Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will be.

was just reading this article.. covering lot of things… few excerpt from it
Link


Midway through my stay in Pakistan, I attended a small dinner party in Islamabad. The guests included a handful of daily-newspaper reporters, a management consultant, and a young female member of parliament from Musharraf’s party. All of them—even the president’s own party loyalist—were openly resentful of the military and its stranglehold on political and economic life. As we sat in a cramped dining room, eating biryanis and drinking tea, the group exchanged stories about military privilege. The consultant had recently returned after five years in the U.S., and he had landed a project at an army-run conglomerate that operates 41 companies and employs 15,000 people. He described his discovery that the corporation’s top jobs, as well as those across many of the 41 companies, all were taken by retired officers with no formal business training and little understanding of basic economics. “Finance was managed by a colonel,” he said. “Administration, risk management, human resources—these were jobs given as perks to retired officers.” After several years of underperformance, the conglomerate had requested a bailout of nearly $100 million from the government. His firm had been hired to turn the business around. Speaking of the armed forces’ role in Pakistan’s economy, he said, “They have the power, and they can do whatever they want.”

The parliamentarian added that the army was steadily helping itself to Islamabad’s best land, often reselling it at a significant profit. The main vehicle for the landgrab, she told me, was the Defense Housing Authority, which purchases properties from private parties, for development and distribution to the officer corps. As a rule, she explained, the market value of the development escalates sharply once the military buys the property, because it is immediately regarded as prestigious and highly secure. “The corps commander gets a kickback from the real-estate developer,” she said, and then “distributes the plots to lower-ranking officers [at government-subsidized prices], and sells what’s left to civilians at a huge profit.”

We turned into a gated community called “Askari 8,” otherwise known as “Military Row.” Our car crept along quiet residential lanes, planted with palm trees and lined with palatial villas of brick and marble. I might have thought we were in an exclusive Southern California suburb, except for the bronze plaques on the front gates identifying the owners: a former corps commander of Rawalpindi, a former vice chief of staff, a retired head of the ISI. Around the corner lay rows of smaller mansions. These belonged to brigadiers, my driver told me, officers one rank down from general.

The army’s encroachment on civilian affairs has not inspired any kinship between the military and civilians, whom many officers view as inferior. A sense of entitlement is inculcated in the officer corps at the Pakistan Military Academy, in Kakul, a former base of the Indian army set among the pine-forested Himalayan foothills of the North-West Frontier Province. It was established shortly after partition in 1947, as a sort of home-grown version of Sandhurst, the British school where many Indian officers received their military education. In a tranquil setting dominated by snowy peaks, cadets culled from a huge pool of applicants spend two and a half years studying governance and political theory; the syllabus spans the canon of Western and Islamic literature and includes ancient Greek philosophers, Middle Eastern poets and historians, even the Indian military strategist Chanakya. Musharraf graduated from the academy in 1964; it is perhaps telling that since he came to power, the academy has begun offering courses in economics and business management.

The cadets spend as much time training their bodies as their minds. The climax of their athletic training is the “Acid Test,” a multi-hour ordeal of running, climbing, and trudging over difficult terrain, while laden with heavy gear. At the finish, those who complete the test fire celebratory rounds at a target, and look up at an inscription that reads “VERILY THE POWER LIES IN FIREPOWER.”
“Once you are through Kakul, you are the elect—you are a breed apart,” says Tanvir Ahmed Khan, a former Pakistani foreign secretary. The military academy, he says, instills in cadets “a sense of pride and a genuine, deep-seated contempt for everyone outside the military.” That contempt, says Khan, is rooted in a belief that civilian governments have proved uniformly inept and corrupt, repeatedly forcing the military to “rescue” the country from the clutches of incompetent civil servants and thieving politicians—a position that is increasingly ironic as the military dips ever deeper into the public trough.
The Pakistani military’s relationship with the United States has been tempestuous. American and Pakistani soldiers began working together in the field in the 1950s, bound by mutual concerns about Soviet expansionism in the region. The relationship cooled after the United States imposed sanctions following Pakistan’s 1965 war with India, but it warmed up again under the military dictatorship of Zia ul-Haq: The U.S. Department of Defense moved more than a thousand Pakistani officers through its International Military Education and Training program, or IMET, giving them months of training alongside American officers at elite American military institutions.

Near the end of my stay in Pakistan, a journalist friend in Islamabad introduced me to an old friend of his: a 35-year-old major in the Pakistani army, who had agreed to talk to me as long as I didn’t use his name or identify his unit. We met in a small, smoky lounge at my friend’s newspaper office. The major, who was wearing civilian clothes—jeans and a wool sweater thrown over a polo shirt—was a stocky, affable man who spoke colloquial English; he seemed relaxed and uninhibited, once I assured him that I’d protect his identity. “Major Khaled,” as I’ll call him, grew up in northern Punjab—the “martial belt” that has traditionally provided the vast majority of soldiers and officers in the army—and he received his training at the Pakistan Military Academy. His career mirrored that of many other ambitious young Pakistani officers, and until recently, he had followed his orders without questioning them: He had participated enthusiastically, for instance, in the 1999 invasion of Kargil. All of that changed after Pakistani troops were deployed in the tribal agencies along the border to put down local insurgents and foreign fighters.

“I’ve met people of all ranks, in the line of fire, and nobody is happy with this way of solving the problem in Waziristan,” he told me. “The terrain is hard. It’s difficult to hold the ground. The insurgents know every inch of the area.” Major Khaled told me he resented the implication, which he felt the U.S. government had fostered, that Pakistan was serving as the main refuge for Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters. “The terrain around Kabul is similar, so why do they say that the only hideouts are in Waziristan?” he said. “Why is Pakistan singled out? Pakistan has suffered a lot. I’ve lost colleagues in ambushes, to time bombs, to improvised explosive devices. The Pakistan army is bleeding for you people.” I asked Khaled if his doubts about the mission had ever caused him to disobey the commands of higher-ups. He shook his head. “I’m not a policy maker. We just have to follow the orders, but people down below don’t go into battle from their hearts.** There could have been other options. This is not our battle. This is your battle, and we’re paying the price.” **

The military’s younger generation has exhibited some of the same unsavory tendencies as Musharraf: an inclination toward authoritarianism, contempt for civilians, indulgence of military corruption, and an unequivocal belief in the military as the country’s savior. It also appears more sympathetic to Islamist causes and more hostile to India than is Musharraf. Pakistani officers in their 30s do not believe that the U.S. wants a long-lasting relationship with Pakistan; they have little camaraderie with U.S. soldiers, and they feel little empathy for U.S. political or diplomatic positions.

Among junior officers, there is some support for relinquishing power. Major Khaled, the young officer I met in Islamabad, told me that back when he joined the army, “we went through villages during military exercises, and people welcomed us and gave us water, assistance. It’s the opposite now. They think I’m a rich guy just because I’m a soldier. I feel the resentment; I see the bad looks. People say we’ve hung around too long.” This widening gap between civilians and military has led to intense questioning among the junior officers, he told me. “A few days back, six of us were discussing the options, and we said, ‘The army can exit and call for a fair and impartial election. Let the exiled leaders come back to Pakistan and install a civilian government. Democracy is the right way.’”

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

disband, no, clean out yes, but first lets have them clean the infestation of weirdo beardo hadd haram mullahs from the country. or maybe cleaning out the military will help in a quicker chitrol of these namoonay

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

The problem is that they don't want to take any action until a wound is bleeding or reported (phone call)... may be a concurrent operation.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

yeah maan, iraq and afghanistan are two countries without armies and look how well they are doing? or we could be like kashmiris and we could invite 500,000 of india's finest to look after us like kashmiris did. another option for us could be to rely on americans who do a great job of looking after couple of other musllim countries without army namely lebanon and palestine.

btw magazines like atlantic always carry articles like the one above about america's enemies. i am glad to see pak being singled out for special treatment.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

The problem is that it is THEIR war now, becuase militants have stolen their land and their people and their resources, and that's not acceptable.

Pakistanis are not going to wake up to the nightmare of this militant version of Islam, which is NO version of Islam, until these *%^$'s march through their city in place of the Pakistani army, taking over their entire world.

Its like Nazi Germany all over again. People seriously prefer to put blinders on instead of recognizing a threat and extinguishing it immediately.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Par yeh to abhi bhi ho raha hai, under military rule.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

I don't think the military is ignoring it anymore. Not now that their assets and conveniences in NWFP are in danger.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

No could have said it better , beautiful.

Only gora type ppl have been scared of mullah type under influence of ccn people.
So
nazi mullah = danger
nazi mush = stability

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

PCG, if they wouldn't we wouldn't be in state of emergency (oops martial law).
Which doesn't mean I would declare all Mullahs and Talebs shaheed after falling in battle against Pak Army.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Thats what we thought was going to happen post Lal Masjid or Lal Masjid 2.0

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Military needs to clean itself first.
we can't ignore the fact that mullah were never really in the power but military.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Brother, if you are really true to what you say, make Allah your witness here on the forum and let us know what in your personal life you are stopped by military rule in Pakistan. For instance … amongst all things I am mentioning below, please let us know what rights you do not have today in Pakistan.

A: You are not allowed to go to Mosque to pray?
B: You are not allowed to fast?
C: You are not allowed to go for Haj?
D: You are not allowed to give Zakat?
E: You are not allowed marry whoever you like?
F: You are not allowed to eat or drink what you like?
G: You are not allowed to sleep at night or walk peacefully by government?
H: You are not allowed to wear dress that you would like to wear that is decently covers you?
I: You are stopped to worship whatever you like?
J: You are not allowed to study even though you can afford that?
K: You are not allowed to take any profession to earn your living peacefully, that is even though you are not interfering or effecting others in your profession (like becoming suicide bomber) government stops you to take up that profession?
L: You are not allowed to develop your personal skill or involve in any games or activities that does not affect life or well being of other citizens?
M: You are not allowed to talk to anyone you like who also wants to talk to you
N: You are not allowed to get burried the way you like?

Or well …

Tell me one thing that you are not allowed to do that you can do peacefully and that does not affect any other citizen of Pakistan from your action.

I am asking, because what I know, there is no restriction in Pakistan on anyone in leading whatever life they would like to live and what I think, there is more freedom in Pakistan regarding personal life of individual that what one can even finds in west.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

^ You are not allowed to speak out against Mush or his emergency rule for a start...

Arresting Imran under terrorism act just makes a mockery of the whole law. Criticising dictatorship or speaking out against unconstitutional steps like emergency is not treason. We all know who is the real culprit here. In Britain for instance any citizen can slam the PM (within reason ofcourse) and the police won't come rushing to your house with warrants etc. and treat you in a rough manner - you know thuda and thappar etc which is how our jaahil police normally operates. The way these basta**s treated Imran - slapping and kicking him and shoving him like cattle in the back of a van, is this how a civilised police force should behave?. The guy is our national hero for god's sake. I am afraid we have become a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. If you agree with the police action then I am sorry you have lost respect in my eyes too. Yes he was protesting against Mush but that is his civil right (whether or not he should have sought the permission of the officials at the university is besides the point). As long as one is not resorting to violence, you cannot just arrest someone because they are speaking out against you.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

parallel path,
clean the military of the mullah scum influence, ganday anday like hamid gul are a proof that there are some real nutjob zealots in the military.

mullahs were never in power in pakistan but they are the ones launching suicide attacks everywhere, these halwa khor weirdo beardos need to be exterminated like teh roaches that they are.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

I think the extremists are being fought what with all the fighting going on in Wazirstan.

I just think that the Pakistani army from the conception of pakistan, hasn't had real control over NWFP and its terrain. Its tough terrain in some areas, and the tribal elders have better control over the people than the government. These people, I don't think, wanted the government to interfere too much - they wanted to be left the way they were. That has created this vacuum that allows any foreigner to travel up there and make their arrangements with tribal leaders and do what they need to do. Given that the tribal leaders aren't too well versed themselves on Islam, and to them, Islam is nothing more than a code of gender diffrentiation and praying 5 times a day, they don't question when the terrorists come in. Its not surprising that the extremists have taken over so easily - it was the perfect logistical spot to translocate to when the US went into Afghanistan, and I don't think anyone in Pakistan could have seen that coming some years ago.

Nevertheless, I disagree with you - I think there is sufficient evidence that military operations have been taking place for some time now and that's precisely what Imran Khan has been jumping up and down about

which leads me to say once again:

If the gov't attacks the extremists, Pakistanis don't like it.

If the gov't doesn't attack the extremists, Pakistanis don't like it.

Pple pple....need to make up your minds!

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Just read this article on bbc urdu… will try to translate one of the para in english…

Those who can read urdu can read it themselves.


Dear General sb, you said it right that country is falling/sinking and its soverignity is at stake. Thats why it will be very good if you leave it on its own. You are not the only one who have been given this responsibility neither you should take it. If destruction is written in its fate, as you are saying, then let it get destroyed. but for the sake of the Allah don’t FORCE one Pakistani behead another Pakistani. Don’t make policeman fire on the civillians and disrespect the court and the justice. Don’t push one group to fight another group just to give longevity to your own duration of rule.

I would say he has written very mildly…
i would say **…**all these generals and commanders and brigadiers who have not spilled a single drop of blood in the creation of Pakistan. Who have not given a single ounce of effort for the betterment of the “PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN”… who have given not a penny of sacrifice for the land they proclaim to defend… We the civilians of Pakistan gave more than what we could afford to this army and now the time has come to have an accountability of them. Have a civilian person to manage the army and
..

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Indeed a very good article.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

I will join such teams when you start counting the siysatdaan bradri as worse if not worst.

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Hehe! I hope Cheetah that you are joking.
You have mentioned 2 parties, Army generals, civilians and 3rd party which comes to mind but u didn’t mention is politicians of today.
If the army officers of today dodnt spill one drop of blood, how many pints did Benzair, Nawaz, Altaf, Qazi, Imran, etc spill for *creation *of Pakistan?
If Army has not given single ounce for bettering Pakistan, how many pounds have siyasatdaans given?
And what exactly have civilians done? What have you and I done?

Secondly I dont think its nice to talk about disbanding your national army…no matter how many bad points there may be. We all know wher we stand if we dont have the Army and its jawans.
Rebel X is right that the bad eggs should be thrashed, they are present everywhere, it doesnt mean all should be grinded…

Re: Do we really deserve this Army..? the sooner we disband them, better off we will

Pakistan was not created through the spilling of blood. None of our founding fathers suffered to create Pakistan. The All-India Muslim League worked with, co-operated with, and negotiated with the British to secure Pakistan's creation and independence.

Pakistan was made through peace and words - something that we can all be proud of. Spilling blood to gain independence is the mark of lesser peoples and lessser nations than us.

Xcom_cheetah, people like you who think spilling blood is a good thing do not deserve Pakistan - you are not a heir to the traditions of Jinnah and the All-India Muslim League that founded Pakistan without a drop of blood.