Do you Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

[USResident]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

The same way a perfect game in bowling doesn't include any gutter balls. Or a perfect game by a pitcher doesn't include any walks. Or a perfect exam paper doesn't contain any typos or false statements. Or a perfect dinner doesn't contain any salmonella. You don't have to have bad traits to balance good traits. Good is good. Bad is bad. Perfection is perfection. Perfection doesn't contain flaws. There is no way I can believe that God encompasses the imperfect human flaws such as greed, envy, anger, hate, etc.

So when we say does not possess anger or hate or other attributes, do you mean non-existent or used when appropriate. A man can have anger but also know how to control it and supplant it with affection the same we know Gods mercy prevails over his wrath.

[Seminole]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

So when we say does not possess anger or hate or other attributes, do you mean non-existent or used when appropriate. A man can have anger but also know how to control it and supplant it with affection the same we know Gods mercy prevails over his wrath.

One doesn't "possess" anger and hate. They are emotions - imperfect emotions. So whether God "possesses" them isn't the point - it's whether or not he deals with man with imperfect emotions. The words, commandents and actions represent these imperfections, not whether or not he possesses them.

But your example of a man having anger but controlling it is not a good example as the religious texts I mentioned demonstrate that God hasn't controlled these imperfections.

[m249boost]

Re: Do you Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Each radical religious break from convention has come due to social, economic, political, and other factors at that time. This makes each such religion a contextually grounded, living, breathing response to the circumstances from which it emerged. Sometimes it drew upon and added to thoroughly documented traditions of the time (Judaism, for instance, with the God of Micah seen as the same as the God of Noah despite hugely differing portrayals of the Deity). At other times these religious responses arose from and then broke away completely (such as with Christianity), or emerged from totally different circumstances and drew upon elements already present (such as Islam).

Jews documented their nationalist history extensively (though most likely from their captivity in Babylon onwards, and thus drawing upon Babylonian myths and legends too) and certainly knew their religion thoroughly. They proved eloquent in these matters and consummate at exegesis, midrash and religious debate.

So when people presented Yeshua‘ (Jesus) as THE Messiah expected by the Jews they had a fight on their hands, not least of which because nothing in Judaism predicted a messiah who would die before emancipating them. Earliest Christians naturally came from Jewish stock. Accordingly they drew upon Jewish history (they had to so that others would engage them in debate). Gentile Christians, therefore, had to subsume the entire Tanakh as their Old Testament in order to establish Jesus’ place within history — only to break him away from it.

Of course, Muhammad had a much more radical, even grand¡loquent, solution: simply to declare that the Jews and Christians had corrupted their holy books and had strayed from their true path. Therefore he had no need to argue with them on their own religious grounds.

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Thanks for yanking out the same old quotes out of context that people always do to try and paint Jesus as a man who advocated violence. I hope that makes you feel better about your own beliefs.

Peace my Born Again friend Seminole

Funny that "out of context" nature is what I was thinking about how you were acting regarding the prophets (AS) of the Old Testament and Muhammad (SAW).

If my context is wrong then show how it is wrong. Jesus (AS) was no passifist according to the Bible not me.

For me it is clear cut all prophets have used warning (of punishment) and enticement (of reward) to push people towards God. Jesus (AS) is no exception.

Just read what John the Baptist has to say about him ... who he considers is not worthy to tie the strap of his sandle ... that he will baptist with The Spirit and with Fire ... who is that? What will be the mission of Jesus (AS) on his return? It will be military won't it.

Come you can do better than brush off my "quotes" explain where I have gone wrong!

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Does being perfect mean benevolent and only good. Based on what you believe, attributes are selectively chosen and the definition of perfection revolves around only those attributes. My definition of perfection (or a muslims) hinges upon the possession of every attribute there is and the being (God) should encompass all of them.

How can God be perfect and complete if he does not possess every attribute that exists. By believing God only possesses a select number of attributes and his perfection revolves around those would mean we are closing our eyes to reality and balance of traits.

Imperfection is only bad when it lacks a desired trait. God doesn't lack any traits which is what makes him perfect. If he possesses traits of hate or wrath it does not make him bad. It would be bad if they existed without a balancing trait such as love or mercy.

Peace USResident bhai

Just a slight caution is that we cannot ying yang the Attributes of God. We are told that He is Unique and Samad and Utterly One. His Wrath and Mercy and all such things are a means for us to understand Him only. The balancing argument can only loosely be applied, because we are told in the Qur'an that His Mercy surpasses His Wrath. i.e. there is not a balancing act here.

I guess the way to understand it is not as opposite Attributes. Because if such Attribute opposite arguments were to be held on to then we present ourselves with problems such as then God becomes man, Creator becomes Created, these are fallacious arguments of course.

Rather as the most Supreme, Ultimate, and Absolute attributes reside in our understand of God. For example we can be just, but The Just is reserved for God. We can be brilliant but The Perfect is a title reserved for God. We are at odds to ourselves and one another so The One is reserved for God. This way we can never fall into the dangerous balancing acts.

We know that the Knoweldge of God is boundless

The Wrathful Punishment of God should be viewed alongside His Mercy not as an opposite but as a complimentary. How so? Well that we should understand that Punishment to those who earn His Wrath is required for His Justice to prevail for those people who have earned His Mercy and received His Reward.

[psyah]

Re: Do you Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

... Furthermore ...

And in that Punishment it is a Mercy for their souls to be purified from what they have harmed themselves with, i.e. sin.

[simplyme]

Re: Do you Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

^^

[quote]

Originally quoted by *psyah *
Peace my Born Again friend Seminole

Funny that "out of context" nature is what I was thinking about how you were acting regarding the prophets (AS) of the Old Testament and Muhammad (SAW).

If my context is wrong then show how it is wrong. Jesus (AS) was no passifist according to the Bible not me.

For me it is clear cut all prophets have used warning (of punishment) and enticement (of reward) to push people towards God. Jesus (AS) is no exception.

Just read what John the Baptist has to say about him ... who he considers is not worthy to tie the strap of his sandle ... that he will baptist with The Spirit and with Fire ... who is that? What will be the mission of Jesus (AS) on his return? It will be military won't it.

Come you can do better than brush off my "quotes" explain where I have gone wrong!

[/quote]

If the mission of Jesus was military, then he would have raised an army and spread His version of religion by the sword. Even when he was captured, he healed the wound of his tormentor.

why dont you understand the following quote "One who lives by the sword will die by the sword". This would give you a better perspective on what christanity is all about..

[USResident]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

One doesn't "possess" anger and hate. They are emotions - imperfect emotions. So whether God "possesses" them isn't the point - it's whether or not he deals with man with imperfect emotions. The words, commandents and actions represent these imperfections, not whether or not he possesses them.

But your example of a man having anger but controlling it is not a good example as the religious texts I mentioned demonstrate that God hasn't controlled these imperfections.

Explain how they are imperfect? They are emotions and can be used. What you are saying is that they are imperfect and hence you do not accept that even God has these characteristics. How he uses them is another story that cannot be paralleled with how we use them. I think you do not accept that God has given us a criteria based upon which he will subject us to those attributes or characteristics of his but he has also told his mercy prevails over his wrath. The existence of a certain attribute or characteristic is not imperfection, imperfection comes in how it is used.

Anyway, I think this will no go much longer but I understand how you look at this and how it is different from our perspective.

[USResident]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? … Att. Seminole

@psyah

Peace USResident bhai

Just a slight caution is that we cannot ying yang the Attributes of God. We are told that He is Unique and Samad and Utterly One. His Wrath and Mercy and all such things are a means for us to understand Him only. The balancing argument can only loosely be applied, because we are told in the Qur’an that His Mercy surpasses His Wrath. i.e. there is not a balancing act here.

I guess the way to understand it is not as opposite Attributes. Because if such Attribute opposite arguments were to be held on to then we present ourselves with problems such as then God becomes man, Creator becomes Created, these are fallacious arguments of course.

Rather as the most Supreme, Ultimate, and Absolute attributes reside in our understand of God. For example we can be just, but The Just is reserved for God. We can be brilliant but The Perfect is a title reserved for God. We are at odds to ourselves and one another so The One is reserved for God. This way we can never fall into the dangerous balancing acts.

We know that the Knoweldge of God is boundless

The Wrathful Punishment of God should be viewed alongside His Mercy not as an opposite but as a complimentary. How so? Well that we should understand that Punishment to those who earn His Wrath is required for His Justice to prevail for those people who have earned His Mercy and received His Reward.

Peace Psyah Bhayya

Yaar aik to mein aap ke PEACE se tang aa gaya hoon, bhai kabhi bhi keh diya karo …

I think you might have misunderstood my ying yangy … by balancing act I do not mean it makes his being or personality zero sum. I was alluding to saying that since an attribute can cause painful consequences for others it should be called imperfect, and extending that argument to say that God cannot possess imperfections. These characteristics are not imperfections and we do not know how different they are from what we possess in a similar term. Humans love but so does Allah SWT but how we feel that love or show it is different and cannot be paralleled and this is where that uniqueness comes in that you are refering to.

They are opposites in the sense of how they bare upon us, obviously punishments are painful and rewards are not. It in no way implies that if Allah SWT is capable of showing mercy and wrath that he has two conflicting personalities. He is Just and just in how he uses all the characteristics he has which are know to us. Him showing us his wrath is not unjust because we provoked it though some calamities are not provoked but out of his SWT infinite wisdom which we do not comprehend.

Perfection is relative. God is perfect in relation to us. Though the relative difference is infinite. We cannot even imagine that degree of perfection.

I hope you are not misunderstanding what I have said. There are times when I am not so eloquent in driving a point.

[Seminole]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@psyah

Peace my Born Again friend Seminole

Funny that "out of context" nature is what I was thinking about how you were acting regarding the prophets (AS) of the Old Testament and Muhammad (SAW).

If my context is wrong then show how it is wrong. Jesus (AS) was no passifist according to the Bible not me.

That is an outrageous statement. Jesus was nothing but a pacifist. You either have a misunderstanding of his message, haven't read the Bible or let these few oft-quoted verses cloud your judgement. By design or by ignorance, I can't say.

If you want a God or prophet of war, you have the OT or the Quran to follow. If you think God's message toward man is a spiritual message more about forgiveness, tolerance, love and peace, then the Biblical Jesus is your man.

[quote]
For me it is clear cut all prophets have used warning (of punishment) and enticement (of reward) to push people towards God. Jesus (AS) is no exception.
[/quote]
Jesus talked little of punishment and hellfire. I think that continues what I believe is the more spiritual message he represents. Carrots and sticks are necessary for those who see things in black and white. A message for the masses, appleaing to the carnal and simple things that all men (including the simple and non-spiritual) can relate to - punishment and reward.

[quote]

Just read what John the Baptist has to say about him ... who he considers is not worthy to tie the strap of his sandle ... that he will baptist with The Spirit and with Fire ... who is that? What will be the mission of Jesus (AS) on his return? It will be military won't it.
[/quote]
No, any return of Jesus will not be as warrior. 3 or 4 verses do not erase the hundreds that preach against that type of behavior.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Hello Seminole,
First, I must apologize for inturrpting, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I am not trying to start a Tom and Jerry fight, but perhaps I can understand your perspective better this way. I may not be endorsing the thread topic through my argumentation if that concerns anyone.

@Seminole

That is an outrageous statement. Jesus was nothing but a pacifist. You either have a misunderstanding of his message, haven't read the Bible or let these few oft-quoted verses cloud your judgement. By design or by ignorance, I can't say.

The whole idea behind presenting the image of Jesus as it is in the Quran, is to portray that his teachings were distorted after him. The scope of my argumentation is limited only to the Quran, and does not extend to Islamic tradition btw. His image from what I understand is neither that of a warrior nor a pacificist, but rather of a balanced one.

@Seminole

If you want a God or prophet of war, you have the OT or the Quran to follow. If you think God's message toward man is a spiritual message more about forgiveness, tolerance, love and peace, then the Biblical Jesus is your man.

Ok let's keep belief aside and look at it objectively. It is true that YHWH/El-Shaddie/El is portrayed as a "jealous/war-like/tribal" God in the OT, however Quran speaks of requital, where nations that are trailing rather than leading in humanity, automatically become extinct... it is portrayed as the law of the universe, a natural selection, a table turned, punishment. At the individual level, the more you work towards betterment of yourself and society, the more your surroundings become like Paradise; at all levels... the more you trail in humanity the more you stoop to subhuman level: Hell. I am not sure how much more spiritual can it get. I am not implying here that the OT and NT are not spiritual.

@Seminole

Jesus talked little of punishment and hellfire. I think that continues what I believe is the more spiritual message he represents. Carrots and sticks are necessary for those who see things in black and white. A message for the masses, appleaing to the carnal and simple things that all men (including the simple and non-spiritual) can relate to - punishment and reward.

Yes, and I think christian tradition has captured this very well. The only caveat I see is many christian traditionalists advocate taking "Christ as The Saviour and Lord" for eternal salvation... what is the flip side?

@Seminole

No, any return of Jesus will not be as warrior. 3 or 4 verses do not erase the hundreds that preach against that type of behavior.

Correct, in fact there will be no return as per my understanding... from what I understand, he did survive the crucifiction and then migrated to lush green high elevated lands (but on Earth, not in the skies) where he may have lived a long life and then died at a mature age.

[psyah]

Re: Do you Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@simplyme

^^

If the mission of Jesus was military, then he would have raised an army and spread His version of religion by the sword. Even when he was captured, he healed the wound of his tormentor. why dont you understand the following quote "One who lives by the sword will die by the sword". This would give you a better perspective on what christanity is all about..

Peace simplyme

I wasna talking in past tense

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@hypnotix-2000

Correct, in fact there will be no return as per my understanding... from what I understand, he did survive the crucifiction and then migrated to lush green high elevated lands (but on Earth, not in the skies) where he may have lived a long life and then died at a mature age.

Peace hypnotix-2000

lush green high elevated lands? died?

Allah (SWT) raised Isa (AS) up to Himself ... are you saying Allah is on lush green lands on Earth?

Please explain how it is that you have come to this understanding.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@psyah

Peace hypnotix-2000

lush green high elevated lands? died?

Allah (SWT) raised Isa (AS) up to Himself ... are you saying Allah is on lush green lands on Earth?

Please explain how it is that you have come to this understanding.

Peace be with you brother

I believe there are no exceptions for anyone... the example of Jesus is that of Adam (any human):

3:59 Behold! the likeness of Jesus by God's reckoning is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be for it is so!

My understanding of Innee Mutawafeeka wa Rafi'uka Ilayy is more along the lines of "I caused you to die and elevated you to me". Rafa'a has been used for exalting (eg. rafa'naa laka zikrak).

As for elevated lands:

23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent, and We gave them refuge on a height, a place of flocks and watersprings.

[Mostar95]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@Raangbaaz

I always wondered why no prophet has been recorded to come for indians or were Buddha, RAAM can be called prophets? Obviously , as far as I know, there is no indication of that either in Islam or christianity. Anyone??

And what about Azteca, Ecudor, Indian America, China, Japan, Arboriginal Australia and NZ?

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@Raangbaaz

Alright. So let me put my question other way: Has there been any visitation by gods in india been recorded. If so then when was the last time gods did actually visit india in their original form not in the form of avtaars?

Peace Raangbaaz

They have been recorded in oral transmissions and in the roots of scriptures. People have developed various interpretations of them. E.g. avtar = prophet not personification of God.

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

And what about Azteca, Ecudor, Indian America, China, Japan, Arboriginal Australia and NZ?

Peace Mostar95

Please read previous post.

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

@hypnotix-2000

Peace be with you brother

I believe there are no exceptions for anyone... the example of Jesus is that of Adam (any human):

3:59 Behold! the likeness of Jesus by God's reckoning is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be for it is so!

My understanding of Innee Mutawafeeka wa Rafi'uka Ilayy is more along the lines of "I caused you to die and elevated you to me". Rafa'a has been used for exalting (eg. rafa'naa laka zikrak).

As for elevated lands:

23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent, and We gave them refuge on a height, a place of flocks and watersprings.

Peace hypnotix-2000

The context of verse 3:59 is the nature of the two prophets not their mission.
Verse 23:50 refers to the birth of Isa (AS) and the place where he was brought up to adulthood. Compare flowing streams with the references for the water that was provided to Maryam (AS).

Then there are many hadiths which point to the fact of bodily ascension to the heavens and many Biblical references to it also.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Peace brother,

The context of verse 3:59 is the nature of the two prophets not their mission. Verse 23:50 refers to the birth of Isa (AS) and the place where he was brought up to adulthood. Compare flowing streams with the references for the water that was provided to Maryam (AS).

The idea in these verses is to convey to the Nestorians/Christians (naSaaraa) about the nature of Jesus... that he was not God but human, just as Adam.

Then there are many hadiths which point to the fact of bodily ascension to the heavens and many Biblical references to it also.

You know my stance on hadith... IMO ascesnsion of Jesus and Muhammad was in their character and spirituality, not physicality. Physical ascension has no value in my eyes, and defeats the purpose of a Divine message (i.e, God is beyond magic and miracles.)

[psyah]

Re: Do the Haters Know the Man? ... Att. Seminole

Peace brother,

The idea in these verses is to convey to the Nestorians/Christians (naSaaraa) about the nature of Jesus... that he was not God but human, just as Adam.

You know my stance on hadith... IMO ascesnsion of Jesus and Muhammad was in their character and spirituality, not physicality. Physical ascension has no value in my eyes, and defeats the purpose of a Divine message (i.e, God is beyond magic and miracles.)

Peace hypnotix-2000

Not God but human - yes, perzactly that ... it is an ayat comparing their nature not function.

Yep I know your stance on hadith. Physical ascension has no value in my eyes either. It is said, what is said is justified, it is compatible with the end times scenarios and that is enough for me.

Magic and miracles are not the same things, perhpas for you they are.