I know rooh is a concept, but is that a manifestation of human consciousness and the brain, or does it have a seperate actual existence distinct from the physical organs?
for example does a brain dead or mentally deranged person have a rooh? if so is it also insane?
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
Islamically, Rooh is as physical as much as an angel is physical because both have same root of origin "Amr-e-Rabbi" .... and Quran stops there and there is no other explanation of what it is.... in Surah Qayamah, it is mentioned how Rooh comes to the throat at the last breath...
Then, in surah Al a'raaf there is mention of Aalam-e-Arwaah on Youm-ul-Alast when an oath was taken to all the Arwaahs... and an hadeeth mentions about this further by stating that even those arwah were provided a tiny body at that time...
There are two places mention in Quran and explained in ahaadeeth that rooh of a good person goes to Aa'laa Illiyeen and the bad person goes to Sijjeen.... there is much more detail about how those two places look, in various ahaadeeth...
Wallah-O-Aalam
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
Rooh does have physical existense and play the leading role inside our bodies... Its our soul which actually do things while our body just acts on the orders of Soul......
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
many of our actions netdevil can be mapped to specific parts of the brain. does the imply that the physical organ of the soul is the brain?
the reason this is important is the debate over cloning/stem cells. Christian dogma places the soul in physical terms rather than metaphorical for identity/personage (which is a less scientifically conflicting view). which is why you run into this puzzle:
You may have heard of advances in technology for stem cells where scientists were able to obtain stem cell like characteristics from skin cells by turning off certain genes, something that ostensibly settled the qualms of the religious lobby since no embryos were involved. However you have this problem then:
So are these skin cells carrying souls then? or is the soul something that only manifests itself once you attain sentience?
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
Very interesting topic to discuss. From what I have read in the Quran and ahadith, soul does have an existence, being physical is relative though. Obviously in our faith, souls will be put back into their physical bodies on Qayamah. What I perceive is that souls cannot experience material sensations i.e. pain, pleasure, being high or depressed. These sensations are tied with the body or carnal existence of humans. If souls could experience these sensations, it would not make sense to us to be put back into our bodily forms on Qayamah. What would be interesting to understand is whether our soul develops alongwith the human body as well. Or is the soul we get when we are born the same when we die. If it is, then should be collate consciencesness to the development of our knowledge alongwith our physical existence. Obviously, infants and adults differ on levels of conscienceness.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
thats y they have innocent souls and we dont:halo:
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
A soul can only enter the embryo by the Will of Allah (SWT). A soul is not a learner, but an entity with some knowledge. Knowledge in this world is the extent of knowledge that we have remembered or brought forth. Knowledge comes from within.
As for when the soul enters. Assuming stem cells can be made to undertake embryo like behaviour. Then according to Islam the soul enters the embryo when it is probably many weeks before sentience, but clearly it is also not at the zygote stage either. If for a normal embryo you follow the opinion that the soul enters the foetus when it is 40 days old, then by cross-comparing the level of development of a stem cell induced embryo would render the answer to your question. Peace
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
so it s physical naa??
plz tell us in detail of it cuz i dont know
wats the science behind it??
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
so it s physical naa??
plz tell us in detail of it cuz i dont know
wats the science behind it??
Peace Sister
Another name for soul is the spirit. Physical and Spiritual are domains which are by definition exclusive from one another. The soul is what characterises the person in the spiritual domain and the body is what does so in the physical. The mind or consciousness is what bridges these two domains.
Having said all this it is quite possible for the soul and the body to occupy the same space. In fact our souls are bound to our bodies. This may make it seem like the soul is physical, but not really. To provide an analogy think of the end of pin and focus on it. Your attention occupies the space of the end of the pin, in fact you can have millions of entities capable of focussing their attention on the same pin end all at the same time. Millions of attentive minds occupy that space, but in physical terms they do not. In the same or similar sense our bodies are occupied by our souls, but if we try to find the soul in the body we will not be able to do it.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
i know that:smack:
but i asked bout embryo thingy
wat is it u ppl r talking bout??
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
Peace Sister
Please read this first:
Now this:
If the mother is not in danger, it would be unlawful to abort the baby after 120 days of conception, the age of ensoulment. to develop into a full human being. The Prophet Mohammad is quoted as saying: “The human being begins life in the mother’s womb as a germ for forty days. The germ turns into a clot during the following forty days, the clot into a lump of flesh during the following forty days. Then an angel is sent to blow the spirit into it and note down its means of living, its life-span, its actions and its fate, whether good or bad.” These stages of feotal development are also given in the following Quranic verses: “We first created man from an essence of clay: then made him a living germ in a safe enclosure (the womb). The germ We made a clot of, and the clot a lump of flesh. This We fashioned into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh and then brought him forth as another creation. Blessed be God, the noblest of creators.” (al-Mu’minoon: 12- 14)
The Hanbali school of Islamic law are of the opinion that forty days is the critical point at which a foetus is fully formed, and do not allow abortion after that age .
Some scholars are known to disallow abortion once fertilisation takes place in the womb. Among them are the following:
http://www.islamset.com/bioethics/aids1/rights.html
According to science the Carnegie Stage 16 occurs around 40 days of foetal development.
Head and Neck
Brain is well marked by its cerebral hemispheres. The hindbrain, which is responsible for heart regulation, breathing and muscle movements, begins to develop.
This corresponds with the nufs/soul relationship. Rather than ruh the nufs word is linked with the word blood and in the 40 day stage the blood begins to circulate in a fashion due to the formation of the hindbrain that controls the heart for that function.
The ayah can be interpreted that the equal periods of time are nested within the 40 days or are equal to the 40 days each or are equal to each other but occur after the initial 40 day start period. Though I am not Hanbali it seems their opinion coincides with established embryology, however, interesting things happen between 40 and 120 days, the heart beat can only be detected after 12 weeks by external instruments.
Around 14 weeks is the time when gender is clear for view, but gender really sets in at post 40 days. Post 50 days the gender can be differentiated with sophisticated equipment.
And later at around 16 weeks, Visible Embryo 16 - 17 Weeks Post Ovulation, circulation becomes fully functional and fingerprints begin to develop.
It is my understanding that the ruh is put into the body when blood is beginning to renew itself with oxygenated blood from the mother.
Anyway whether it is 40 days or 120 the fact is Islam does not acknowledge the early embryo as a living human soul, but one that is given a spirit after some biological process have begun. So the question about the stem cell is the same for a gamete the same for a zygote. If Allah (SWT) Wills it He can give us the technology to change non sex cells into sex cells and He can make them continue on to living entities.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
:salam:
Nice reply. Last para is what really matters.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
psyah you give very confusing replies. First you say that the spirit and the body are by definition exclusive and that the spirit/soul consists of characteristics someone has in the spiritual world.
then you link that with the flowing of blood around the hindbrain in the embryo, after 40/50/120 days. presumably the flowing of blood indicates a physical nature in the soul that is much more of a dependant relationship than the focusing of attention on a particular object analogy would indicate.
if it is the spiritual characteristics of a person, then those can be traced to specific parts of the brain. Infact spiritual characteristics, for example behaviour towards parents, can be altered by messing about with particular parts of the brain. which again indicates a physical nature of the soul.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
soul is a quality of the body. It does not have a *disembodied *existence.
Islam talks about the physical resurrection of the body on the Day of the Judgement, not disembodied soul.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
soul is a quality of the body. It does not have a *disembodied *existence. Islam talks about the physical resurrection of the body on the Day of the Judgement, not disembodied soul.
When we die our soul is taken, disembodied from us. Just read up on Illiyeen and Sijjiyeen.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
The best I understand is that the soul is embodied when the biological organism is capable of functioning and it is disembodied when the biological organism is no longer capable of sustaining its functions or biological existence (any cause of death, not just blood in specific). While the soul occupies the body, it definitely influences its decisions, which in turn manipulate bodily functions. Soul is the only internal mechanism that triggers our behavior or actions though external influences can also trigger different behavior and actions from us, though this is not soul intervention. The influence of the soul depends on the strength of the biological body, and when the body cannot resist external influences, the soul cannot do much. This is what I so far understand.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
my question to you then is how does the soul trigger any behaviour or actions? I can substitute in the above post the word "magician" or "dragon" and be just as clear about it. But there needs to be some physical, identifiable component which the soul uses to issue these actionable instructions.
certain brain centers for example control lewdness, others play a part in moral judgements. If a non-corporal soul controls those decisions, why do specific parts of the brain activate when one makes those decisions?
or do you see those areas of the brain that are activated in moral/spiritual decisions as basically buttons the soul presses?
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
my question to you then is how does the soul trigger any behaviour or actions? I can substitute in the above post the word "magician" or "dragon" and be just as clear about it. But there needs to be some physical, identifiable component which the soul uses to issue these actionable instructions.
certain brain centers for example control lewdness, others play a part in moral judgements. If a non-corporal soul controls those decisions, why do specific parts of the brain activate when one makes those decisions?
or do you see those areas of the brain that are activated in moral/spiritual decisions as basically buttons the soul presses?
Truth be told, I don't think anyone has a definitive answer on how the soul interacts with our human body, we all have our own assumptions.
I didn't know about the parts of the brain that control lewdness and decision making. Makes me wonder then, are all souls (infant and adult alike) the same having nothing to do with human behavior but just the essential life giving ingredient to a biological organism capable of carrying it.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
yes there are moral centers in the brain, people have experimented with folks who got into accidents and completely changed their personalities. Even alcohol, which damages/numbs parts of the brain and lowers your inhibitions (read capacity to make moral judgements).
it could be the life giving ingredient. I always wondered if scientists/philosophers were able to specifically identify when exactly one becomes "alive". but yes that nebulous idea of life is certainly a more attractive/scientifically plausible meaning of the soul.
I also think the soul as consciousness/sentience makes sense.
Re: Does the soul have a physical meaning in Islam?
my question to you then is how does the soul trigger any behaviour or actions? I can substitute in the above post the word "magician" or "dragon" and be just as clear about it. But there needs to be some physical, identifiable component which the soul uses to issue these actionable instructions.
certain brain centers for example control lewdness, others play a part in moral judgements. If a non-corporal soul controls those decisions, why do specific parts of the brain activate when one makes those decisions?
or do you see those areas of the brain that are activated in moral/spiritual decisions as basically buttons the soul presses?
Peace bro ravage
In Arabic there are two words which essentially are translated into soul. They are nufs and ruh. The nufs is the lifesource whereas the ruh is the living essence, the entity. The nufs therefore becomes the intermediary between what the ruh gains from life and what the body gains from knowledge. Therefore if the body is physical, the ruh is of spiritual nature then the element that bridges the two is metaphysical. The nufs. The instinctual on one side of the spectrum to inspirational on the other side are perhaps the closest we can interact with the fitrah which is a benchmark of conduct imprinted on the layer of interpretation between the nufs and the ruh. The intelligent processes become increasingly distant from the natural way - fitrah, because they are then subject to our freedom of choice, whereas instinct and inspiration are not.
Death is what nufs experiences
I will explain later, but if I copy every action that I see you do, does it mean you are making me do those actions?
Truth be told, I don't think anyone has a definitive answer on how the soul interacts with our human body, we all have our own assumptions.
I didn't know about the parts of the brain that control lewdness and decision making. Makes me wonder then, are all souls (infant and adult alike) the same having nothing to do with human behavior but just the essential life giving ingredient to a biological organism capable of carrying it.
Peace bro USResident
You are right no one really knows, but I think arguments are favoured to the non-measurable soul angle. If we take a dead person and use electrodes and life systems to operate him he will possibily be able to walk, may be talk, etc. However, the difference between him and a living person will be that he has to go around with all that support. The ruh must be a support system a place some 'power' is coming from that enables the body. The aspects of lewdness and such should really be directed at the nufs.
yes there are moral centers in the brain, people have experimented with folks who got into accidents and completely changed their personalities. Even alcohol, which damages/numbs parts of the brain and lowers your inhibitions (read capacity to make moral judgements).
it could be the life giving ingredient. I always wondered if scientists/philosophers were able to specifically identify when exactly one becomes "alive". but yes that nebulous idea of life is certainly a more attractive/scientifically plausible meaning of the soul.
I also think the soul as consciousness/sentience makes sense.
Again I stress in English we use the word soul too freely. There are different aspects of 'soul' that are clearly differentiated in Arabic. In Surah 3 verse 185 we are alerted to the idea 'The life of this world is only an enjoyment of deception'.
And ...
"Know you all, that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, in rivalry among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight the hearts of the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe for the devotees of wrong, and Forgiveness from Allah and His Good Pleasure for the devotees of Allah. And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Quran 57: 20)"
The world of cause and effect is a deception. In reality all effects are caused by Allah (SWT) because He is the Sustainer. Similarly if we say that the brain contains features that relate to the spiritual aspect of our being, or that if blood flows when the soul enters the body. It does not mean that blood flow has mandated the soul to arrive nor that the souls arrival mandates the blood to flow or assume soul and blood flow are inherent to the same definition. It is like saying the knife cuts the bread, but in reality Allah (SWT) cuts, we merely cannot differentiate from that deceptive state. This issue becomes more important at the soul level, because trying to look for a soul in the body would be trying to look for a bark in a dog. We know that a bark can come out of dogs, logic tells us that it must therefore have come from inside it, what comes out must have first been within. However, opening a dog up will never find us those barks and the soul shares a similar definition. Our bodies are also part of us. This needs to be understood too.
Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS) out of sounding clay. This is a physical attribute of our existence that should not really be separated from our ruh in identifying us as creatures.