Lately Malaysian Prime Minster urged Muslims to “modernize their faith”. It is indeed a bold statement as Muslims are very sensitive to this topic.I personally believe that his statement needs some further discussion.
First, here is how i will define the “modernization of our faith” . In my opinion, we Muslims are in desperate need of an Islamic reformation that sweeps away the crazed conservatism and backwardness of the fundamentalists. As a matter of fact, we need to open the world of islam to new ideas which are seen to be more advanced than what is currently on offer from so called “pseudo-intelligent” western philosophers.
Second, now let me be more precise. I think it is the time that we need a rigid separation of state and mosque and the dissolution of clergy. i certainly do not agree with Muslim scholar’s assertion of their right to interrupt the texts and “concepts” that are collective property of Islamic culture as whole. We muslims do not want to be labeled “mushrak” or " kafir" by so called scholars every time we come up with some new ideas. we do not want to end up like a pool of stagnant water which smells horrible but we want to be a free-flowing stream. we Muslims need freedom to think freely and more importantly rationally. we need the freedom of imagination.
Unless we move in this direction, we will be doomed to re-living old battles and thinking not of richer future but of how we can move from present to past. In my opinion it is an unacceptable vision.
( i have decided to open this thread at WA forum as the topic under discussion has a deep connection with the political future of muslims. I did not want this topic to be discussed from a pure religous stand point. Therefore, i would like guppies at WA forum to discuss this topic from a broader spectrum keeping in view today’s muslims poor position across the globe. Thanks)
if the agenda is to appease western masters, then no.
if the agenda is to re-introduce reinterpretation and stop the cognitive dissonance from outdated rulings and modern evolved human truths, then Im all for it.
If we were to follow the mold of seperation between church and state which model would you wish to follow? American? French? German? Italian? Spainish? We could always follow the Indonesian model but that would cause a whole set of problems.
Of course this concept of the "freedom of thinking". Who exactly is a hinderance to your own thought process? From what I know a majority dont care what a scholar says nor does. The islamic world doesnt govern itself by the teachings of any presently living or dead scholar. Rather the islamic world governs itself on taking bits and parts of they deem acceptable out of islam or what is to their benefit and employs that.
I would also remind the readers/posters in general, that the reformation was not against religion itself but rather the power of the church. The gross violations of their own laws and ideals created the reformation. Forgiveness of sins that can be bought by cash. Clergy having business and political acumen. The church being defacto the government.
That is the not the cause of the Islamic world. Rather just the opposite, the islamists tend the most poor and needy out of all of us.
Are they talking about technology no problem islam encourages science and technology.
Are they calling for better economics fine islam has comprehensive economic system.
Are they calling for more transparent government fine Islam has a unique ruling system where even the leader of the state can be accounted for his actions.
What exactly are they calling for modernisation is it in reality another weak call by the dying breed of extreme secularists who will do anything to keep there grips on power!
the fact of the matter is that due to the lack of a united islamic state is the reason muslims are suffering from hardships because there is no state to propogate its values or defend its honour!
Re: Do we muslims need to modernize our thoughts and faith? An open debate
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*Originally posted by phoenixdesi: *
1. ...we Muslims are in desperate need of an Islamic reformation that sweeps away the crazed conservatism and backwardness .....
.... we need a rigid separation of state and mosque and the dissolution of clergy. .....
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These two are purely Western ideas. There is no "We Muslims". Every country regardless of religion has to strive for a better business environment.
For such an environment in Pakistan we need:
Liberal school system (No Mullah-cracy in education)
Conservative economic system (low tax rate, few government restrictions).
Anyone harming these two should be sent to lockup. That will pretty much take care of Mullay-Aya-Tullah cabal and other commie-leftie anarchists.
Pakistan desperately needs to improve its business environment, and maintain economic progress for at least 20 years. Until the year 2025 it should pretty much leave Araabs to their whims.
Re: Do we muslims need to modernize our thoughts and faith? An open debate
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*Originally posted by phoenixdesi: *
I think it is the time that we need a rigid separation of state and mosque
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If you can prove, from the Quran and Hadith, that the spheres of state and religion should not overlap, then all is very well and good.
If, on the other hand, the Quran and Hadith indicate that God commands us that state and religion are as one, are you suggesting that Muslims should disobey God?
It is very, very, very rare when I quote Benazir Bhutto, but as she oce said in an interview, it is not Islam that needs to be reformed, but rather it is Muslim societies that need to reform themselves.
I would also remind the readers/posters in general, that the reformation was not against religion itself but rather the power of the church. The gross violations of their own laws and **ideals* created the reformation. Forgiveness of sins that can be bought by cash. Clergy having business and political acumen. The church being defacto the government.
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CM is exactly right.
I am probobly wrong to comment on this thread about reforming Islam..as I am not a muslim. Anything I write is flame territory.
History teaches us that the near theocracy practised before reformation was fertile ground for corruption.
Many call for an Islamic State. But how could that be accomplished with such variance and sometimes animosity between various schools of Islam? The Sunni, the Shihite, and Wahabi?
IMHO greater unity would come from a secular Middle East Union with a consitution based on Q'ranic ideals...open and tolerate of all the various schools of Islam.
The Ayatolahs and great personalities of Islam held in high esteem by their followers. Not in political power but having political influence....
The Pope has some political influence...yet one is not required to abide by his opinions on secular matters..and if one is not catholic...not required to follow the religious rulings
Those faithful to the church doctrine and teachings will normally follow the Popes leadership and decree's.
I imagine that those faithful to their school of Islam will heed the teachings of their Grand Ayatolloh...whether or not those teachings are written into law of the state.
Teachings in Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity are near about very similar. (I do not talk of idolatry or one god ship conflict). But in practice Islam absolutely differs from other religions.
I find reasons in Madrisa setup for minors.
You want a change? Islam does not need any reforms.
Just stop sending your minors to Madrisa and Islam will be able to take a non-violent shape.
“There is no God other than Allah”, “Whoever rejects our Ayats are deaf and dumb”, have a little patience and think what you are pouring into your minors’ minds?
More or less all religions have same norms and principals, but they lack a training system for minors.
Islam does not need reforms. The Islamic setup needs reforms very badly, not just reforms but an entire change.
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*Originally posted by anjjan: *
Teachings in Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity are near about very similar. (I do not talk of idolatry or one god ship conflict). But in practice Islam absolutely differs from other religions.
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That is incorrect statement ISlam, Hinduism, Xstianity, and Judiasm are not similar in in there teachings.
Islam has a spirtitual and politcal aqeedah
Hinduism, Xstianity and Judaism only have spirtitual aqeedahs.
I am not sure about this, Amerikka claims to be Xstian country but its political aqeedah is based on capitalism not Xstianity.
Again i don't agree with this term ISlam is same as Xstianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc.
Yes they had same prophets in regards to spirtual aspect but in terms of implementation in society they are very different like i mentioned before Islam has a comprehensive political aqeedah i.e it has an economic system, a ruling system, Judical System, Foriegn Policy, Government Structure etc.
the other beliefs are just spirtual they do not contain anything that resembles a political aqeedah.
Even in recent years example the Indians had the BJP in power based on Hindu emotions reaching for the Hindu vote based on there spirtual belief but when in power there politcal policies where Capitalist in there entire outlook nothing to do with or based on hindusim at all.
I repeat that (except Buddhism) all other religions Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism have same teachings.
This is a misunderstanding that only Islam has Jihad, a Holy war, or only Islam talks for a lawful revenge.
All religions allow the same and all religions give the same reward of heaven to whoever dies in a Holy war while killing the enemies.
But only Muslims have adopted and practice these religious dogmas in daily life.
Can we find the reason?
Islam differs only in setup, that is Madrisa system for minors.
“There is no God other than Allah’, whoever reject the ayats are deaf and dumb’, this lesson a Muslim child gets at the age of 4 or 5.
They temper with the child psychology at Madrisa. If all religions had a Madrisa system for minors this world might have become a complete hell for all.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by anjjan: *
Teachings in Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity are near about very similar. (I do not talk of idolatry or one god ship conflict). But in practice Islam absolutely differs from other religions.
I find reasons in Madrisa setup for minors.
You want a change? Islam does not need any reforms.
Just stop sending your minors to Madrisa and Islam will be able to take a non-violent shape.
“There is no God other than Allah”, “Whoever rejects our Ayats are deaf and dumb”, have a little patience and think what you are pouring into your minors’ minds?
More or less all religions have same norms and principals, but they lack a training system for minors.
Islam does not need reforms. The Islamic setup needs reforms very badly, not just reforms but an entire change.
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*Originally posted by ak47:
The romans had politcal Xstianity?
I am not sure about this, Amerikka claims to be Xstian country but its political aqeedah is based on capitalism not Xstianity.
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America is secular country ak47. If asked about religious affiliation..
Majority follow some type of Christianity....is reason for U.S. being defined as Christian country.
U.S. = Christian does not hold the impact and importance to people of the U.S. that ...
for example
Iran = Muslim does to the peoples of Iran.
Hope you get my gist...Having hard time finding right words to express my thinking.
America is secular country ak47. If asked about religious affiliation..
Majority follow some type of Christianity....is reason for U.S. being defined as Christian country.
U.S. = Christian does not hold the impact and importance to people of the U.S. that ...
for example
Iran = Muslim does to the peoples of Iran.
Hope you get my gist...Having hard time finding right words to express my thinking.
Political Xstianity as a concept of state? NO.
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I dont think your example answers my point. but your example of Iran is similar to US.
Because Iran claims to be Islamic but if you look at constitution and laws they are based on French Republican system although some aspects of the judical system have some aspects of islamic laws but this is very small.
And if you look at Iran today many people reblling against the rulers because they implement a bad secular system there and not satisfying the peoples needs.
Yes most poeple affiliate themselves to Xstianity as there spirtual belief in Amerikka.
But the reason the US does not implement a Xstain political system is because there is none in existence Xstanity does not have a political system.
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
Modernise what?
.............
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Sometimes even Kalashnikov (a weapon of choice for terrorists) can make sense. Yes Pakistan doesn’t need to modernize Islam.
Who would even want to modernize Mullahs, bunch of furry hairballs?
Nah!
Let them keep their Shalwars high and Topees low and enjoy their miswaaks and hujras.
If they don’t want, why then the rest of Pak society has to drag them kicking and screaming and force pant-shirt regime on them?
OTOH, if educated Pakistanis want to wear pant-shirt, they don’t need an approval letter from the hairballs.
If an educated Pakistani wants to overhaul the oppressive commie leftie tax system, hairballs won't be of much help.
If educated Pakistanis want to enjoy fine arts, they simply need to get rid of Jamati terrorists.
If educated Pakistanis have to stop cold blooded murder of Shias, Ahmadis, Christians, and Sunnis, they would simply needs to lockup all those AK47s ;)