Do you think

[psyah]

Re: Do you think

Peace Med911

I’ve abridged your post for ease:

@Med911

1. What of a situation in which a husband is accused of forcing intercourse upon his wife, is that considered rape? Should it be punished, or should it not? Opinions will differ, even among Muslims. How can you decide what is just in this case? And what if there are those who are so entrenched in their opinion that no scholar but those that agree with them will be acceptable?

2. Whose definition of modesty is valid?

3. The west views the issue of sex education very differently from you. They see it as** teaching children about their own bodies**, which is very important so a child understands what is happening, particularly during puberty. And there is no correlation between sex education and promiscuity.

4. There are women who have no concept of contraceptives. All these I think would be important for people in a country like Pak with its over-sized population.

5. The scholars you speak of dont exist. No scholars ever agree on anything. Recall what happened to the renowned scholar Sarfaraz Naeemi, who disagreed with Taliban… Look where the Scholar Javed Ahmad Ghamdi is today after receiving threats? Im afraid your scholars will be risking their life in your Pakistan.

6. Let me ask you this, your Shariat may allow rights for all minorities, but what of those who are murdering Hindus, Christians, Ahmadis and Shias? Will they simply accept the proclamations of your scholars?

7. And what if your scholars themselves come to the conclusion that Ahmadis should all be shot? What if they say that all women without a dupatta should be beaten or worse? Should we just all accept this?

8. We all make wealth and power our goal, no matter how much we deny it.

9. All societies yearn for a system that just and ideal, even as they know it will never be perfect.
   You see the Western secular capitalist world has the same goal as the ideal Islamic society. The goal is a just and prosperous society.

10. The difference is that the West creates a mold to fit society, while you wish to create a society to fit your prefabricated mold. This mold which you call Shariah, is the problem because the dynamics of society refuse to fit that mold. But beyond this, we cant even decide on which mold we are to try to fit into. There are those willing to murder mercilessly, anyone and everyone who disagrees with their concept of what this mold should be. So while you argue over semantics, and your scholars bang their heads together trying to create the one mold that will fit every dynamic of society forever and ever, the real problems of society go unaddressed. The wisdom of the west lies in the fact that they realize that you cannot control how society evolves, you can not make a society 'be" a certain way.

11. And remember, the road to hell is paved with good intention. Im afraid that in trying to regulate morality, however well intentioned we may be, we end up creating more problems then are resolved. If the history of Pakistan has taught us anything, good intention rarely create anything good in the long run.

Thanks for this response … To further discuss the points you have raised … I sincerely hope that you understand that we should not criticise another when the position we occupy has the same deficiency.

On this basis let’s look at

1. The problem you identify is that of a husband being unjust to his wife. My answer to that is a judge in the West may differ from another judge in the way they approach the problem. You state that opinions will vary between Muslims, but the same applies in the West. However making note of another point you make later which is : *the West creates a mold to fit society, while you wish to create a society to fit your prefabricated mold. *Assuming that this statement is cogent I would have thought there is more consistency in a prefabricated mold than a mold constantly changing to fit what it contains. Even physically the mold is rigid and the filling is fluid … it makes logical sense that the contained is what should adjust to the mold. So if there is a standard to go by then people aim for that standard. You see I am not only contesting your logic about what mold is better, but also pointing to the fact that the differing opinions will occur in any society among any two judges regardless of the system they follow and going by your mold definition it should happen more frequently in a moving society than one that goes by fixed standards.

The actual answer is that it will be a case by case decision about whether the husband did use undue force or harmed his wife in which case it is dealt with accordingly.

2. Ok, next you ask whose definition of modesty is valid. Well you see this brings about another affair … in the West we are not allowed to strip naked in public, except in designated areas. Public sex is not allowed. However some people may have differing opinions. In fact the conservatives and liberals often differ on how much nudity can or should be shown on TV. If it is possible to have groups of people align themselves in to parties based on their orientations of liberal vs conservative then why can’t they align themselves on the basis of consensus. Look some people say it is acceptable to eat meat at KFC, some say it is not. Then in order to cater for everyone it is better to avoid KFC if an official body has overall responsibility for the group. Scale this up and you have your country dynamics. Shari’ah is not an alien entity that differs from the methods of statecraft today, but I believe it to be a superior form of the same thing.

3. Regarding sex edcuation … yes they advertise sex education as “changes to your body” but in practice they do not limit it to this … they go one more step to talk about relationships and contraception and this should not be discussed as it removes the taboo from the act.

4. Over-population should not be an issue for young children … contraceptives should be taught in adult classes only, otherwise not taught at all. Why should some organisations have exclusive rights to free advertising for their product?

5. There are plenty of scholars who agree, they do so mostly actually even Shi’a and Sunnis on many things … you just don’t hear about that because it 'aint sensational enough to broadcast.

6. If the leadership is structured where sincere advice is sought from scholars then minority groups will not be harmed and individuals not given undue or unnecessary burdens.

7. This again is not an argument against Shari’ah the same problem exists in secular societies … in fact for a moving mold it is more likely to happen. I got caught for a parking fine, because the law changed from a fives minutes overdue to a lower amount.

8. I do deny it … I feel you should accept that as true - or of course deny my denial …

9. Disagree - a capitalist model is based on greater rights to ones own at the price of others - they depend on disparity.

10. As mentioned before there is no wisdom in the Western model, just clever selfish intent. Scholars will not ever make a single model to fit all, but will apply things in different contexts … Islam fits well with culture, history should show you that.

11. Two things … the road to hell is paved with good intentions … may be so … but this is not an all encompassing statement … there are caveats … which are

• so long as ends are used to justify the means
• and we seek not from God protection from evil elements

then yes … **the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Otherwise … the road to paradise is the good intention followed by cautious treading seeking help and advice all the way.**