faceup, wakeup and again read the page 1 of your thread “Islam is based on 5-7 Pillars & Nothing else!”. Atleast ten (10) different people, excluding myself, gave you rebuttal on your thoughtless statements.
In the end, you had to admit that the 7 fundamentals which you were vociferously advocating were not available in a single ayat of quran. Rather they were available here and there, on different places, including ayat and some ahadith.
The five pillars of Islam are all proven from quran and ahadith.
Do you dispute if Salat, Sayam, Hajj and Zakat are four fard (mandatory) responsibilities of a muslim?
Re: Shahadat: The words of shahada “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (PBUH) is the messanger of Allah”, are universally accepted. If you have a different shahdat then tell us, otherwise whats your point in arguing stuff which is accepted by both sunnis and shi’ites?
If you dispute these words of shahadat, first you must prove the source of your shahadat (from quran), and then ask us to provide source for ours.
You have started this thread so first prove your point.
On a broader note, you have 5-7 fundamental beliefs, and someone else has 5 pillars. What does it matter, huh?
All of us should just try to follow Islam to the best of your ability, gain maximum knowledge and collect enough good deeds to make us successful on the day of judgement. There is no point in discussing mundane, unnecessary, argumentive topics which lead no where.
As a famous saying goes: For you is your religion, for me is my religion.
Why should we have pillars if we have the quran? now if the quran is not clear then we should have pillars but as far as everyone knows Quran is clear! Faceup bhai base Islam on Quran not something people disagree about! we already have tonnes of problems between us please don't create more!
I hope you are not making the same mistake which is consistently made by faceup. You can not ignore the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH), and you can not say that only Quran is sufficient, and we can ignore the teachings, ahadith and sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH). You will notice that even in Quran, it says that all muslims must adhere to things which the Prophet (PBUH) tells them.
Go check out the meaning of Sura Al-Baqarah
[quote]
*2:151. Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Qur'ân) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Qur'ân) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Islâmic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.
[/quote]
*
In this verse, the following terms are important and you should ponder over them:
"teaching you the book (the Quran)", means that verses from Quran need to be understood with how the Prophet (PBUH) explained them.
"and the Hikmah", this means Prophet's (PBUH) teachings.
"teaching you that which you used not to know", again re-emphasizing the importance of Prophet's (PBUH) teachings.
So, in short no one should ignore Sunnah, and delude ones self that Quran alone is sufficient. I will be very interested to know if any one who denies the importance of Sunnah, can explain some other meaning for this ayat.
Re: Pillars of Islam. These are referenced by a hadith of our Prophet (PBUH) quoted by Hazrat Umer Bin Al Khatab (the second righteous Caliph). If you or anyone does not accept them, as pillars, its up to you.
You can have your own 5-7 pillars, and none of us have any problems with that either.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
*I will be very interested to know if any one who denies the importance of Sunnah, can explain some other meaning for this ayat.
*
[/quote]
It is my understanding that since the hadiths were not written down in the Prophet's lifetime, and since they themselves were not the word of God, that the hadiths may contain human error. The liberal Muslim, then, can reject a hadith if he feels the Quran contradicts said hadith.
That is not at all true. ** Not only LIBERAL muslim, but ANY muslim will reject the authenticity of hadith if it contradicts anything in the Quran.**
This is not to say that the Prophet (PBUH) said something which contradicted Quran, rather it is that someone fabricated the hadith or that it was modified so that its original wordings and the meaning has been lost. The Quran states (interpretation of the meaning):
[quote] “Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired” [al-Najm 53:3
[/quote]
It is true that ahadith were collected 200 years after the Prophet (PBUH), and so, it is possible that many were lost. However, some of the criteria for certifying a hadith as true is
(a) it does not contradict anything in Quran,
(b) the narrator (sahabi or companion of the Prophet) must be a man/woman of integrity and no incorrect ahadith were referenced to him/her; and
(c) the hadith must be transferred from the narrator to the collector by muslims identified as God-fearing and of integrity.
Some compilers of ahadith did further tests, one of which was that any hadith which was witnessed by only one companion were not included and only those ahadith were collected which were stated in the presence of two or more companions, and atleast two of those narrated it to other muslims and from there it passed on by muslims and to the compiler.
Despite all these tests to filter out any incorrect ahadith, it is only Allah who knows what is true. As muslims, it is our responsibility to gain knowledge as much as possible, through authentic sources.
But to suggest that all ahadith might be weak, and hence Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) can be ignored, is the stance of ignorant people. The study of Islam can never be complete if you just study Quran and then think you know everything about Islam.
anyway, I thought sura 109 (The Unbelievers) was not meant as a statement of tolerance, but rather, it means - "You are unbeliever. I am not. No matter how hard you try, in your heart, you will always be an unbeliever. In my heart, I will always be a believer." It does not mean that that the kafir has an equal say into his own way of seeing religion.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited October 04, 2000).]
For all surahs there are Hadiths that further explains it - so, let's ask Prostine to quote some hadiths pertaining to Sura 109?
To Pristine:
You quote of Sura Al-Baqarah to suggest that following the "ways" or sunnah/hadith is "forever" mandated upon muslims" . I disagree and this can be explained from a business context.
Translation: Pickthall
[al-Baqarah 2:151] Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.
This aya[2:151] reads like a job description of a CEO - who is entrusted to establish the new business. He sets up his policies & objectives and appoints officers & grooms a successor!
Similarly, the Prophet of Islam was a CEO - entrusted by Allah to establish Islam. The Prophet established the religious beliefs, had close sahabas and "groomed" a successor.
The CEO & the Prophet were relevant to their time but time changes and policies must change with the time or the business will fail. Similarly, if Islam does not adapt to the changed environment - it will "fail" - many agree that it already has!
I can not quote any ahadith on this topic here, as this thread is started by faceup, and he doesn’t believe in ahadith. Also I can only offer ahadith to someone who believes in ahadith, not to some one who denies the importance of Sunnah altogether. Suffice is to say that I do not agree with your analogy of similarity between a Prophet and a CEO. There is a huge difference.
Quran:
Quran is a divine book, and therefore, we believe it is relevant till the Day of Judgement. But even there, you find lots of references to ideas, practices and theologies which were practised in 7th century and are probably not very relevant these days e.g slaves. Therefore, in short, Quran provides clear order (do’s and don’ts) on certain very few issues.
Islamic Sharia:
Then there is Islamic Sharia which is based on Quran and the teachings of the Prophet which provide general guidelines on how to live our lives. This includes Islamic jurisprudence, fiqha (laws) and inferences drawn by Islamic scholars over the period of time.
Islamic Value Set:
The last perimeter is the Islamic Value Set which provides guidelines relevant to each time. It is the Islamic Value set which is dynamic and caters to changing times. However, most muslims believe that while Islamic Value Set needs to be constantly updated, it can not go against the general guidelines derived from Islamic sharia and certainly can not go against the direct orders available in Quran.
This is probably the most summarized answer I could give on this topic which is very vast in scope.
Great CEO analogy there. Absolutely correct!Corporte policies can be compared to sharia laws; they cannot remain static and must change with times.
To Pristine,
If Malik is asking for hadiths re: surah 109 then he seems to be asking the right person. What does that have to do with my position on hadiths? I believe in hadiths as historical records; not as the meanings of the quran and, most certainly not for all eternity!
Also, Sophia can post hadiths re: Apostates and Shariah laws surrounding Apostasy & Apostates. Let's see how relevant these "pristine" laws (written by angry, old man) are?
Pristine, *****************
What R you saying here? Quran is not relevant here! Here's your quote from your post above posted October 04, 2000 02:17 PM:
"you find lots of references to ideas, practices and theologies[on the quran] which were practised in 7th century and are probably not very relevant these days"
I shall let readers decide for themselves!
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited October 04, 2000).]
If someone is interested in reading the interpretation of Sura 109, they can do so on the web. There are many sites. For example they can check at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran
Regarding my comment: “But even there [in Quran], you find lots of references to ideas, practices and theologies which were practised in 7th century and are probably not very relevant these days e.g slaves.” That is true. As you conveniently ignored the example I gave, let me explain it. The last I checked, slavery is not allowed in Pakistan. Therefore Quranic commands on slaves, although valid, can not be applied right now. Should tomorrow, slavery is again allowed, all those commands will become applicable once again. Hence, nothing in Quran is cancelled, however we take all commands which are valid to our conditions and situations.
Basic human behaviours and instincts do not change. The ability to lie, to cheat, to be attracted to opposite sex, to procreate, to have children, and to search for truth are just a few examples. They were relevant 1500 years ago and they are relevant now. We can not ignore Quranic commands by saying that these commands are out-dated because these were revealed 1500 years ago. I believe the same about authentic Sharia/Sunnah. You have a different view on this.
Assalam O Alaikum!
[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited October 04, 2000).]
