AMY ...... DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD? IF YES, THEN PROVE IT .....
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
No personnal remarks, No sarcastic comments, just discuss the topic.
Punjabi Kurhi
[quote]
Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
**AMY ...... DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD? IF YES, THEN PROVE IT .....
**
[/quote]
Did you read my email to sholay? Stay wit the topic and I'll disuss it. I don't have to prove anything to any one, God will judge me.
Punjabi Kurhi
Amy...
i can understand your complex with the Hadiths... i have thought on similar lines sometimes.
if you read the full Sahih al Bukhary (with commentary and narration of who narrated the hadith upto Bukhary -or malik, tirmidhy etc) you will understand that there are many ahadith there which although have been listed (to make sure that they are not forgotten and are found to be correct) may have some doubt.. a number ahadith have been found to be doubtful to authenticity and declared as such.
as for your aversion to ahadith.. here is my understanding of it..
Islam is the complete religion - way of life etc.. and was revealed over a long period to ensure people got to see the implementation of the revelation in real life .. as well as to show the people it can be implemented.
The prohpet Muhammad (saw) was the best of the human beings and followed the rule of Islam the best.
now if I want to live my life as best as I can according to Islam.. I should be following what the Prophet (saw) did because that is the best way (amy, you want to prove me wrong on this aspect?)
so.. now I have a book telling me what to do.. and narrations of prophet (saw) relating how and when to apply them..
as the narrations (ahadith) were written down around 200 years after - though after lengthy authenticity checks - not all the ahadith were remembered.. people mainly remembered what they encountered in daily life.... so therefore would explain why some surats are not covered by the sahihs.
just because the ahadith do not cover the whole quran does not mean they are incorrect.. they are the best record we have of how the prophet lived his life.
now if you want to go try to come up with your own way to get to god.. go for it..
but you will not be following Islam.. as how to live life according to Islam was shown by the Prophet (saw)... and the information transferred to us by these ahadith you so easily berate...
oh by the way..
regarding praying while travelling.. try your best to locate Qibla.. but it is not restrictive as that.. the whole world is allahs... and you can pray towards any direction (which you believe is qiblah)... as allah is all knowing and knows your intentions.
"God will judge me."
amy.....I would love to see that time when Allah will judge you.....not too far
What a time would it be
Saitan and amy
shoulder to shoulder, will be taught a LESSON BY THE ANGLES OF HELL about the importance of Hadit
[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
** Did you read my email to sholay? Stay wit the topic and I'll disuss it. I don't have to prove anything to any one, God will judge me.
**
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Babar123
You actually state:
In my next post I shall give you a list of all the Muslim Scholars who although are not Ahmedies but they believe that prophets can appear after Holy Prophet.
However, the Qur'aan states:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the Prophets. And Allah is ever knower of everything. 33:40-44
So which do you believe, the QUR'AAN or the scolars.
Please don't dig a deeper hole than you have already dug for yourself.**
[/quote]
Mr. Sholay:
I believe the true meanings of Quran. And the true meanings of Quran are supported by a number of true Muslim Scholars.
In my last post I promissed to give you the list of ALL the true Muslim Scholars who believe that Prophets may come even after the Holy Prophet without affacting the Quranic Aayat presented by you in your latest post.
Mr. Sholay:
I am sorry that I cannot present here the list of "ALL" such Muslim Scholars BECAUSE THE LIST IS NOT SMALL. Therefore I am presenting only some references here.
1-Mujadad Alaf Saani Hazrat Sheikh Ahmed Farooqi Serhindi (died on: 1624 AD)
"After Khatam-ur-Rusal (PBUH), if his followers gain the signs of prophethood as an inheritence, then it shall not affact the status of Khatm-e-Rusal of Holy Prophet(PBUH). SO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE DOUBT IN IT."
(Maktoob No. 301, Page 432 Volume 1)
......................................
2-Hazrat Muhai-ul-Din Ibn-e-Arabi (6th century Hijri)
"We have got certain knowledge through Darood Shareef that there are some persons in Ummah whose status (In God's View) is the same as prophets. BUT THEY HAVE NOT BROUGHT (NEW) SHARIAH."
(Fatuhat-e-Makiah volume 1 Page 545)
.........................................
3- Hazrat Imam Jaafer (died on: 765 AD)
"Allah made prophets, mesangers and Imams in the Ummah of Hazrat Ibraheem BUT IT IS A STRANGE THING THAT PEOPLE ACCEPT THE EXISTANCE OF THE GIFT OF PROPHETHOOD AND IMAMAT IN THE UMMAH OF HAZRAT IBRAHEEM AND DO NOT ACCEPT THE EXISTANCE OF SAME GIFTS IN THE UMMH OF HOLY PROPHET(PBUH)."
( Alsaafi Sharah Usool-e-Kaafi part 3 Page 119)
.....................................
4- Hazrat Imam Abdul Wahab Shaarani (died on:
1762 AD)
"You must understand that ABSOLUTE PROPHETHOOD IS NOT FINISHED. IT IS THE PROPHETHOOD WITH SHARIAH WHICH IS FINISHED."
(Alewaqiat wa-al-Jawahar volume 3 page 35)
.............................................
5- Hazrat Shah Wali-Ullah Muhaddas Dehlvi (died on: 1762 AD)
"The meaning that Holy Prophet (PBUH) is Khatam-n-Nabiyeen is that Now Allah shall never send any person with (new) Shariah. It means that there shall be no prophet with new Shariah."
(Sorry I just missed to collect its reference I shall tell you In my next post)
...........................................
6- Hazrat Alsheikh Bali Affandi (died on: 920 Hijri)
"Khatam-ur-Rusal is the one after whom NO PROPHET WITH NEW SHARIAH WILL BORN.
(Sharah fasoos-ul-Hukam)
..........................................
7- Hazrat Ab-Abdullah muhammad Bin Ali Hussain Altirmizi (308 Hijri)
"And what it is supposed that meaning of Khatam-n-Nabiyeen is that HE (PBUH) is the last of prophets who came. IS THERE ANY SUPERIORITY OR DIGNITY OF HOLY PROPHET (PBUH) IN SUCH MEANING??? AND WHAT IS THE LITERARY IMPORTANCE OF SUCH MEANING???
THIS IS INFACT THE MEANING TAKEN BY FOOLS AND IGNORANTS."
(Kitab Khatam-al-Awoliah page 341)
........................................
So Mr. Shlay:
I am waiting for your FATWAAS against these Islamic Scholars.
After having received your Fatwaas I shall give you some more references so that you may charge Fatwas on them also.
Then I shall again give you some references out of this long list and so on.........
Please don't dig a deeper hole than you have already dug for yourself.
Babar123
Thank you for answering the qusetion.
You have confirmed that you DO NOT accept the Qur'aanic verse confirming the finality of Prophets with Mohammed PBUH.
What you actually believe is that Mohammed PBUH was NOT the final Seal of Prophets.
In your eyes, scholars carry a greater superiority than Allah SWTA Himself, who actually revealed the ayat regarding the Sealhood of Prophets. Instead of accepting the verse, you decide to ranter and rave on about these scholars and their views.
I must admit that you are a very rare species indeed. The only Muslim who doesn't accept that Mohammed PBUH was the Seal of all Prophets.
It's right in front of you in plain English and Arabic, but you still deny the verse.
Good luck to you!
And here's something for you:
'I will make them taste a lesser punishment before the greater punishment that perhaps they may return (to the right path)'. 32:21
'Let those who contradict his command beware of a trial or a severe punishment'. 24:63
'...If you really love Allah, follow me and Allah will love you and forgive your sins...'
3:31
'He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)'. 4:80
Babar123, please pay heed to the last quote I gave you.
I will stick with the Final Seal of Prophets PBUH and you can stick to the scholars and the 'so called' New Prophets.
So let's not beat about the bush, YOUR ANSWER WAS VERY CLEAR!
Dear Sholay:
You have the habbit of answering without reading others messages.
I clearly told you that I BELIEVE THE TRUE MEANING OF QURAN.
Quran clearly states that Holy Prophet (PBUH) is Khatam-n-Nabiyeen. I BELIEVE IN IT.
You shall never accept because Your Heart, Your Eyes and Your Ears ARE SEALED BY THE GOD.
DO NOT TALK ABOUT ME. JUST TELL ME ABOUT THE ISLAM OF THOSE ISLAMIC SCHOLARS WHOSE REFERENCES I HAVE GIVEN IN MY LAST POST.
IF THEY ARE MUSLIM SCHOLARS THEN THEY HAVE GIVEN SUCH STATEMENTS KEEPING IN VIEW THE AAYET KHATAM-N-NABIYEEN.
I SHALL NEVER ALLOW YOU TO CHANGE THE TRACK.
FIRST YOU WILL HAVE TO TELL ME ABOUT THE ISLAM OF THESE ISLAMIC SCHOLARS.
Wait for my next post I have to go now for some time.
Babar123, if you really beleive in Quranic ayat and its meaning shown by Sholay then why do you want to discuss opinions of others as well as religion of others?
If you agree that according to Quranic ayat, Prophet PBUH was the last one, then period.... why do you have to go in different meanings or interpretations by others. if others can go astry would you follow them?
It is in your knowledge too, that if a hadith is against Quran you should ignore it. If you can ignore a hadith against Quran then why to even look at the "scholars" opinion which in this case looks contradictory to Quran? its simply like you do something then later you want to justify and seek ways to justify.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Mr. Sholay,
What is the meaning of this:
"I must admit that you are a very rare species indeed. The only Muslim who doesn't accept that Mohammed PBUH was the Seal of all Prophets."
Have you accepted that "I am a Muslim???"
Secondly I want to clear the confusion created by You in your own mind.
You said that:
"In your eyes, scholars carry a greater superiority than Allah SWTA Himself, who actually revealed the ayat regarding the Sealhood of Prophets. Instead of accepting the verse, you decide to ranter and rave on about these scholars and their views."
You are TOTALLY A CONFUSED PERSON.
I have never compare Quraanic verse with views of Scholars in any way.
What I have done is that <>
THE FATWA YOU PRESENTED CONTAINED THE FOLLOWING WORDS.
<<<<"all Muslim scholars have given an unanimous ruling that whoever makes the claim that after him(SAW) there can appear a new prophet is a Kafir.">>>>
I HAVE PROVED THAT <<
I HAVE PRESENTED THE VIEWS OF SOME OF THE MUSLIM SCHOLARS WHO ARE AGAINST THIS RULING.
SO YOUR FATWA IS PROVED TO BE BASED ON WRONG STATEMENT AND THEREFORE SHALL NOT BE ACCEPTED.
Thirdly I want to add that I CANNOT ACCEPT THE WRONG MEANINGS OF QURANIC VERSES IN HOW MUCH PLAIN ENGLISH IT MAY BE WRITTEN.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**Babar123, if you really beleive in Quranic ayat and its meaning shown by Sholay then why do you want to discuss opinions of others as well as religion of others?
If you agree that according to Quranic ayat, Prophet PBUH was the last one, then period.... why do you have to go in different meanings or interpretations by others. if others can go astry would you follow them?
It is in your knowledge too, that if a hadith is against Quran you should ignore it. If you can ignore a hadith against Quran then why to even look at the "scholars" opinion which in this case looks contradictory to Quran? its simply like you do something then later you want to justify and seek ways to justify.
**
[/quote]
Sir,
I believe in Quranic Verse BUT IN TRUE MEANINGS. Meanings of this verse if taken that there shall come no Prophet after Holy Prophet(PBUH) is not correct.
This verse tells us that Holy Prophet(PBUH) is "KHATAM-N-NABIYEEN".
The meaning of the word "KHATAM" is NOT "LAST OF" in any way.
This can be proved with a very simple example:
Consider the following Sentence:
"Bahadur Shah Zafar was the last of Mughal Empires."
Now take this sentence and go to any Arabi person or Alim and get this sentence translated in Arabi.
That Arabi Person or Alim SHALL NEVER DO THE FOLLOWING TRANSLATION.
"Khatam-al-Salaateen Min salateen-e-Mughlia".
WHY HE SHALL NOT DO THIS TRANSLATION??? Because the meaning of the Arabi word "KHATAM" is NOT 'LAST OF'.
The word "Khatam" however HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANINGS SUCH AS 'End of'(i.e "INTEHAA" or perfaction etc), 'SEAL' etc.
Thus the true meaning of "KHATAM-N-NABIYEEN" is that Holy Prophet(PBUH) is the most perfact prophet. HIS STATUS IS AT THE "END LEVEL OF PROPHETHOOD". WHAT PROPHETHOOD CAN GIVE TO ANY PROPHET CANNOT BE MORE THAN WHAT WAS RECEIVED BY THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUH).
You must understand this meaning by an Urdu Example:
You often say something like it in your routien conversation in Urdu.
"Flaan Ustad per Kaarigary Khatam Hai"
The meaning of such sentences you take is "That Ustad has reached at the end level in his Art."
This Meaning is verifiable through Hadith also:
This is a famous Hadith:
Holy Prophet (PBUH) once said to Hazrat Ali:
"Aana 'Khatam-n-Nabiyeen' Wa Anta Ya Ali 'Khatam-al-Awolliah'."
Its translation in English is:
"Ali..I am 'Khatam-n-Nabiyeen' and you are 'Khatam-al-Awolliah'."
Now according to this Hadith, if you take your favourite meanings for "Khatam-al-Awolliah" then you will have to say that there will be no Wali after Hazrat Ali.
THE REASON OF MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE TRUE MEANING OF THE WORD "KHATAM" IS <<
FOLLOWING TERMINOLOGY IS QUITE COMMON IN URDU AND ARABI LITERATURE.
Khatam-ul-Shoara (for greatest poet)
Khatam-ul-ITTEBAA (for greatest Hakeem)
Khatam-ul-Shuhadaa (for greatest Shaheed)
etc,etc.
There is another meaning of the word "Khatam" i.e, 'Seal'.
UNFORTUNATELY THIS MEANING IS ALSO BEING USED IN NEGATIVE SENSE. IT IS HELD THAT SEAL IS USED TO CLOSE DOWN A THING SO THE CHAPTTER OF PROPHETHOOD IS CLOSED.
THIS MEANING MUST BE USED IN POSITIVE SENSE.
THE MAIN FUNCTION OF SEAL IS NOT TO CLOSE SOMETHING.<<
So the meaning of "Khatam-n-Nabiyeen would be 'The seal of Prophet'.
Its explaination is that TRUENESS OF ALL PROPHETS IS VERIFIED OR CONFIRMED BY HOLY PROPHET(PBUH)BECAUSE HOLY PROPHET(PBUH) IS THE 'SEAL OF PROPHETS'
Its further explaination is that WE SHALL NEVER BE ABLE TO CONFIRM THE TRUTHNESS OF ALL OTHER PROPHETS. IT IS ONLY DUE TO HOLY PROPHET(PBUH) WHO, BEING THE 'SEAL OF PROPHETS', HAS CONFIRMED AND VERIFIED THEIR TRUTHNESS.
This 'SEAL OF PROPHET' Principle holds that every Person who claims to be a Prophet in any way, he shall be tested on the basis of 'Seal of prophets' i.e, His claim shall be tested on the teachings of Holy Prophet(PBUH). If Varification 'seal' is found(i.e, proof of his truth avilable in Holy prophet(PBUH)'s teachings) then that person would be right in his claim.
We know about the truthness of Old prophets only because Holy Prophet (PBUH) has verified them.
THE TRUTHNESS OF HOLY PROPHET(PBUH) CANNOT BE TESTED BY ANY OTHER PROPHET. HIS (PBUH) TRUTHNESS IS IN HIMSELF(PBUH).
Hey people dont waste ur time on this thread for the mere amusement of AMY, she doesnt have a clue how to justify her claim. Who gives a crap about someone who doesnt want to believe inspite of all the evidence.
She just wants to get famous based on a controversial statement, which she cant live up to. AMY there are better ways of doing this, than hang ur beliefs and tell people to shoot holes through them.
People just ignore her, we dont need bull**** explanations from her about hadith. Have some respect for urselves than get ur beliefs insulted by her full of **** opinions, which cant even measure up to her mouth.
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
Babar123,
Just cut the crap.
It just gets from bad to worse with you trying to explain Seal.
What do you say about the following views from eminant scholars:
The Interpretation of well-known Muslim Scholars on
The Finality of Prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat)
(In Chronological Order)
Allama Ibn-e- Jarir Tabri (224-310 A.H.) interprets Khatam-an-Nabiyeen to mean that Muhammad(SAW) is the last prophet, the one who has closed up Prophethood or sealed it. This seal will not be opened for anyone till the Day of Judgment.
(Tafsir Ibn-e-Jarir, P. 12, Vol. 22, Egypt)
Mohiyyus Sunnah Baghawi (D. 510 A.H.) has written that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen indicte that Allah(SWT) has closed the line of Prophethood after Prophet Muhammad(SAW).... Ibn-e-Abbas says that Allah(SWT) has declared that there is no Prophet after him(SAW).
(Tafsir Malimut-tanzil, P. 158, Vol. 3, Egypt)
Allama Zamakhshari (467-538 A.H.) has written: "If you say how can he(SAW) be the Last Prophet when Jesus(pbuh) will come in the future ages, I will reply that he(SAW) is the Last Prophet in the sense that after him no New Prophet will come; Jesus(pbuh) is one of those Prophets who have already come before him. When Jesus(pbuh) will come again, he will follow the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and will face Qibla in his salat; this means that he will come as an individual of this Ummah.
Imam Razi (543-606 A.H.) is of the opinion that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen are used to show that the Sharia of Islam is complete. The view that no prophet will come after Muahmmad(SAW) is also more affectionate to and particular about his(SAW) Ummah and gives the significance of the words in more details. This is like the example of a son who has no guardian after his father.
(Tafsir-e-Kabir, P. 581, Vol. 6, Egypt)
Allama Baizavi (D. 685 A.H.) says that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the last of all Prophets. He has sealed the Prophethood of all Prophets, or their Prophethood has been sealed by him. It makes no difference that Jesus(pbuh) will come again after him, because he will come as a follower of his(SAW) Sharia.
(Tafsir-e-Bizavi, P. 196, Vol. 2, Egypt)
Allama Nasafi (D. 710 A.H.) recorded that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is at the end of all Prophets(pbut); and after him there will be no New Prophet; and Jesus(pbuh) was made a Prophet before him(SAW); and when he comes again, he will come as a follower of the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) as if he (Jesus) were an individual of this Ummah.
(Tafsir-e-Madarik-ut-Tanzil, P. 234, Vol. 3, Egypt)
Allama Allauddin Khazin (D. 725 A.H.) has expressed the view that Allah(SWT) has ended the line of Prophethood through him(SAW). Therefore, neither there is Prophethood after him, nor any other Prophet during his own time. Indeed, Ibn-e-Abbas has said that God has declared there will be no Prophet after him(SAW).
(Tafsir-e-Khazin, P. 218, Vol. 5, Egypt)
Allama Ibn-e-Kaseer (D. 774 A.H.) has written that Khatam-an-Nabiyeen contains the final proof of the fact that there will be no Prophet after him(SAW); neither will there be a Prophet with Sharia, since the office of prophethood with Sharia is higher than that of mere Prophethood.
(Tafsir-Ibn-e-Kaseer, P. 493, Vol. 3, Egypt)
Allama Mohammad Bin Yakoob Ferozabadi has interpreted these words to mean that Allah(SWT) has ended the line of Prophethood through him(SAW). Therefore, after him, there will be no New Prophet.
(Tafsir Ibn-e-Abbas, P. 262, Egypt)
Allama Moinuddin Bin Safiuddin (D. 889 A.H.) has written that the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the last of all Prophets and Jesus(pbuh) will come again as a follower of his Sharia.
(Jaame-ul-Bayan, P. 359, Dehli)
Allama Suyuti (D. 911 A.H.) says that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen mean there will be no New Prophet after him(SAW) and when Jesus(pbuh) will come again, he will act according to the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
(Jalalaim Ala Hamish Jamal, P. 442, Vol. 3)
Shah Mohammad Anwer Kashmiri has seen the meaning of Khatam-an-Nabiyeen to be that there will be no Prophet after him(SAW) and Jesus(pbuh) has already been made a Prophet before him(SAW).
(Mushkilatul Quran, P. 227, Dehli)
Sheikh Ismail Haqqi (D. 1137 A.H.) has read the phrase Khatam-an-Nabiyeen with the upsound of "T" which means the instrument by which something is closed (sealed). The meaning is that he(SAW) was the last of all Prophets by whom the office of all Prophets has been sealed. In Persian, "Seal of Prophets" means that by him the doors of Prophethood have been sealed, and the line of Prophethood terminated once and for all. Some other scholars have read this with a down sound of "T" which indicates he was "Khatim" in the sense of "Fa'ail". In Persian, it will mean the one who seals (ends) the prophets, in which case, the meaning is the same.
(Tafsir Ruhul Bayan, P. 188, Vol. 22, Egypt)
Allama Suleman Bin Umar Bin Jama (D. 1204 A.H.) has stated that "It is in the knowledge of Allah, who has complete knowledge of all things, that there will be no Prophet after Prophet Muhammad(SAW)."
(Al-Futuhaatul Ilahiya, P. 442, Vol. 3, Egypt)
Allama Muhammad Sharbeeni Khatib says that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the end of all Prophets. He(SAW) has ended the line of Prophethood, because his message is for the entire world and the Holy Quran is his miracle. After him, then, there is no need for a new prophet.... The meaning of Khatam-an-Nabiyeen is that after Hazrat Muhammad(SAW), there will be no Prophet with New Sharia, and there will be no Prophethood after him. The declaration that he is not the father of any man also proves that there will be no Prophets after him.
(Tafsir Sirajul Munir, P. 252, Vol. 3, Lucknow)
Allama Shaukani (D. 1255 A.H.) has written that the majority of scholars have read the word Khatam-an-Nabiyeen with the down sound of "T" and Asaim has read it with the up sound. The first means that he(SAW) has sealed the Prophets meaning that he has come at the very end of them. The other means that he is the seal of Prophets by which they have been completed and by the joining of him the group of Prophets has been decorated.
(Tafsir-e-Fathul Qadeer, P. 275, Vol. 4, Egypt)
Allama Aaloosi (D. 1270 A.H.) writes that Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) is also Khatimul Mursaleen meaning that after his Prophethood there will be no Prophethood at all.
(Tafsir Roohul Ma'ani, P. 23, Vol. 22)
I suppose that they are wrong by using the Qur'aan and authentic A'Hadeeth, where applicable, and you are right by using Mirzas Bull....
When the verse says “LAST Prophet” even an illiterate, blind person can tell it means “last prophet.”
Some people just like to twist it around to make others believe that somehow the word last means “more to come.” I think, its just their desperate attempt to prove themselves right by changing the meaning of word “last”.
KoRaaN has allots to say about people like that.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited June 12, 2001).]
Doesn't any one have any original thoughts based on their own knowledge, instead of clogging the thread with this stolen material from other people without acknowledging their efforts? I guess not, LOL, what would you expect around here from these infants.
Punjabi Kurhi
[This message has been edited by amy (edited June 12, 2001).]
Amy
We've all seen your original thoughts now haven't we!
hello grand-nanny (of satan) Amy,
so you found this website, and started to think that Hadith are baseless... is that your original thought? cool.
anyway, it is useless to argue with a satan, so I won't argue with you anymore, and you should stop bull$iting around... stop calling names of the scholars. you are not a civilized person, so we are free to not talk to you in civilized way. you don't know how to argue/discuss. since you didn't start any topic from your OWN ORIGINAL thought, you are defending a so-called doctor Rashad the imposter by any means you can... you make a good loyal pet.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?