’an , which tells you to OBEY THE PROPHET (pbuh), your contention is that, how will you know those are his works?

That is simple because they have been preserved as his works anything that does not conform to the Qur’an will not be found therein. The hadiths are meant to show glimpses of the past as well as the future and the experiences and practices as realized by the prophet (pbuh). There are not written in lucid form as there belong to a time frame when such expressions were sufficient to convey what they were talking about. Current generations due to evolution may find some of the wording lacking , but that is not a problem for those who have the wisdom and knowledge to understand ancient vocabulary.

At the same times since there MUST be an opposing force for all Prophets (read the Qur’an) , be sure they will have invented their own hadiths to misguide the Muslims, but surely If you had put your faith in Allah (swt) and know that HE is the ONLY guide, He will surely show you the way to separate the truth from the false or fabricated hadiths.

As a rule of the thumb , NO authentic hadith will ever contradict the Qur’an.

Was salaam

** It is a duty of every believer – man and woman to seek knowledge. ** If one dismisses the hadiths due to their own ignorance , they have lost a treasure chest of knowledge that had been preserved for them by their ancestors)

[Musalman]

The meaning of "The Sunnah" is "The Path". Following Sunnah Al-Nabi means following the path of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). What is so wrong in it?

[FactFinder]

Jazak Allah, brother Ibrahim!

Rejection of ahadeeth is usually practiced by people who think that aql can be better than daleel. They do not know that aql has limitations while daleel is solid evidence.

The only limitations on daleel is to separate the genuine from the weak or fabricated. Masha Allah, scholars of ahadeeth have devoted their lives to sifting through the data and bringing to us the genuine ahadeeth. May Allah grant them ajr and a place in the best place in Heaven for this effort. Ameen.

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Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[armughal]

well u MUST follow the sunnah....
cuz there r many things about which u dont find clear answers in the Quran and the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has descibed them....

but some foolish peolpe compare following the Prophe (pbuh) to idol-worship (isnt that stupid)....

but what we all know is that Following the Sunnah is a MUST for all muslims....

may Allah guide us all and show us the true path as He has mentioned in His Book and as He has shown us through the life of His Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)....

[faceup]

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**Jazak Allah, brother Ibrahim!

Rejection of ahadeeth is usually practiced by people who think that aql can be better than daleel. They do not know that aql has limitations while daleel is solid evidence.

The only limitations on daleel is to separate the genuine from the weak or fabricated. Masha Allah, scholars of ahadeeth have devoted their lives to sifting through the data and bringing to us the genuine ahadeeth. May Allah grant them ajr and a place in the best place in Heaven for this effort. Ameen.**
[/quote]

The irrevocable products & proof of this daleel are people like you and your bankrupt creed. May Allah destroy you all like He destroyed the Taleban. Ameen!

---

Allah gave them brain;
Mullahs took away their brain.

[FactFinder]

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** The irrevocable products & proof of this daleel are people like you and your bankrupt creed. May Allah destroy you all like He destroyed the Taleban. Ameen!

---

Allah gave them brain;
Mullahs took away their brain.

**
[/quote]

The post shows who is bankrupt. If you have anything to support your views, present them as this is a discussion forum, not a name-calling bout.

As for your May Allah destroy you all like He destroyed the Taleban. Ameen! Only Allah can cure that disease, where you have stooped to the level of praying for the destructions of Muslims, just because they have different opinions.

May Allah guide those who are adamant on misguiding people by their ignorant views.

Please respond to the questions raised by brother armughal.

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Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[faceup]

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**

I supported my views by presenting you as proof or view of your daleel.

What can be the best view than the reflection of the mirror!

I showed you your own reflection produced by the daleel that you so eloquently flaunt.

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*As for your *May Allah destroy you all like He destroyed the Taleban. Ameen! Only Allah can cure that disease, where you have stooped to the level of praying for the destructions of Muslims, just because they have different opinions. **

---

FF,
I just turned the table on you or prayed for your damnation in the ways that you are familiar with. Haven't you and that ThandyTaati been, all along, damning others for their beliefs. You really think I or any sane individual would wanna get caught in this non-sense creed of yours?

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** May Allah guide those who are adamant on misguiding people by their ignorant views.

Please respond to the questions raised by brother armughal.**

---

FF,
There you go again! Calling Allah's name in vain! Armughal and you all are like a broken record which plays like:

• Frozen in the 7th century and for all eternity and O' what a beautiful day it is today . Jazak Allah***

[FactFinder]

Faceup!

I can only pity you and pray for you. But forgiveness is from Allah and is linked to your repentence.

By the way, I searched on your previous posts and found that the ailment is not new. You have been suffering from the same disease for atleast one year.

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Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 20, 2001).]

[ThandyMazaq]

great article…explain the science of hadith
from http://straightpath.hypermart.net/
The Science of Hadith

Hadith is a term that is applied to specific reports of the Prophet’s words and deeds as well as those of many of the early Muslims. These reports were collected soon after the Prophet’s death, and then were compiled by several different scholars. Once the hadith were compiled, a science of hadith criticism had developed in order to distinguish between authentic and false hadith. In order to determine the authenticity of the hadith, scholars examined the isnad, or chain of authorities who transmitted the hadith. Though the majority of the Muslims accept the six major corpora as authentic, many problems exist within the corpus of hadith.

The hadith reports were originally transmitted orally, but some transmitters began to record them in writing. Compilers were careful not to tamper with the texts as they received them from recognized specialists in hadith transmission, and collections reflect their spoken origins. After 2 centuries of collecting and transmitting the hadith, scholars began codifying the bulk of the material. In 9th century CE, 6 collections were produced which are almost universally accepted by the Sunni community as the most authoritative: al-Bukhari(d. 870 CE), Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj(d. 875), Abu Da’ud al-Sijistani(d. 888), Ibn Majah al-Qazwini(d. 887), Abu Isa al-Tirmidhi(d. 892), and Abu ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Nasa’i(d. 915). Two other collections that are also favored by the Sunnis are those of Malik ibn Anas(d. 795) and Ahmad ibn Hanbal(d. 855). Shiis use the above collections, but they are selective in their recognition of the companions as valid authorities. Also, the Shiis consider hadith from their imams as fully authoritative. Some of these imams are Muhammad ibn Yaqub al-Kulayni(d. 940), Muhammad ibn Babuyah al-Qummi(d. 991), and Muhammad al-Tusi(d. 1068), who compiled two collections.

By the time these collections had been completed, a science of hadith criticism had developed. The purpose of the science was to determine the authenticity of hadith attributed to the Prophet and to his companions and to preserve the corpus from alteration or falsification. **Scholars verified each report with a chain of authorities(isnad), going back, as far as possible, to the Prophet himself. Razi, in 327 AH, wrote Kitab al-jarh wat ta`dil, which was a book of details about the lives of traditionists, or authorities, who had transmitted hadith.

When deciding the degree of authenticity of a text, scholars examined chains of transmission from three points of view. The number of transmitters, rawi, had to represent all of the generations up to the classical compilers, and had to narrate a single report. If authenticity was absolutely assured, the hadith was called a mutawatir hadith, and if authenticity was limited to a single chain, the hadith was called ahad hadith. The question of the credibility of transmitters gave rise to an extensive biographical investigation in which the individual narrators were judged according to their personal qualities and professional achievements. Ilm al-rijal, the science of transmitters, was created for this purpose. The continuity of the chains, ranging from uninterrupted isnad going back to the Prophet, to chains presenting various interruptions, was the third point of view. After the scholars examined these hadith, they placed the hadith into one of several categories. Sahih, or"sound" hadith were considered the most acceptable. Hasan, or "good" hadith were somewhat below sahih in excellence. In daif, or “weak” hadith, some links of isnad were missing or there were invalid authorities.

There were also other technical terms that were developed to classify hadith. Gharib, which refers to a hadith that is the only tradition known by a certain isnad. Majhul, refers to a hadith that contains an unknown link in its isnad. A hadith is mauquf if it does not trace back to the Prophet. A mu’allal hadith is a possibly weak hadith, and munkar and munqati’ refer to hadith which contain a weak link in their isnad. A mursal hadith is narrated by a man in the generation after the Prophet’s companions who directly quotes the Prophet, and a shadhdh hadith is from a single transmitter which contradicts another hadith. The broad range of hadith classifications demonstrates that many of the hadith that exist are not necessarily authentic–a fact which often creates problems within the Muslim community.
**
The nature of hadith text, matn, was also a criterion for testing authenticity of hadith material. Some hadith were fabricated by those who propagated false teachings, others were invented by those who would have a personal advantage, and still others were invented by pious people who were trying to expose heresy. Illogical and apparently exaggerated hadith were investigated to determine their authenticity, as well as those which contradicted the Qur’an. However, more emphasis was given to the isnad than the matn, since tampering with the text might have contaminated the body of hadith.

Hadith provide basic sources for the biography (sirah) of the Prophet, filling in details of events that were briefly mentioned in the Qur’an, and providing information about the personality, piety, and social behavior of the Prophet. Muhammad’s example in word and deed, as recorded in hadith, helps Muslims interpret the Qur’an and learn of circumstances when the Qur’anic verses were applied to certain situations and/or were revealed (asbab al-nuzul). The record of sunnah, or example of the Prophet, is one of the sources of Islamic law, shari`ah. The Qur’an (2:151) states that, “Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from amongst you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.” This ayah is interpreted by many scholars as referring to the hadith where it says “wisdom”; thus, the prophetic tradition is considered by many as a type of divine inspiration.(Mishkat al masabih, ii). One type of hadith that is actually separated from the other hadith because it is considered an extra-Qur’anic revelation is the hadith qudsi.

There have been many attacks on authenticity of hadith in the twentieth century. Orientalists such as Ignaz Goldziher and Joseph Schacht call into question the attribution of hadith to Prophet Muhammad and the reliability of the isnad. One Muslim scholar who has refuted these claims is Fuat Sezgin (Buhari’ nin kaynaklari hakkinda aristirmalar; Istanbul, 1956). Critics have also pointed out that Muslim hadith scholars have dwelt exclusively on isnad and have neglected the text of the hadith. Nur al-Din Itr, a Muslim scholar, proposes a new enterprise of research where balance is given to text and isnad as the solution. Muslim reformers such as Sayyid Ahmad Khan(d. 1898) and Muhammad Abduh(d. 1905) have questioned the traditional Muslim thinking that has refused to apply a rigorous critique to the hadith literature. Other Muslim scholars have discussed approaches to hadith literature. Fazlur Rahman(d. 1988) feels that scholars should study connections between Muhammad and the evolution of thought and practice and the growth of hadith. Mohammed Arkoun, of Paris, describes hadith as a “cultural expansion” of the Qur’an that needs to be understood by taking into account both the rational development of the community and its creative imagination.

The problems of hadith have led to many discussions over authenticity, and have led to the development of the complex science of hadith. The hadith serves as an additional link between Prophet Muhammad and the Qur’an. It is through Prophet Muhammad’s example, or sunnah, that the Muslims have learned how to apply the Qur’an to themselves. One can question the authenticity of the hadith which contradict the Qur’an; however, if one were to dismiss the whole corpus of hadith, the very foundations of practiced Islam would be threatened.

[Changez_like]

for those in denial of ahaadeeth, please kindly inform about how you say your salaat (prayers), how many times, at what times and how did you get that information?

don't answer like this "previous nations also used to pray, and everyone learned it from their ancestors" as it is as lame as it can be.

---

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[PakistaniAbroad]

PA! you seem to talk without knowledge and you have already given us the reason as to why you do such things in your own words in previous threads, which was, “you like to let your mind run wild”

When digging up dirt on the opponent to support your weak arguments, please be accurate in quoting. What I post in other forums is none of your business, but I guess old “Jamat-e-Islami” habits die hard. Here is part of what I said.

“I let my mind roam free”..

You wouldn’t know what “free” is or for that matter what a “mind” is so I didn’t expect anything better from you anyway.

so we need to excuse you and advise you that you should refrain from religious discussions for there is no room for people who let their mind run wild in such discussions as religion is based on sound “revealed texts”.

I quote more of ‘revealed text’ than anyone on the forum. You choose to propagate the concoctions of Mr. Abu (Paul) Huraira. To each their own.

1. the Bible is messed up because it contains records of kings and prophetic works combined therein, which were meant to be kept separate since such works are prone to corruption as those are not the revealed texts like the Torah or the Psalms.

The Kings and Prophetic Writings are in separte Books of The Bible. Do you think the Torah as it is today is uncorrupted?

2. Similarly the Gospel ( accounts written by 4 unknown authors) is combined with Acts of the Apostles (hadiths) and Epistles (letters written by Paul and others) which lead to the confusion of the Christians.

Excellent. You proved my point. Where Mr. Paul has elevated Jesus to the status of a God, and changed the focus of the religion from God to a man who supposedly died for everyone’s sins.

But IN Islam, as you may have noted they are kept separate and hence NO room for misguidance. The Qur’an is the primary source and the hadiths the secondary source for information on Islam.

Do you think so? Ahl-e-Sunna consider Qur’an subject to interpretation through Hadith. Where they don’t find rulings in both they override Qur’an and uphold Hadith.. e.g… stoning as punishment of adultery.

Here The revelations “Qur’an” is intact in its original language and the Acts of the Prophet and his trusted companions are all kept separately as hadiths which have been meticulously categorized by our ancestors due to its nature.

Doesn’t Islam generally recommend careful scrutiny of accounts by means of witnesses. Where are the witnesses in case of “Ahd” hadiths? Why are their discrepencies in the wordings of the same hadiths narrated by different people? If one of them has narrated correctly then why isn’t the other labelled a liar or his/her memory weak enough to discard other narrations? Why are hadiths contrary to the Qur’anic message and spirit present in Sahih Books? I can litter this board with obscenities produced by the pens of miscreants in the name of “trusted companions”, yet more people read them instead of reading the Qur’an which has been declared difficult to understand and beyond the grasp of the average human being unless he learns it from some Mullah who can in turn distort the truth to suit his personal sectarian beliefs.

your problem seems to be the lack of knowledge in not being able to comprehend that even a 1000 years ago human capability to memorize and transmit information far exceeds our current state of memory, since we have vastly corrupted ourselves and our abilities due to indulgences of recent origin.

NONSENSE! Where’s the scientif proof for that? I can show you Hadiths which contain the words “rest I forgot” .. or “I forgot what else he said” etc.. still they get a place in the ‘sahih’ books.

What I am saying is that most of the earlier scriptures including the Bible were totally transmitted by memory, if you do the research you will find that the torah (ben Asher texts) in existent today can only be dated around 1008 AD and even the first printed Talmud came into existence only around 1520 AD…so wonder how those texts were preserved prior to that?

Once again.. do you think they have been trasmitted with absolute fidelity? Are they uncorrupted as they exist today? Manuscript tradition of the New Testament is non uniform. How can the compilations be accurate when at times not even all manuscripts have been used to compile the Bible?

Similarly the hadiths that you seem to doubt had been compiled by various collectors of hadiths who were direct eyewitnesses to those events and transmitted orally until it was compiled by others into written form.

Yes.. they are stories and should be treated as such. To consult when someone is writing history and to reconcile and crosscheck with latest archaelogical and other discoveries to determine their usefulness not to be considered the ‘other-source-of-law’ in religion.

Almost all critical historians reject hadith accounts as useless because of the time of their compilation.. unlike gullible muslims, claims of superhuman memory just don’t cut it in the real world.

I put it to you IF the Torah or even the Veda had been transmitted orally for centuries by memory alone without much errors, why would it be impossible for hadiths to be transmitted in that form for a few decades , when the entire Qur’an is being memorized and transmitted by memory even today?

You are now mixing the two. Are the Torah and Veda as accurate as the Qur’an? Are the Hadith accounts as accurate as the Qur’an?

The Qur’an is accurate because it’s Allah’s words, made easy for man to remember. ALSO early companions didn’t just rely on this ease of memorizing. They collected their writings and Abu Bakr compiled one. Tell me, if after the Prophet’s death, his ‘sayings’ were that important, why didn’t Abu Bakr compile them? In fact it’s known by ALL that there was a ban on writing Hadith; something which the Ahl-e-Sunna bunch will desperately try to cover up or come up with lame narrations stating it was lifted.

Well then how come there were no hadith mushifs compiled when Usman distributed the Qur’anic mushifs?? Afterall there was a greater need of ‘compiling’ for hadiths as not one person could narrate the entire sayings of the Prophet on his own.. compared to the Qur’an which was complete in each person’s memory and the few discrepancies were sorted out with mutual consensus and comparison with the actual writings by the Qur’an scribes.

Once again.. NO hadith book existed and I’m waiting for the evidence on written hadith compilation dating back to first half century hijarah.. there are NONE. Even for the Qur’an we find it very difficult to produce early versions but some papyrus are there around 30 Hijrah.

For Hadith, earliest manuscript is late first century Hijrah from a student of none other than Abu Huraira and without going into a critique of the personality, suffice to say the actual narrations used in those sahifa are NOT EXACTLY the same when they were compiled in ‘Sahih’.. thus proving the “Chinese Whispers” theory.

Ibrahim says; In other words you have decided to challenge your ancestors who preserved the sayings meticulously because you lacked sufficient wisdom as to how they have been preserved , categorized and transmitted.

I laugh in the general direction of that ‘meticulously’. I have read the so-called ‘sahih’ books.. and I can tell you there is nothing ‘meticulous’ about them. Anyone with an open mind can spot it immediately. Anyone with some knowledge of history, the political division of Islam, the conquest by war of Persia and their dislike of the religion will note their attack on Islam through these accounts.

Anyone with some common sense will laugh and discard narrations by narrators who suggest your eyes get zapped if you look up at the sky while praying! Anyone with an iota of sensibility will scoff at medieval interpretation of Allah’s divine and timeless commands, Anyone with a semblance of knowledge about Qur’anic text and it’s narration of history will consider narrators blashemic when they concoct stories about Musa and some stone running away with his clothes and imply that Qur’anic verses are talking about the same.

Second you are unaware of the fact that prior to what we have as compilations in book form by various collectors ( Bukhari, Muslim etc) they had been initially transmitted by the narrators , who are actual eye witnesses to those events by oral transmission . which you are unaware due to your own ignorance.

I’ll ignore your 2nd grader remarks on my ignorance and ask you a simple question.. why does Bukhari omit hadiths which Muslim includes and vice versa? If one rejects it.. shouldn’t the other too. ONE of them has to be wrong? which one? and similarly the six of them.. tell me if it’s so meticulous, then there can only be ONE truth. If one rejects a narrator.. why does the other report through him/her? Some oral transmission I must say

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You see even when the Prophet (pbuh) was amongst us , there were well established hadith transmitters who did the transmission orally to whoever enquired about various practices the most well known transmitters amongst them are the companions Abu Hurayra , Abdullah the son of Umar, Anas the son of Malik, Umm al-Mumininin Aishah, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Abu Said al-Khudri all of whom transmitted thousands sayings of the Prophet orally to the Muslims prior to it being compiled into book form where all of them were combined and sorted and categorized by the compilers

In the prophet’s life and immediately after that NO writings were allowed.. It all started later. Maybe there was a reason the Prophet didn’t want his own words to be collected? Maybe there was a reason the caliphs obeyed. However I couldn’t expect any different from people who believe that later companions of the companions of the Prophet have the authority to change religious laws.

Ibrahim says; You are being naive, the Qur’an was put into writing by the Prophet (pbuh) various people had maintained various passages of it in writing for their own use even as it was being orally transmitted by the Prophet (pbuh) . But the hadiths need not be put into writing immediately since the people present amongst them had immediate excess to what the Prophet said and did as they were eyewitnesses to those events . They did not foresee the need to put them into writing as some tom , dick and harries may come to insist they must, at some future date and time.

Don’t dodge the question. When the Prophet died why didn’t Abu Bakar collect Hadiths?? Each person on his own knew the full Qur’an if he were a Hafiz. Each person COULD NOT HAVE the entire Hadith collection at his disposal, hence neccessitating a compilation.. probably moreso than the Qur’an which was in complete writings with the scribes and also in it’s entirety in people’s memory. Why then no compilations? Even the last Caliph Ali didn’t compile them.. Why?

I have the answer. They were obeying the wishes of the Prophet and not propagating his sayings or else they’d have compiled his sayings fearing that with time people who have memorized them will get killed or go separate ways and it will be more difficult by day to invite all to sit and agree to one correct narration.

And the Prophet knew that he wasn’t explaining the Qur’an, Allah did in the Book revealed over 23 years.. plenty of time to cover all questions and topics and give rulings.

This is like having a teacher some few hundred years back , the teacher , shows the way and the students copy them into their memory and put them into practice . there were no video cams or lap tops are even “sheets of paper” being sold in the market for one to record an event other than by memory as it took place at that time frame. The Qur’an is an exception since that took 23 years to complete and those words were from Allah (swt) and had to be recorded as revealed in its various dialects , for which the Prophet (pbuh) had scribes to record.

Yes.. The ONLY thing to be recorded off the Prophet was the Qur’an. His own words weren’t law. He was to judge by the Qur’an, rule by the Qur’an and for later students Qur’an is still intact to learn and act on. For those interested in reading unverified accounts of the teacher’s life they can consult Hadiths at their peril.

For those more interested in passing the course with flying colours, the text book is still there with all the explanations.

[Hud 11:1] A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things):

This is why Allah told us what the exam would be from:

[an-Nahl 16:89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these – and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Allah swt) conveyed this repeatedly in the Qur’an

1. Obey Allah (swt) meaning you pbey what is being revealed in the Qur’an

2. Obey His Rasool (saw) meaning follow his foot steps and ways of life meaning obey his sunnah

3. Obey those charged with Authority meaning those that the Prophet (pbuh) chose as his companions to lead us in his absence and those that are learned in religious knowledge.

Oh and you’d so want to interpret it like you did.. Who gave you these interpretations? Aren’t these your own imagination? Are they correct because more people agree with it? Does Allah mention Sunnah? No, your words. Does Allah mention companions who Prophet chose? No. Your words. Does Allah even mention religious knowledge? No. You do.

Here’s the context

[an-Nisa’ 4:58] God doth command you to render back your Trusts to those to whom they are due; And when ye judge between man and man, that ye judge with justice: Verily how excellent is the teaching which He giveth you! For God is He Who heareth and seeth all things.

See.. it’s not about shaving beards or wearing silk.. it’s about matters of judgement between two men and the instruction is to judge with justice with what? with the teachings ALLAH gave. The Qur’an.

[an-Nisa’ 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Now is it clear? It’s about a system of governance. Not a system of Mullahcracy. Since the Prophet is not there, we have to obey those in charge among us who btw were not chosen by the Prophet as he is not here anymore. In a democratic setup however, such people are chosen by us to lead us by Allah’s Laws.

[an-Nisa’ 4:60] Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who declare that they believe in the revelations that have come to thee and to those before thee? Their (real) wish is to resort together for judgment (in their disputes) to the Evil One, though they were ordered to reject him. But Satan’s wish is to lead them astray far away (from the right).

More clear what we need to make judgements. Allah’s revelations ONLY.

And it continues

[an-Nisa’ 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

Hence it is you and your kind that have decided on your own to obey only what you deem fit according to your whims and fancies and doubt the Prophet (pbuh) and his ways due to your ignorance and inability to comprehend the message given in the Qur’an.

I’m obeying Allah and obeying his MESSENGER. Ahl-e-Sunnah and other sects will misuse this line to no end. Understand that it’s not about obeying the Prophet but obeying the Messenger. For knowledgable people it’s easy to understand the Qur’anic message given by use of different words. For those wishing to set up their own shops and become moderators of religion, there are plenty of opportunities to lead everyone astray.

The passages you quote from the Qur’an are out of context and I have already quoted numerous verses from the Qur’an , which tells you to OBEY THE PROPHET (pbuh), your contention is that, how will you know those are his works?

Oh really? how are they out of context.
Arguments and proofs.. not just empty statements. thanks.

And as usual, when it comes to the Qur’an, your ignorance knows no bounds. NOWHERE does Allah tells us to obey the Prophet. it’s obey the Messenger and yes, there is a difference.

That is simple because they have been preserved as his works anything that does not conform to the Qur’an will not be found therein. The hadiths are meant to show glimpses of the past as well as the future and the experiences and practices as realized by the prophet (pbuh). There are not written in lucid form as there belong to a time frame when such expressions were sufficient to convey what they were talking about. Current generations due to evolution may find some of the wording lacking , but that is not a problem for those who have the wisdom and knowledge to understand ancient vocabulary.

What vocabulary? What translation? and what Wisdom? How do you translate “satan breaking wind” differently with time?? how do you translate or interpret for that matter killing of a dog black or not? How do those with ‘knowledge of ancient vocabulary’ interpret drinking camel urine?

Really, who are we trying to deceive here? For someone who’s fallen of the back of the ignorance truck they are prophetic sayings. For people of real knowledge they are lame concoctions, fabricated historic incidents, absolutely nonsense future predictions and gross allegations to the character of a noble Prophet.

At the same times since there MUST be an opposing force for all Prophets (read the Qur’an) , be sure they will have invented their own hadiths to misguide the Muslims, but surely If you had put your faith in Allah (swt) and know that HE is the ONLY guide, He will surely show you the way to separate the truth from the false or fabricated hadiths.

Yes. thankfully He did.. and finally, after believing in these Books for years and studying them religiously I discovered their truth or the complete lack thereof.

No sensible parents would let their children read such accusations to the honourable Prophet propagated in the guise of religious piety and teachings.

As a rule of the thumb , NO authentic hadith will ever contradict the Qur’an.

Question. Do you consider the Sahih compilations to contain ALL authentic ahadith? Yes or No.

If not, isn’t the Ahl-e-Sunnah Sharia composed of these Six Books and then some?

It is a duty of every believer – man and woman to seek knowledge. If one dismisses the hadiths due to their own ignorance , they have lost a treasure chest of knowledge that had been preserved for them by their ancestors)

It is the sole duty as a Muslim to separate fact from fiction. Believing in ancestors is the BIGGEST mistake people have committed and the Qur’an is full of their accounts when they preferred to keep following what they found their parents doing and didn’t think for themselves.

[bani Isra’il 17:36] And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that

May Allah give us the wisdom and will to follow Him ALONE and the knowledge to understand His Message in the Qur’an.

---

This Space For Rent

[FactFinder]

PA!

Two commnets off the cuff!

Either you are so off track that only Allah can guide you.

Or, you have an agenda to create misunderstanding amongst those who are not as well versed in Islam as they should be. In his case you will also be responsible for their being misled.

The amount of time you spent in writing this post could have been used more constructively in doing something positive. Hadeeth collection is a science ad has been done meticulously. I do not have the time to disprove you wrong, but any person having any doubts may go and do research and find the holes in your post. I shall be willing to provide links.

A friend of mine on another forum uses some very precise words for what you are doing. I wish he were here as he particularly dislikes long posts that are not worth the space they are written on.

---

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 20, 2001).]

[faceup]

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**PA!

Two commnets off the cuff!

Either you are so off track that only Allah can guide you.

Or, you have an agenda to create misunderstanding amongst those who are not as well versed in Islam as they should be. In his case you will also be responsible for their being misled.

The amount of time you spent in writing this post could have been used more constructively in doing something positive. Hadeeth collection is a science ad has been done meticulously. I do not have the time to disprove you wrong, but any person having any doubts may go and do research and find the holes in your post. I shall be willing to provide links.

A friend of mine on another forum uses some very precise words for what you are doing. I wish he were here as he particularly dislikes long posts that are not worth the space they are written on.**
[/quote]

Personnaly, PA did a fabulous job. Keep up the good work.

FF,
the fact is - it is high time that your extremist creed disappeared. We don't want your kind in this global village and I speak on behalf of all Humanity that places civilized behaviour over & above dogmas that contravenes civilized behaviour.

Make a note of what I said earlier:
Reform and become tolerant or have those qualities shoved down your throat.

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
When digging up dirt on the opponent to support your weak arguments, please be accurate in quoting. What I post in other forums is none of your business, but I guess old "Jamat-e-Islami" habits die hard. Here is part of what I said. "I let my mind roam free"..You wouldn't know what "free" is or for that matter what a "mind" is so I didn't expect anything better from you anyway.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Salaams to all,

PA! Tsk, tsk, unable to face the facts, huh ? How would I be digging up dirt , when I am only quoting what you stated in “this forum” (gupsup : religion, not any other forum) in the month of Ramadan ( that was not too long back)

Let me re quote you “word for word” since you want me to be accurate in quoting you.

PA WROTE:
** I let my mind roam free ** and am not chained down by tradition and dogmas.

My mission is to combat ignorance and tradition ** and let free thought rule.** I'll be alone for a long part of it.. ** but sooner or later.. someone else will open their mind, break the shackles and join in thinking freely.**

Ibrahim says: meaning PA is here to trip people and he knows that No one will believe him, but some may eventually end up being fooled by him sooner or later, which is what the shaitan also does by whispering into the hearts of man.

Let me also be accurate in stating what you have conveyed to us in this forum so far**

1) You consider the Kalima used by Muslims for 1422 years to be wrong

2) The correct Kalima according to PA should be, “aslima li rabbil aalameen”

3) Saying Muhammadur Rasoolullah with the kalima is shirk

4) Saying Muhammadur Rasoolullah is invoking the Prophet ( pbuh)

5) Azaan is wrong**

Now how does this contradict what I wrote (“you like to let your mind run wild”) , judging from the above assertions you have made so far?

Frankly speaking , had you been around a few hundred years back, even your own parents would have buried you for good but Islam has been weakened , hence evil is pervading in various forms.

[quote]
I quote more of 'revealed text' than anyone on the forum. You choose to propagate the concoctions of Mr. Abu (Paul) Huraira. To each their own.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Firstly, what is the use in quoting revealed texts when you do not understand them?

Let me proof how ignorant you are.

You see you just abused the name of a respected person, a pious Muslim who had the honor to be present amongst the Prophet (pbuh) .

What does that tell us about you?

a) you do not practice or understand what you say or claim is your guide.

Read!

49: 11 O ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): ** nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames:** Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness (to be used of one) after he has believed: ** And those who do not desist are (Indeed) doing wrong. **

8: 46 And obey Allah and His apostle; ** and fall into no disputes lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: for Allah is with those who patiently persevere. **

Ibrahim says: PA! Your failure is due to the lies you utter, even though you are being warned and for that reason ** Allah (swt) had placed hypocrisy into your heart . **

Read!

9: 77 So He hath put as a consequence ** hypocrisy into their hearts (to last) till the day whereon they shall meet Him:** because they broke their covenant with Allah and ** because they lied (again and again).**

Now let me warn you .

Read!

2: 284 To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. ** Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it Allah calleth you to account for it.** He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.

Ibrahim says: It is sad, but I do pity you and feel sorry for you, since even in this forum , where none knows your identity you had to use a paper bag to cover yourself. Maybe yu feel comfortable hiding due to the rancor you harbor in your heart.

Incidentally did you know the poster “faceup” ( who behaves just like you) also used to cover himself with a paper bag, until some one aksed him why he /she needed to do that! , I guess Allah (swt) reveals people’s nature for all to see, even in this forum. Maybe you two should tie a knot or something, both of your are ideally suited for each other. ( just kidding not trying to slander you both)

[quote]
The Kings and Prophetic Writings are in separte Books of The Bible. Do you think the Torah as it is today is uncorrupted?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; The English Bible is considered ONE book with numerous chapters ( depending on the denomination) The combination of all these books under one cover is the reason why the contradictions become evidently clear . Your question concerning the Torah is naïve, you might only ask this , if you had failed to understand the Qur’an.

[quote]
Do you think so? Ahl-e-Sunna consider Qur'an subject to interpretation through Hadith. Where they don't find rulings in both they override Qur'an and uphold Hadith.. e.g... stoning as punishment of adultery.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: you keep making assertions and contradicting your own statements above…
“Where they don't find rulings in both they override Qur'an and uphold Hadith.”
How is that possible when you say both does not have rulings ( meaning nothing is found in both books) how to uphold the hadith? You sound so pathetically silly !

[quote]
Doesn't Islam generally recommend careful scrutiny of accounts by means of witnesses. Where are the witnesses in case of "Ahd" hadiths?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what do you suppose the compilers of the hadiths persevered for, you suppose, all that was collected as hadiths are published by them? Man, your problem seems to be you do not have the desire to find out how the hadiths were categorized but as you said you like to “let your mind roam freely”

[quote]
Why are their discrepencies in the wordings of the same hadiths narrated by different people?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Your question can be best answered by attending a press conference by yourself and recording it with a tape recorder , after which look at the same news being reported by different new papers . Hope you get the picture. The very reason why two or more narrations of a hadith is recorded and compiled is on account of what that person was aware concerning that particular matter and how he narrated it.

This does not mean it is a discrepancy but a confirmation of what the person who is narrating has heard, sometimes through another source, where he or someone had forgotten some parts, the hadith will say so or someone else had added something to that hadith ( when it was being discussed amongst them) it will be written as such.

In other words some hadiths can be incomplete and others may have more details with additional discussions on that matter, hence it is imperative for jurists to know all relevant hadiths concerning a particular matter before they rule based on them.

This is the same with the Qur’an or any other revealed scripture, details of various issues will be conveyed in varying chapters ( due to it be revealed when needed) and one must cross reference to get the complete picture concerning that matter.

[quote]
If one of them has narrated correctly then why isn't the other labelled a liar or his/her memory weak enough to discard other narrations?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: People do not become a liar because they only reveal what they know or failed to reveal some parts due to their inabilities to remember accurately ( this is the case even today) . For your info Imam Bukhari collected over 300, 000 hadiths but reduced it to 7000 because of repetitions, weak chains, limited info as compared to others, errors etc , etc. In other words extensive research had been done by him and he was much closer to the source and time frame to undertake such an effort . your follies are based on the lack of knowledge and distrust you have for others.

When Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh) had conveyed that you should trust a believer, here you are trying to teach us, that you must doubt them.

[quote]
Why are hadiths contrary to the Qur'anic message and spirit present in Sahih Books?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: No authentic hadith will run contrary to what is being revealed in the Qur’an, it is as simple as that. Go and ask a hindu he will tell you the same , the hadiths are same as smrti’s in Hinduism and when a smrti contradicts a Vedic verse it will be rejected as false outright because the veda is considered revelation just like the Qur’an.

[quote]
I can litter this board with obscenities produced by the pens of miscreants in the name of "trusted companions", yet more people read them instead of reading the Qur'an which has been declared difficult to understand and beyond the grasp of the average human being unless he learns it from some Mullah who can in turn distort the truth to suit his personal sectarian beliefs.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; I thought that was what you have been doing thus far, I mean you were the guy who posted false hadiths, whilst claiming you were not sure of their accuracy but yet they prove your point that they are untrustworthy!

[quote]
NONSENSE! Where's the scientif proof for that? I can show you Hadiths which contain the words "rest I forgot" .. or "I forgot what else he said" etc.. still they get a place in the 'sahih' books.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; huh! Nonsense to you ? sure it is, for you are the person who is silly enough to argue that Muslims cannot remember one verse (their kalima) , did it ever occur to you to put forward scientific proof that Muslims forgot their kalima for 1422 years for yours assertions? and you just dropped from heaven to teach them their new kalima?
I already explained to you concerning why “ what was forgotten” is recorded as forgotten in hadith, read again above if you need to refresh your memory.

[quote]
Once again.. do you think they have been trasmitted with absolute fidelity? Are they uncorrupted as they exist today? Manuscript tradition of the New Testament is non uniform. How can the compilations be accurate when at times not even all manuscripts have been used to compile the Bible?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: you are missing the point! Prior to any availability of parchments or writing materials they ( revealed texts) were solely transmitted by memory. For your info out of 20,000 NT manuscripts , NO TWO is identical , yet they had managed to compile a Gospel out of it, that is their works, that is not what I am saying. I am conveying to you Allah (swt) made it easy for revealed texts to be memorized in earlier times, this can be proven by looking at Muslim brethren who have been memorizing surahs and hadiths without much difficulty even today

[quote]
Yes.. they are stories and should be treated as such. To consult when someone is writing history and to reconcile and crosscheck with latest archaelogical and other discoveries to determine their usefulness not to be considered the 'other-source-of-law' in religion.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; that is your folly, since stories are not recorded as hadiths have been, hadiths provide a wealth of knowledge on how various problem and matters were resolved when Islam was very much practiced without adulteration . hence the path shown/practiced by the Prophet (pbuh) whom Allah (swt) had chosen and guided is the path that Muslims should/must follow and use in formulating their boundary markers

[quote]
Almost all critical historians reject hadith accounts as useless because of the time of their compilation.. unlike gullible muslims, claims of superhuman memory just don't cut it in the real world.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; LOL! you make me laugh, historians you say? You must be too silly to realize historians came only recently and they peddle what they want because that is their lively hood. BTW ask them to go tell the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or the Christians to discard their scriptures because all of them were written very much later .

[quote]
You are now mixing the two. Are the Torah and Veda as accurate as the Qur'an? Are the Hadith accounts as accurate as the Qur'an?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; you are missing my point, I am asking you to ponder as to how they were able to compile their books , when they are No originals for them at the time they were compiled. Accuracy is not what I am pointing to you but the memory that they had for the Bible books combined is three times bigger than the Qur’an and the Vedic collections can far exceed the bible.

[quote]
The Qur'an is accurate because it's Allah's words, made easy for man to remember. ALSO early companions didn't just rely on this ease of memorizing. They collected their writings and Abu Bakr compiled one. Tell me, if after the Prophet's death, his 'sayings' were that important, why didn't Abu Bakr compile them?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: They was no need for anyone compiling the ways, practices and sayings of the prophet (pbuh) into book form because they were all present and all of them were practicing what they had been taught , heard or seen and spreading them directly to people who came into contact with them ( which is what we call hadiths today) .

The need for compilation only arises when they is decline in the number of people who were eyewitness.

This is even evident in the compilation of the Qur’an

[quote]
In fact it's known by ALL that there was a ban on writing Hadith; something which the Ahl-e-Sunna bunch will desperately try to cover up or come up with lame narrations stating it was lifted.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; tell us where you got this info from? Source please? Don’t give me hadiths, I want eyewitness accounts with scientific proof! ( turning the table on you)

[quote]
Well then how come there were no hadith mushifs compiled when Usman distributed the Qur'anic mushifs?? Afterall there was a greater need of 'compiling' for hadiths as not one person could narrate the entire sayings of the Prophet on his own.. compared to the Qur'an which was complete in each person's memory and the few discrepancies were sorted out with mutual consensus and comparison with the actual writings by the Qur'an scribes.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; you are talking without knowledge ,

read!

75: 16 Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

17 ** It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:**
18 But when We have promulgated it follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
19 Nay more it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):

Hence your suggestion of discrepancies and mutual consensus are due to lack of knowledge as to how Allah (swt) brought about its collection.

The hadiths on the other hand need not be collected and their veracity is clear in the hadiths itself, for one will be able to note that so and so said such and such because so and so enquired about such and such.

That is the essence of the hadiths, they convey what took place at that time frame when one enquires about certain details concerning Islamic way of life. The hadith does not include what people did afterwards but only what took place within the life time of the Prophet (pbuh) and his chosen companions . So it is not a history book or a story book.

[quote]
Once again.. NO hadith book existed and I'm waiting for the evidence on written hadith compilation dating back to first half century hijarah.. there are NONE. Even for the Qur'an we find it very difficult to produce early versions but some papyrus are there around 30 Hijrah.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; What was conveyed through memory will remain as such and need not be put into writing since people at the time frame did not carry papyrus or parchments in abundance with them . Second your info is based on what is known today not what was destroyed by the crusaders in their rampage.

[quote]
For Hadith, earliest manuscript is late first century Hijrah from a student of none other than Abu Huraira and without going into a critique of the personality, suffice to say the actual narrations used in those sahifa are NOT EXACTLY the same when they were compiled in 'Sahih'.. thus proving the "Chinese Whispers" theory.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; how do you know, it was not exactly the same? If you already are aware some hadiths had been in existent in 1 century hijrah, why are you claiming that it was not necessary and had not been in use by Muslims?

[quote]
I laugh in the general direction of that 'meticulously'. I have read the so-called 'sahih' books.. and I can tell you there is nothing 'meticulous' about them.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; I should be laughing at you as the rest of the Muslim world would be, since you are the joker who claims the kalima practiced by Muslims for 1422 years is false, how do you expect anyone to believe you when you say you have read sahih books. Maybe you expected to find some interesting stories, since you believe hadiths are stories. That is your folly, how can I help you when you lack common senses to understand what hadiths are?

[quote]
Anyone with an open mind can spot it immediately. Anyone with some knowledge of history, the political division of Islam, the conquest by war of Persia and their dislike of the religion will note their attack on Islam through these accounts.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; I would have to doubt that, when it comes from you. I hope I do not have to repeat the reason why. BTW who is attacking Islam in the hadiths?

[quote]
Anyone with some common sense will laugh and discard narrations by narrators who suggest your eyes get zapped if you look up at the sky while praying! Anyone with an iota of sensibility will scoff at medieval interpretation of Allah's divine and timeless commands, Anyone with a semblance of knowledge about Qur'anic text and it's narration of history will consider narrators blashemic when they concoct stories about Musa and some stone running away with his clothes and imply that Qur'anic verses are talking about the same.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; you seem to be blessed with follies but If you want to be sensible tell us which hadith you are referring to when you talk, just don’t ramble, rant and rave!

[quote]
I'll ignore your 2nd grader remarks on my ignorance and ask you a simple question.. why does Bukhari omit hadiths which Muslim includes and vice versa? If one rejects it.. shouldn't the other too. ONE of them has to be wrong? which one? and similarly the six of them.. tell me if it's so meticulous, then there can only be ONE truth. If one rejects a narrator.. why does the other report through him/her? Some oral transmission I must say
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Do you honestly know how many eyewitness they could have been for any event? Imagine if 10,000 took part in an event and 10,000 narrated that event as they saw it, do you suppose all will be using the same words , same style, same content? Hence narrators can use different words and can have more or less details. What the compilers did was to mainly collect from those that were considered most reliable narrators , whilst leaving out those that they saw lacking in content. Remember nothing comes to pass unless Allah (swt) has allowed it and the compilers did their best to include all that they felt was noteworthy whilst removing what was questionable or lacking it details.

The effort that hadith compilers had undertaken in good faith, was to sort out the numerous repetitions and rely more upon those transmitters who were known for their accuracy in transmission. They did not add and fabricate their own hadiths. May Allah (swt) bless them for their immense effort in preserving these details which has kept Muslims aright and not conjecture at will like you have ended up doing out of your own folly.

It is a blessing for Muslims we have a number of compilers who collected the hadiths since now we can verify the content through each collector to see that the essence and accuracy of the narrations are pretty much intact. IF we had only one collector, people like you will find ways and means to slander them in order to deny their works.

Just like the shia’s who slander the companions in order to deny the Qur’an as their Qur’an which is three times bigger is kept by the last imam who disappeared with it in a cave.

To be honest they are right in one way because the dead sea scrolls which is three times bigger than the Qur’an was indeed found in a cave. ( so you can see where their traditions originates from)

[quote]
In the prophet's life and immediately after that NO writings were allowed.. It all started later. Maybe there was a reason the Prophet didn't want his own words to be collected? Maybe there was a reason the caliphs obeyed. However I couldn't expect any different from people who believe that later companions of the companions of the Prophet have the authority to change religious laws.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Tell us where or how you know that NO writings were allowed? Source !!!

[quote]
Don't dodge the question. When the Prophet died why didn't Abu Bakar collect Hadiths??
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Who do you think Aisha ( ra) was? Do you know the amount of hadiths that are recorded from her?

[quote]
Each person on his own knew the full Qur'an if he were a Hafiz. Each person COULD NOT HAVE the entire Hadith collection at his disposal, hence neccessitating a compilation.. probably moreso than the Qur'an which was in complete writings with the scribes and also in it's entirety in people's memory. Why then no compilations? Even the last Caliph Ali didn't compile them.. Why?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Ask Allah (swt) as to why each event takes place as per His will and not according to your whims and fancies.

[quote]
I have the answer. They were obeying the wishes of the Prophet and not propagating his sayings or else they'd have compiled his sayings fearing that with time people who have memorized them will get killed or go separate ways and it will be more difficult by day to invite all to sit and agree to one correct narration.
And the Prophet knew that he wasn't explaining the Qur'an, Allah did in the Book revealed over 23 years.. plenty of time to cover all questions and topics and give rulings.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; You answer is only good for you , for Muslims we put our trust in Allah (swt) and He does not mislead us nor leave us to stray according to our whims and fancies as you have desired to do so.

[quote]
Yes.. The ONLY thing to be recorded off the Prophet was the Qur'an. His own words weren't law. He was to judge by the Qur'an, rule by the Qur'an and for later students Qur'an is still intact to learn and act on. For those interested in reading unverified accounts of the teacher's life they can consult Hadiths at their peril.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Yes , you are FREE to wonder and wander at your peril, but for Muslims who chose to follow the Path that had been trodden by the Prophet (pbuh) the hadiths provide the details that they can set the boundary markers around and not stray as you have been doing due to your negation of the hadiths.

PA! Snipped the rest of your foolish questions, not that the above were any better but here you are disputing the Prophet Muhammad is not the messenger of Allah (swt) , I am stumped at you folly and if I carried on any further , I may seriously loss my cool after patiently answering all the above.

Read This and ponder over it for your own sake!

4: 69 ** All who obey Allah and the Apostle** are in the company of those on whom is the ** Grace of Allah of the Prophets (who teach) ** the sincere (lovers of truth) the witnesses (who testify) and the righteous (who do good): ah! what a beautiful fellowship!

69 Wa may yuti'illa_ha war rasu_la fa ula_'ika ma'al lazina an'amalla_hu 'alaihim minan nabiyyina was siddiqina wasy syuhada_'i was sa_lihin(a), wa hasuna ula_'ika rafiqa_(n).

Was salaam

** When a child says, “everyone is allowed to”, it is usually based on a survey of one! **

[Shaheen]

'There will be a man with full stomach, reclining on his pillow, who will hear a command from me and say, 'Let the judge between us (in this matter) be Allah's Book: we obey whatever we find in it.' [Know that] indeed, I have been given the Book and, with it, that which is similar to it (the Sunnah).' [Ahmad, Aboo Daawood, Saheeh ul-Jaami`]

---

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).

(Sura: Aalay-Imran; Ayat:110)

**Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!**

---

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
(And yes it's a **MALE* Shaheen ;-)*

[faceup]

[quote]
Originally posted by Shaheen:
**'There will be a man with full stomach, reclining on his pillow, who will hear a command from me and say, 'Let the judge between us (in this matter) be Allah's Book: we obey whatever we find in it.' [Know that] indeed, I have been given the Book and, with it, that which is similar to it (the Sunnah).' [Ahmad, Aboo Daawood, Saheeh ul-Jaami`]

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).(Sura: Aalay-Imran; Ayat:110)

**
[/quote]

Shaheen,

you should write more often, that is as Shaheen!

QUESTION
1) Tell me where, in the Islamic world, may I find this ** "best nation' as per the above aayath** or,
do you suggest that all Islamic world as is - is that "best Nation (HQ)"

2) The ayath says that we muslims *"advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL" *

Pray - tell me what "righteousness" would that be? or,
Is it possible that we have crossed over to "EVIL" and peddling that as Righteous?

Let me end by citing this and see how this may help in answering the above 2 questions:
** "To know Allah is to know yourself!"**

Look forward to your response and of course, please consult your minions of scholars before answering.

[FactFinder]

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** 1) Tell me where, in the Islamic world, may I find this "best nation' as per the above aayath or, do you suggest that all Islamic world as is - is that "best Nation (HQ)"**
[/quote]

The problem with some people is that they have blinders and cannot see anything other than the obvious.

Every Muslim who follows the Qur'an and Sunnah is within the definition of 'best nation'.

**
[quote]
2) The ayath says that we muslims "advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL" Pray - tell me what "righteousness" would that be? or, Is it possible that we have crossed over to "EVIL" and peddling that as Righteous?**
[/quote]

Again, lack of understanding of a basic obligation.

Advocating righteousnesss is to encourage people to follow the ahkamat* and do things that we are required to do. And forbidding evil is preventing them from doing what they are prohibited to do. Every Muslim who knows is required to do amr bil maaroof nahy anil munkar.

**
[quote]
"To know Allah is to know yourself!"**
[/quote]

You can only know Allah by knowing His Message. This is through the revealed texts and associating with scholars, by personal contacts or through their writings.

---

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.