Do you think

Society Religion & Philosophy
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we need organized religion to properly follow Islam?

think hard.

Islam-deen, way of life, not religion.

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Re: Do you think

As per your point of view what is the difference between Islam as deen and Islam as religion ? :hmmm:

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Re: Do you think

Religion- infested by wannabe Scholars, adulterated with people's own agendas and divisions, instillation of fear among the masses rather than an understanding of Islam, a way to keep people thinking along the same line. to hold people down. Creating mere puppets out of people, infested with elements of man-made ideas.

deen- following Quran and Sunnah.

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Re: Do you think

:mirch:
Calm down please .
That will fit the definition of a cult not a religion. Very few people will follow a cult.
You are making gross generalizations. Quran and Sunnah has to be spelled out by true scholars for masses. All the scholars are not wanna be and a true Islamic scholar will not declare himself/herself as scholar , they always call themselves students of deen. Other people consider them scholars and respect them for their knowledge.

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Re: Do you think

I still see a difference between deeen and religion. I didnt say all scholars are bad, there are people with a good amount of knowledge and we need to make use of their knowledge to properly understand.

a true scholar and a wannabe scholar are two diff things. :snooty:

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Re: Do you think

Pepsi ki Botal I understand what you mean. In part I agree with you.

Likewise Mirch bhai is also right. I agree with him as well.

Islam was, always has been and always will be an organised religion and not a cult. However Islam should not be taken into the same context as other faiths.

For example in Islam there is no such thing as Clergy, although in some Shia beliefs the Imams might equate to clerics. Generally speaking Islam has no clergy but many scholars. Whilst many do abuse thier powers the greatest as Mirch said will never admit to being scholars.

However I know what your hinting at and this is part of a wider problem. Its not the religion though which is at fault but the people who propagate falsehood and abuse thier powers, this is an obvious human trait.

Know Marxists for example might suggest that Religion is a tool for control.... howerver Islam if you look into it is a Religion that brought far more freedom to many people than it supposedly controls. There is an interesting Left Wing theory that Islam is in fact a religion more of liberation and freedom than a tool of control.

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Re: Do you think

^exactly what i was thinking. When i say organized religion I mean Christianity and its history throughout time. If we look at how the divisions took place over centuries [esp in Europe] and how different sects came about and how the "clergy" influenced people and misused its powers and added false ideas as desired, we will realize that it's not very "religious" but perhaps more political? , I am not sure what cult has to do with this thread.

So in that sense, Islam is only a deen. We cannot look at Islam the same way we see other religions. How does this message become clear.

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Exactly. :k:

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[QUOTE]
I am not sure what cult has to do with this thread.

[/QUOTE]

I think if you take away the organisation aspect of Islam it would become a cult. No namaz, no zakat, no Hajj, no rozay.... it would be like a Hippy Cult or a Tribal pre-Islamic belief system where everyone sort of believes in a "Sky Father" or "Earth Mother" etc.

In Islam the organisation is an essential part of the "Deen" as you would call it. For example something simple like fasting actually feeds the soul while it starves the body. Azan for example before Namaz is like clockwork where it is heard all round the world one time after another... these are almost miracles in thier own right and are a central part of Islam.

Without scholars to interpret the truth and teach the youth this system would cease.

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Re: Do you think

Islam is an idea
Islam is the natural order
Islam is the prefered madhab
Islam is a way of life

In different contexts any of one these are true ... Islam an idea is that Islam means to submit to Allah's Will, Islam as the natural order is when we follow what we were designed to follow. Islam as a madhab is when we talk about the 5 pillars of Islam and what it means to enjoin those pillars and Islam as a way of life is that it is involved in our civil and stately affairs to encourage good and discourage evil in others ... by way of the fear of penalties for crimes and by way of charity distribution to mitigate poverty related injustices ... and ofcourse moral media. This aspect which is known as Shari'ah is the state creating a fertile environment for people to be able to undertaken their 5 pillars without obstacle.

Islam can never be a way of life until our most basic needs are attached to our worship ...

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Re: Do you think

^ Thanks for breakign it all down so nicely. :)

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I didn't want people to just state the obvious. =\

anyways, I like how you made the clockwork analogy, Faris, that makes sense.

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Social lives and Professional lives are organised - and if we make Islam a way of life it means making Islam part of our social and professional activities ... since these are organised it makes sense that Islam should be organised too.

Also Jammat prayers as someone mentioned earlier have to be organised in order for jammats to take place.

Then there are the celebrations and so on ...

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Re: Do you think

Depends on who is organizing it... Taliban, Saudis, Pak govt, Deobandis, Barelvis etc etc. The problem is that there are multiple organizers who cant decide how they want things to be organized. They fight amongst themselves, and in the process trounce all over the basic tenants of faith that we all agree on.

We dont need an "organized" anything, except a properly organized mind to practice Islam.

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Re: Do you think

Dont western Non Muslim societies also discourage evil and encourage good by way of of fear of of penalties? And isnt Social Security and welfare also a way to mitigate poverty related injustices? Would you say that England/US then are states that promote an Islamic way of life?

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ding ding ding :smiley: water cooler apka hua. :k:

thanks, this is what i couldn’t put into words.

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Peace Med911

I've been trying to understand what it is you are saying ... please explain that line in blue.

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Re: Do you think

Evil and Good are defined by Allah ... so it may appear to some that Western societies or any society today discourages evil and encourages good, but it will only qualify if they are as defined in Islam ... For example - yes we are warned about the harms of smoking but yet cigs are allowed to be sold ... banks all over the world engage in riba which is evil so technically the answer is no ... it is not about Muslims societies or the West - it is about Islam which is not really present anywhere as a state.

Yes there are some aspects of good in western societies as there are in Muslim dominated regions but neither of them encapsulate Islam the way it was meant to be encapsulated.

England and US promote Islamic way of life? May be more than some in some aspects and less than others in other aspects ...

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Re: Do you think

Seems a tad naive to think a truly "Islamic" society could even be possible, no?

I mean, before one can even discuss trying to create such an ideal society, one has to determine which interpretation to follow. There are so many schools of thought in Islam, how can anyone possibly create a society which satisfies everyone. What is evil to you may not be evil to someone else. Its all relative.

Western society is perhaps being pragmatic, and realistic.

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Re: Do you think

Peace Med911

I've been trying to understand what it is you are saying in post #17... please explain

We dont need an "organized" anything, except a properly organized mind to practice Islam.

It sound as though you have a point, but with further investigation you will see that not only are there fairly universal ideas of right and wrong amongst Muslim groups but they also extend to all people of every walk of life ... it's just that in much of the moral standards of countries outside Islam there is no real wisdom - they will see it as wrong to rape but they see no problem in revealing yourself, but they fail to connect that the lure is present even more to encourage rape ... Also, they make the wrong decisions to prevent underaged preganacies ... they teach children about sex and tell them how to avoid getting pregnant - this is practically giving matches to kids ... and telling them not to light them ... however the idea that a child having a child with no support outside a firm arrangement of a couple who are mature is universally understood by all.

In the detail yes there will be differences but then that is why we would have scholars as advisors. To mitigate the problem of lots of different voices of sects - the answer is straightforward - the Islamic state operates its law based on the opinions of the scholarly majority. It is the people to appoint leadership.

Islam is not meant to be utpoia ... that would be a fallacy - Islam is the state that manages affairs with Justice ... that is the reality of Shariah ... so in implementing Shari'ah now it would have to be just by being subtly different only to what people are used to ... then orientate itself towards the ideal - knowing that it will probably not ever get there, but nonetheless try to aim for it ...

The west has made wealth and power its ultimate goal and they favour themselves over others - willing to subdue them in order to enjoy their own lives, but this is not the standard of moral conduct in any society ... apart from some people in history being "self-serving at the cost of the harm of others" is not a morally correct position, but that is what the West is doing nonetheless ...

I would consider an Islamic state Islamic if it operates it's commerce outside Riba as a starting point.