So how tough is it to get into a training post in the UK these days. Im planning on giving my PLAB and will be in the UK i’A by this time next year. I have no immediate family or relatives to support my stay there. But I might have an advantage of being flexible in any post location i can get. Can someone please elaborate on this for me. Is it really as hard as its made out to be?
Re: Doctors in the UK
Pretty much.
My husband was planning to take the September Plab 1 exam but it got full before we got the chance to apply. The next one is in December. Then one has to take Part 2 (which you will have to come to the UK for, get a visa etc), which a lot of Pakistani docs fail first time unless they have very good clinical skills.
After that, you can start looking for work. It depends what level you are coming in at?
F1 posts are the most difficult to get, especially if you will be getting a work visa.
Re: Doctors in the UK
Ive already completed 1 year of internship so it'll be FY2 for me i guess?
The difficult part is getting information about surviving there, it's very different from 4-5 years ago.
now all the usmle visa reject docs are getting on the plab bandwagon.
I was preparing for the September one but i didn't feel completely prepared so i deferred it for march next year when its going to be held in pakistan next.
I dont think I'd be able to stay an indefinite period of time looking for a post as it'll be just me and my to-be husband supporting ourselves. I just hope its sooner rather than later.
Re: Doctors in the UK
If you're gonna be in Pakistan for another year, I'd probably suggest finishing another year of the junior house job so you can come in at a higher level. There will be more posts open to you.
Most people with 6months-1year of experience post graduating, still try and come in at the F1 level.
I guess you will initially only get a visa to come here take Plab Part 2?
After that, a work visa is only granted once you have secured a job, so you may have to do that from Pakistan. This wouldn't have been an option a year ago. They had stopped giving work visa's to doctors, it has only just recently opened up again.
It will be difficult without anyone to support you. Most people I know (like my husband) are spouses of British Citizen's. Or they are spouses of people with a work visa; we know two engineers who got jobs and 4 year work visa, which has given their wives the opportunity to take the Plab and look for work here without worrying about visa issues.
Don't be discouraged but it can take some time. My cousin's husband who was already quite qualified in Pak, spent almost 2 years before he got a proper job and was ready to go back to Pak. Now he's doing his GP training and they are settled and happy.
Re: Doctors in the UK
thanks stoppit!
Re: Doctors in the UK
medicine here is quite tough, let alone the training,. but the university admission are as touch as staying awakje for 10 years wothout sleep
Re: Doctors in the UK
Hi Guys I have a quick question ... so what category Visa do you get when you say "work visa"
and if someone gets accepted by a GP to work in their practice as a junior Doctor ... will that qualify for their F2 ?
Re: Doctors in the UK
Hi CB,
The rules are continually changing, so I will need to do some reading to help determine this but off the top of my head, it will probably be the HSMP visa.
Obviously, you will need proof of employment for any kind of work visa. To work in a GP surgery, the person will need to be a qualified doctor and accepted on the GP training programme.
Basically, if you assume we’re talking about a British medical graduate, he/she will need to first do the F1 year (until they have completed this, they have provisional registration with the GMC and are not licensed to practice medicine without supervision), they then do the F2 year, which is also based in hospital rotations. After this, they embark on their chosen route i.e. GP training, which I believe is 3 years to completion.
For foreign doctors such as my husband, applying for F1 is done through the official foundation doctor training programme (kinda like UCAS) same as British grads but you first have to be deemed eligible to apply. If he had already done one year in Pak (which he may well go back and do), he would be eligible for full GMC registration and then could go on a job search and apply for any locums, private hospital work, apply to fill in F1 or F2 posts (sometimes they have 6 months of these for doctors who have changed locations/abandoned posts) etc.
If you’re coming from abroad it’s slightly different. In the case of my cousin’s husband, he can completed beyond F1 and F2 in Pakistan. He came here (as a spouse), sat both parts of the PLAB exam and submitted evidence of his posts in Pakistan to gain full GMC registration (without full registration you cannot gain any employment other than F1), then did locum posts and other short contracts until he was accepted on the GP training.
Now the thing is, if you’re not in the UK because of a spouse visa, you will still need to pass PLAB and gain full GMC registration before anyone can offer you a job. This is because any time an employer makes an offer, they have to show they considered British medical graduates as well and there must be a sound reason for offering it to an IMG. The GP training is through this scheme: http://www.gprecruitment.org.uk/
There are other complications, such as PLAB 1 can be taken in Pakistan (there are 2 sittings a year) but PLAB 2 has to be taken in Manchester, so a visa would be required to come and sit that here. There was a large crackdown on people coming on visit visas and sitting PLAB 2, so I know this was under review. I think there is a visa for the purposes of taking the PLAB exam, which requires proof that you have booked the test. Btw, it’s not possible to book PLAB 2 until PLAB 1 is passed and the fee is currently £430.
http://www.nhsrecruits.com/visa_information.asp
http://www.visaforuk.com/plab_test.html
I don’t think what you have suggested will be suitable or possible.
Hope that helps!
Re: Doctors in the UK
Thanks Stoppit for such a detailed note ...
So If I were to map the journey for a MBBS from Pakistan , who has completed their one year training and is not coming on spouse visa so will have to arrange their own visa ..
Following are the steps that they will be taking ...
please Stoppit , could you find out the info , thats marked in red .. Believe me this will help alot of people :
1- Sit Plab One from Pakistan and pass IELTS
2- Book Plab 2 and arrange to come to the UK ... How long is the Plab visa for ?
3- While preparing for PLAB2 , candidate can find a role for an attachment with the UK doctor or GP for experience ?
4- Sits PLAB 2 , passes , starts arranging with GMC to get full registration? So far My cousin was told that even though she has completed one year training from Pakistan , she will only be exempted for F1 , she will still have to do a year long F2 and then she will be given full GMC ...
5- So candidate starts applying all over the country for F2 roles ... what visa will they be on in that time and the duration of the visa ?
6- After completing F2 , candidate starts process to get full GMC registration ... once they have achieved it , they start looking for locum roles or junior doctor roles across the country ... at this point what visa options do they have?
7- Once they start work and get settled , they apply for Tier 2 General visa ( formerly HSMP)
8- And the route is smooth from there on ....
Thanks once again Stoppit for all your help. I know you will have to speak to a few people to gain this informtion and all your help is much appreciated , lots of people arent able to find this info anywhere , hence you will be doing a favour to many of them .
Re: Doctors in the UK
Hi CB -
-
First academic IELTS must be taken. Minimum 7.0 in each area and 7.0 overall. Then PLAB 1 make be booked and taken. The next sitting in Pakistan isn’t until September and places go fast so she much book a place asap. She should keep working until then.
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/plab/before_you_apply.asp -
As soon as the result for PLAB 1 is obtained, she can book PLAB 2. But it should be further enough in the future that she has time to get her visa. If you cancel a booking, you cannot get a full refund. So she will need to find out how long the visa typically takes to be granted before booking the test date.
As a side note, it is well worth consulting a solicitor who has dealt with this kinds of visas. The UKBA/Home Office make it as difficult as possible to get visas and even the smallest thing can have your application returned. -
I believe the PLAB 2 visa is 6 months long. I would try and come just before the first sitting, so if it’s not passed, there is time to book and try again.
Candidate can find an attachment. Hospital is preferable to GP because most likely the first job will be in the hospital and they will want to know that you are familiar with the way the NHS works and the hospital environment. Some hospitals offer attachments for a fee but generally they want you to have passed PLAB 2 before you apply. -
Can you get your cousin to confirm this with the GMC? It is quite likely though, if she’s only done the equivalent of F1, then she will need to do F2. The real question is, if she has done 2 years in Pakistan can she get full registration (although the first year of work will still need to be in an “approved setting”)?
-
The candidate can apply for F2 roles or whatever is available. I wouldn’t turn my nose up at F1 posts either. They can apply whilst on the PLAB visa.
But here is the catch, you cannot work unless you are on a work visa. For employment, the candidate will need to go back to their country and apply for the HSMP, **but **I would confirm this with a solicitor and see if there is any way around it.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/visitandtransit/plabtest
- After completing F2 and gaining full registration, they are open to posts the same as any other doctors. They can apply for the GP training scheme or in hospital posts (training years s1-s6) and begin taking their professional exams i.e. MRCP.
This will be on the same visa as previously.
In addition, I would strongly recommend a PLAB course if the candidate wants to pass first time. The tests are just as much about knowing the way the GMC wants you to think as a doctor as they are about medical knowledge. Some very bright students have not passed because they did not know what the exam is actually testing the candidates on.
There is a PLAB course in Ilford (PLABTrainer) run by Dr. Swamy. It’s very good and has a high pass rate. I believe you can attend this course whilst on the PLAB 2 visa. People were attending it on visit visas and things but there was a crackdown on that by the home office. They also have NHS orientation courses which seem useful if an attachment is not obtained.
Re: Doctors in the UK
Hmmm thanks so much Stoppit ... so question is ... say after the plab 2 is passed and GMC full registration achieved .. and the visa runs out... the candidate will go back to home country and start applying for F2 opportunities ... is that going to yield any results or will that be next to impossible for the student to continue their UK dream?
Re: Doctors in the UK
After PLAB 2 is passed, the candidate still cannot work on that same visa, so full GMC registration may not be possible at that point. I would call the GMC and find out how much work is needed in Paksitan (and what professional exams) so that the candidate can get full GMC reg after PLAB 2.
The candidate can apply whilst he/she is in the UK and it's at the employers discretion if they will give the job offer providing the candidate gets the work visa. Otherwise, yes, it does seem like the candidate will have to go back and apply from their home country. Work visa's are only granted when there is solid proof of a job offer (I would check for all the requirements). To be honest, I don't know anyone that has achieved this, unless they have some links i.e. a relative who has a high enough post in a hospital and makes the job offer so that the candidate can apply for the visa.
My husband could not apply for the F1 scheme without first showing that he had a valid UK visa.
Re: Doctors in the UK
yeah thats a problem .... We have spoken to GMC and they said , when you have done your one year internship in Pakistan , it will exempt you from F1 here ... but even if you complete the second year in Pakistan , you will still need to do your F2 from here as you mentioned "under the approved setting"
So I guess we will now have to try and find the visa route for international candidates ... do you know anyone who might be in the struggle? and might be able to give us an insight to this?
Re: Doctors in the UK
From my knowledge, there are no visa routes other than spouse visa of a British national, spouse visa for someone on an HSMP visa, or a HSMP visa for the candidate themselves because they have a job offer in their hand already. This last route used to be do-able 10 years or so ago but since the system completely changed, there are very few "extra" places at F1 and F2 level because they only really create as many as there are UK graduates that year. Most IMG's are taking places that would have otherwise been filled by British grads who failed their final exams or who decide to go abroad. Even then, when a position is available, the preference has to be made in this order: British graduates, EU citizens/grads, then IMGs. And where a place is being offered to an IMG they have to show that there is a solid reason for the offer (i.e. they are the best candidate). So as I mentioned, if one's uncle is a consultant, there might be a chance.
I know lots of doctors who have managed to get employed here after the exams and a long wait applying and doing attachments in the mean while but the thing they all had in common was no visa issues because they had a visa that automatically gave them the right to work in the UK.
I know some of my husband's classmates would like to come here and are taking PLAB exams whilst doing their house job in Pak but the reality of them actually making it here is unknown.
Re: Doctors in the UK
hmmmm ... if we know a consultant ... in NHS , are they capable of influencing HR's decision?
Re: Doctors in the UK
i really need help too.
I have been granted the settlement visa - the probationary period being 27 months and I have to spend at least two years in the UK to be elligible to apply for ILR.
now I just graduated from my med school here in Pakistan. So naturally I wouldn't be able to do housejob here. Although I scored really great marks and at the moment amongst the highest merit for housejob.
Do I have hope for getting the Pre-registered house officer vacancy and chances of getting into a training post?
I really want to specialise and work...but I have heard the PRHO level seats are QUITE scarce ..this is so daunting :(
Re: Doctors in the UK
Hi Enigmatic, you are in the same situation my husband is in but some months behind. You're right, they are scarce but there is a chance for the positions that are not filled by UK graduates. Especially if you have fulfilled all the requirements, such as passing both parts of PLAB and holding a visa that allows you to work.
Now, your difficulty is that you cannot stay in Pak and do 1 year of house job because of your visa requirements, you have to stay in the UK and make an attempt. My husband got his spouse visa before he finished his final year, which delayed his move here and now has caused some complications for his ILR - he has to apply for FLR instead, which is more strict.
In October of this year (2011), the foundation programme applications will begin for posts starting in August 2012; it's an online application form - part CV and part questions that you will be scored on. However, before this (around August this year) you must apply for eligibility to apply for the foundation programme. This requires filling in a form, submitting evidence of your M.B.B.S, academic IELTS, visa photocopy which much be valid until Aug 2012 .
My husband was able to satisfy them on all points, except his spouse visa was expiring in Feb 2011 (they wanted until Aug 2011). They did not accept that he will surely get a continued visa being a spouse. This made him partially eligible - so he could apply (and has) but he will be considered behind "fully" eligible applicants. He should get his FLR soon and then we will contacting them to upgrade him to fully eligible.
So take a note of this - if your settlement visa expires before Aug 2012, you won't be fully eligible either. And you cannot even apply for IRL until 28 days before the visa is due to expire.
Another thing for Eligibility is that you must have passed PLAB 1 or evidence that you have booked it. If you have booked it, you need to submit evidence of passing it by March. I'd advise sitting it asap so that you can show that you have passed when you apply for eligibility. Otherwise you will only have one shot in December. PLAB part 2 must also be passed before the next August and the pass evidence submitted before June.
It's a long wait now that they have this year long application system. Most people do their exams and get as many clinical attachments as possible during this time so that they have a good looking C.V. My cousin who's an anaesthetist here suggested that my husband should see if he can do any other exams from the Royal Colleges (advanced life support etc) to boost his C.V. as well.
But it's clear that there is opportunity. The foundation programme sent out emails to IMGs saying that they will be holding a second round of applications in June/July for the unfilled places providing applicants have passed PLAB 1 and 2. They also included how many partially eligible applicants got what scores so that you could figure out how many candidates were above you.
As I mentioned above, you should really try to attend a PLAB course since you haven't worked as a house officer yet. I think it's especially important for PLAB 2.
Re: Doctors in the UK
thanks alot stoppit :)
Well am going to the UK in first week of May IA and my spouse visa expires by June 2013. When should I sit for my PLAB 1 then?
I don't think I would be able to immediately as I would be settling there and would also have my in laws coming over in June for a month to attend a very close relatives shadi.
Re: Doctors in the UK
Ah cool, well if all goes well i’A you can be working in just over a year.
The PLAB 1 dates for this year are 17th June, 8th September and 19th November. So you should really try and do the September one. If you don’t or if you fail, November will be your last chance for the F1 eligibility.
Plabtrainerhas courses in June-Aug for the September PLAB 1 exam. I would really recommend attending if you want to pass first time. You will also meet a lot of doctors in the same position as you. It’s been great for my husband, he’s made some good friends and has a good support network of other people going through the same thing.
Re: Doctors in the UK
Wow that all sounds really good Stoppit … here’s another question if you can help please … My sister is also on the same route … she has done her Plab one … will be moving ahead quickly for Plab 2 … after that she will be trying for HSMP or Tier 2 general visa …
I heard there were some restrictions for that visa holders to work in training contracts .. she will be looking to start her F2 here just like my cousin …
She is opting for Tier 2 visa so that she doesnt have issues getting on to the F2 … 
wise or not?