Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

The above mentioned post is implying that it is ordained in Islam to resort to violent means to achieve political objectives. The poster is encouraging forum readers to read chapters on jihad as stand alone chapters and start an armed struggle to achieve political goals. The poster is completely devoid of any knowledge of Islam on the subject and is encouraging people to read these verses without using their brains. This point of view is exactly the point of view of anti Islam forces who accuse Islam as a violent and destructive religion. These anti Islam forces accuse that the chapters on armed struggle or jihad were the final instructions to the followers of Islam and thus these chapters abrogated earlier verses which encouraged coexistence and harmony amongst different religions.

Yes the chapters on jihad were some of the last chapters…but you have to understand why..

  1. Prophetic career of Holy Prophet(PBUH) started in Mecca and this period extended to 13 years out of total 23 years of total prophetic career. Quran during this period ordained muslims to practice restraint inspite being subjected to extra ordinary violence.** When this violence became unbearable prophet (PBUH) resorted to migration to Mecca instead of replying this violence with return violence. Thus this was the first action of the prophet(PBUH) as a self defence.**

2)** The second phase of Holy Prophet (PBUH)'s prophetic career was early Madina years. Muslims signed treaties with jews and other citizens of Madina and tried their best to coexist **with them. During this period although Muslims became very powerful in Madina they never tried to start any armed comflict with other communities of Madina and encouraged peace and harmony with them..So this was the second action of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) for the welfare of all the citizens including non Muslms…

  1. The third phase of Prophetic career began when jews and other communities failed to abide these treaties with Muslims and started to conspire with Meccan pagans against Muslims. They threatened to destroy Muslims way of life. When all attempts of muslim to coexist with other communities failed due to conspiracies of other communities muslims were ordaine to safeguard their interest through an armed struggle…but this order of jihad came when certain conditions were fulfilled…and these conditions were..

a) All attempts to coexist failed including peace treaties…only then armed struggle was ordained..

b) When muslims were powerful enough that these armed struggles would not be suicidal only then this course was taken. Remember when all attempts to coexist failed in Mecca Muslims resorted to migration as armed struggle at that time would have been suicidal…

4 ) When muslims over powered the enemies they wer ordered to protect these enemies with their own armies. Religious freedom was granted to these communities and they were forgiven for their past deeds…and this was the final phase of our Holy Prophet’s prophetic career..

At the end of this post I would like to ask a few questions from my fellow posters..

  1. Have we tried every means of coexistence before resorting to violence as the Holy Prophet did. Remeber what kind of violence they faced in Mecca..

  2. Are the other communities conspiring against us or we are aggressive towards them by resorting to terrorist activities against them. Remember struggle against Jews, Christains, and other communiries was for the Jews, Christains, and idloators of that period and does not mean we are ordained to fight against these communities till eternity.

  3. Are we powerful enough to start an armed struggle against them. Is it not suicidal in today’s circumstances to start these armed struggles. Remeber when muslims were weak in Mecca they did not take this course and used their brains and decided to migrate to preserve their way of living…unlike brainless zombies of today whose striking capability is not better than stoneage primitive men but want to take on western super powers in a war. It’s them who are being compassionate and are trying to put some brain in these zombies and not nuking them to hell with just one strike for which they are capable of…

I want to conclude that Islam is a peaceful religion and believes in coexistence. and does not encourage violence as the above mentioned poster is trying to make you believe. **Armed struggle is ordained only when all other attempts to coexist fail, and when you are powerful enough to start this kind of venture. **Even if Muslim become successful in these armed struggles they are ordained to protect others and forgive them.

Pakistan was not founded as an Islamic State. It was founded as a Secular Democracy for Muslims of India.

The constitution of Pakistan was secular. The Sharia was incorporated by Zia and his cronies.

Totally agree..

Penal code of sharia is for those states who adopt religion as their state religion. In our constitution freedom to practice any religion is ensured and according to the constitution no law can be made against the teachings of Islam. For more wordly affairs religion is separated from the state.
In other words in Pakistan sins will be punished by Allah, while crimes will be punished by the state of Pakistan. We must be very clear in defining sins from crimes, and punishments will be according to the penal code of Pakistan and not some religiously prescribed punishments…

Do we need more religion?
Do we need more religion?

Legal eye

Saturday, April 25, 2009
Babar Sattar

The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad. He is a Rhodes scholar and has an LL.M from Harvard Law School

An assumption underlying the debate over our sprawling Talibanisation has been that enforcement of Sharia is a good thing, just not the Taliban brand of Sharia. But how can we know whether a majority of Pakistanis want Sharia to be “enforced” upon them when we have never had a candid debate on the role of religion in this country?

As a state and a society we have put in place a coercive environment where it is heretical to question any social, political or economic agenda articulated in the name of Islam. Our self-enforced inhibition to debate the role of religion in defining the relationship between the citizen and the state in Pakistan is not only breeding and reinforcing religious intolerance in the country but has created an environment where any political agenda camouflaged as a programme for enforcement of Sharia automatically acquires prima facie legitimacy without any scrutiny of the merits of such agenda or its Islamic credentials.

Sufi Mohammed and other semi-literates who support armed jihad, wear a beard and possess a bully pulpit, have arrogated to themselves the divine right to speak in the name of God. These self-styled guardians of Islam have no qualms about openly declaring that anyone opposed to their political agenda is a “fasid,” “mushrik” or “kafir” who automatically stands ousted from the realm of Islam and is liable to be killed. Even when Sufi Mohammed declared that the MQM was a heretical party and our Parliament and judicature constituted an un-Islamic system, our prime minister and other parliamentarians refused to respond to such “personal opinion” of the new emir of Swat.

The elites in Pakistan and mainstream political parties have shown a tendency not to engage in religious discourse. No one wishes to get on the wrong side of the maulvi, who might be an underdog in terms of our societal power dynamics but has accumulated considerable nuisance value over the decades.** There has been no focus in Pakistan on the education and training of the maulvi, who is generally drawn from the more deprived sections of the society and drifts towards madrasa or mosque in seeking a full-time vocation in the absence of any alternative prospect of upward professional or social mobility. And yet he has access to the podium in the mosque and the ability to influence the thinking of those who pray behind him, as his legitimacy is a consequence of his position in the mosque, and not derived from his credentials as a scholar of Sharia or Fiqh. **

There is religious discourse in the country. But the Parliament or the more educated and progressive sections of the society are neither defining the contours of this discourse nor engaging with it. The consequence is the proliferation of a brand of faith that is seen as being retrogressive and cruel, and that huge sections of the society do not own up or relate to. The village maulvi has been offering half-baked solutions to the complex problems afflicting Pakistan for decades. The Taliban are now doing the same, except that they have also acquired control and monopoly over means of coercion in many parts of Pakistan and thus have the ability to implement their obscurantist agenda.** Instead of proposing solutions inspired by Islamic values to the myriad problems of a complex society the Taliban are determined to slap the rest of their compatriots to an ancient time and create a medieval society that simply doesn’t have complex problems.**

**The crude concept of penal justice and social justice that the Taliban are marketing could be appealing to some deprived, disempowered and disgruntled sections of the society that have lost faith in the ability and will of the state to protect and promote their interests. But the problems that we confront today are the products of a moth-eaten dysfunctional system of governance and not the lack of piety or religion in the country. Forcing people to pray publicly, bullying men into wearing a beard and tying the “shalwar” higher than is customary, and shrouding or shunning women to their homes and excluding them from public life will not make our problems go away. Even assuming for a minute that the freedom and liberty that many value within the society is overrated, what is it that enforcement of some new Sharia system will enable us to do and how is our present constitutional system holding us back? **

Over 96 percent of the citizens of Pakistan are Muslims. Some abide by a maximal view of religion and wish to be informed by the texts of the Quran and the Sunnah in performing each and every act in their daily lives. Some follow a minimalist view and while following the mandatory injunctions of Islam they believe to have been endowed with choices and discretion to order their lives. Some acknowledge the mandatory nature of various injunctions of Islam, but lack the discipline or the will to comply with such injunctions. Many are confused about the role religion should play in their public lives and still others are convinced that religion is a private matter between the person and his Creator and has no role in dictating public choices that a community makes as a collectivity. How, then, do we conclude so readily that a majority of the citizens of Pakistan wish Sharia to be “enforced” in the country?

The question of Sharia enforcement must be distinguished from the debate on whether or not Pakistan should be a secular state–i.e., one where the state is legally separated from religion and maintaining a neutral position neither promotes nor prohibits religion. The question being posed here is whether we should be a Muslim nation-state or endeavour to become an Islamic state. We are presently a Muslim nation-state simply by virtue of the fact that our overwhelming majority is Muslim. Islamic rituals and Sharia is already a part of Muslim households, with birth, death, marriage, divorce and inheritance being dealt with in Islamic tradition together with varied compliance with other rituals of Islam.** We have a Constitution that states that Islam is the religion of the state and that Muslims shall be “enabled” to order their lives in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam.**

We have constitutionally created the Council of Islamic Ideology comprising celebrated religious scholars of the country to advise the executive and the legislature on whether any laws are repugnant to Islam. We have a Federal Shariat Court that adjudicates issues that deal with or require enforcement of Islamic law and we have a Shariat Bench as part of our Supreme Court to sit in appeal over decisions of the Federal Shariat Court. Thus, we would have been a Muslim nation-state if we didn’t have institutionalised arrangements to formally incorporate Islamic edicts within our law and jurisprudence.** But as an Islamic state we have acquiesced in a minimalist view of religion, whereby any law or ruling repugnant to Islam is to be struck down; but in areas where there is no binding Islamic edict, representatives of the people have the discretion to determine what the law should be. What, then, is enforcement of Sharia meant to achieve? Given that all Muslims agree that there is an obligation to offer prayers five times a day, should we promulgate a law requiring the state to flog whoever fails to say such prayers? **

Is it desirable to remove the sensible distinction between a crime and a sin and require the state to step into the shoes of God and sit in judgment over the piety of citizens and punish those found wanting? And, given that Islam as a religion hasn’t bestowed the authority on any individual or institution to speak authoritatively in the name of God or render one authentic interpretation of the edicts enshrined in the Quran and Sunnah, who will determine which conception of Sharia is the legitimate one? Can the state, then, authorise or tolerate one group of people coercing others into complying with their conception of Sharia or itself get into the business of defining a legally binding concept of Sharia? Should the state expand its existing constitutional mandate of ‘enabling’ citizens to order their lives in accordance with Islamic teachings to get into the business of “enforcing” a certain conception of individual Islamic obligations of Muslims?

The liberals in Pakistan continue to reiterate Jinnah’s vision for a secular Pakistan and his speech of Aug 11, 1947, emphasising that the state would have nothing to do with religion. But even if we concede for a moment that “Pakistan ka matlab kya, la illa ha illallah” summarises the true purpose of Pakistan’s creation, the slogan means different things to different people. There is urgent need for us to have an open public debate in the country to evolve a consensus over the role that the state can, and should, legitimately plan in relation to Islam. So long as we continue to abdicate the responsibility of defining for ourselves the manner in which we wish the state and religion to interact in Pakistan out of timidity, laziness or indifference, obscurantists, bigots and vigilantes who neither have the ability nor the inclination to develop the concept of a modern Muslim nation-state will continue to hijack religion to pursue invidious political and personal agendas.

Email: [email protected]

re: Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

[note] This thread has been split from "Shariah should be imposed in Pakistan" on Yazdi's request. Please avoid religious debates on this & discuss only political aspects of it. [/note]

Re: Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

Coexist??!! How can you talk about co-existing when they occupy your third most holy and sacred site?

Are you trying to fool someone over here?

Totally agreed

Thanks for making that distinction so clear

The writer said it. There in lies the problem. A true scholar is one who can combine religious with modern education and interpret Islam for modern times

What, the first 2 holiest sites not good enough for you?

Re: Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

Islam is encompassing way of life, promoting an economic system as well as spiritual one. can we implement the economic system without have the legal power(i.e the political means) at our hands? if so explain to me why pakistan was created? india is a secular democracy, why wasnt it good enough for us? Zakat is one of the five pillars of islam, ribah is something that is direly illegal in islam so how do we incorporate that with being a secular muslim? Most importantly what do the people of pakistan want a secular state or islamic republic of pakistan? How many protests, refrendums have been demanded to change the current islamic republic, it s a certain class that is pushing this agenda and they have no right to impose their misguided perception on the rest of us. People who have these issues with islamic state are the people who are real culprit in my eyes. Not the mullahs, these secular minded folks are willing to impose their ideas without having to justify them for it allows them certain freedoms and further corruption. Can a muslim be an advocate of secular state? Please explain and provide examples where Allah or any of his messengers calls for and established a secular state. This is folly to say the least.

explain to me why would you separate a secular state from a secular state? on basis of what?

Jinnah never once used the term Secular, did bend over backwards to emphisize that it would not be a theocracy (whatever he meant by the term), however did refer to Pakistan as a "modern" Islamic state (again, whatever he meant by the term). He dropped the "I" bomb many a times in his speeches, and I take his invocation of Islam as quite sincere...unfortunately I don't think he ever coherently formulated what this modern Isalmic state was...

As for being a secular state, Jinnah knew of Attaturk, and his secularization...and quite clearly rejected that extreme form of secularism. HIs own invocation of Islam clearly points to his rejection of any staunch secularism...

Pakistan was founded on a strange ideological principle, TNT, which did not spell out the characteristic of this Muslim state. I dare say, the distinction between Muslim state and Islamic state among those who mattered most, i.e. those who gave Jinnah mindshare in this thing he called Pakistan, was lost.

Between Iqbal and Jinnah, there is some concept of a state that is neither secular nor traditionally Islamic (i.e. nothing by way of an Ottoman-inspired caliphate, Islamic legal system and governance system, etc.).

The constitution, to my understanding, was not written during Jinnah's life...however Islamic provisions were introduced in the original 1956 constitution, essentially establishing Shariah as a prime source of law if not in practice, at least in intent. It was a this time Pakistan became, officially, a republic...indeed, an Islamic republic.

In the end, I think this is the bottom line. If religious Muslims will be marginlized in a secular Pakistan, then why on earth not bother remaining an Indian?

Again, the answer lies somewhat in the origins of Pakistan...the so-called Two Nation Theory, which posited that the Muslim Nation on the Indian subcontinent, their way of life and religion, was existentially challenged by a Hindu majority.

Modern proponents of a secular Pakistan like to engage in some revisionist history, suggesting that the TNT at it's heart was a matter of preserving an ethnic community, based on religion (e.g. Jews), and not necessarily the religion itself.

This is easily debunked, a the chief ideologues of TNT invoked a danger to Islam itself in a unified India, not some abstract and unrealized Muslim "ethnicity". Further, the Muslims of India hardly formed a coherent group, covering a myriad of cultures and languages...the only real commonality was in religious practice and social customs.

Because in Pakistan's secular state...the muslims would be majority and they would be in positions of power

where as living in hindu india...they would be relegated into a permanent minority

all the founders of Pakistan were seculars including Jinnah

they wanted a secular nation on the likes of Turkey

really you speak alot on the behalf of founders of pakistan but nothing about the fact that majority in pakistan doesNOT want to be a secular state. where goes your democratic principle?
as for you phusphusa reason behind two nation theory, what happens to your belief of minorities in pakistan being entitled to same rights as muslim? on one hand you say we created this secular state to have a upper hand in political terms and in the same breath you push in your proposed secular state equal rights for muslims and non muslims alike in pakistan, wouldnt that defeat the purpose of the creation of "secular" pakistan then? either way you are a traitor to the cause( even your own defined cause). although i find your reasoning exceptionally thick to begin with.

Let's not try to put your own words in other people mouths. First of all, apart from a small minority, majority of the population does not believe Pakistan is a secular state. Over and over again, Pakistanis have given votes and power to national political parties like PPP, PML, ANP, MQM etc and only a very limited number of people have voted for the parties who have tried to gain power by using the name of religion (Maulana Diesel, Qazi whose kids study in American universities, etc.). Generally, majority of Pakistanis are contended with the freedom constitution allows them to practice their religion and do not want and need anything more on the religious front. What Pakistanis need is a stable democratic system where people have opportunities to get education, quicker justice and means to improve their life. This need cannot be fulfilled by the criminals who want to bring in their own barbaric interpretation of a religion to a place that already practices religion in a way, almost no other Islamic country can better. Definitely, we have problems and I believe we are slowly on the way to tackle these problems. We can not give power to these criminals who will build their own 1-1/2 in. Mosque and then use the loud speaker to label person in the other mosque as kafir.

Down with Talib Extremism!

Re: Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

^its usally words and not the tongue. All very well that you say, i never said pakistanis wanted a shariah state, in fact if you dig up my comments you'll see that i donot think that most pakistanis do. However at the same time they donot want a secular state, we have an identity and we like to keep it. The entire concept of pakistan gets down to keep and preservign that identity of being a muslim otherwise we have nothing to justify the very beign of pakistan.Down with secular gibberish!
And truly these 'criminals' only started up recently before that since the birth of pakistan how stable a democracy have we created? How much have our politicians have achieved. Those criminals are focued on fillign their pockets and be damned to the country. I donot agree with the brutal regime but i donot think over simplyfing things is a reasonable approach.

I do not need to fool anyone here...some people are made that way by Allah..

So what suggestion do you have to get the third most holy place released...everyone becomes a suicide bomber and start killing people who do not wear their shalwar at a certain height..that's the maximum you can do!!!!

Start educating your next generations...win atleast 100 nobel prizes...it may take 500 years...I can assure you if we are an economic highly educated group of people enemy will themself vacate our third most sacred place...

Meanwhile until that happens, become peaceful and finish terrorism. They will allow muslims to come for pligrimage there, even encourage religious tourism if they are sure that there will be no terrorist activity carried out by these religious tourist...after all I think they are clever enough not to lose any business opportunity...

Again I want to repeat the same comment as I did in my last post. Majority of Pakistanis do not believe that Pakistan is a secular state as it stands now. My post does not condone a secular state as well. So please stop interpreting my words in your own way.

Re: Does Islam encourages armed struggle to achieve political objectives? [Split]

^ bhai try to follow the thread i am talkin to people who want pakistan to be a secular state rather than what it is now. where did i say pakistan right now is a secular state? now i would suggest you try to read what thread is talking about instead of charging on about soemthign else.