Do Salafis take literal meaning of the Quran?

:salam: Brother AllahkaBanda

JazakAllah khair for clarifying. From your reply it is clearer (mind the pun) that the two 'aqaid can reach better reconciliation.

If it is just a matter of Dhahir then in every sense the Sufis can argue this. If ta’wil as you say is the veering away from the obvious meaning i.e. a convoluted meaning or a sophistic argument then I don’t believe either interpretations are this. I believe the majazi and the maadi in many of the verses of the Qur’an are equally obvious.

At least the maadi meanings are obvious to the Atharis moreso and the majazi meanings are obvious to the 'Asharis moreso. Can we agree on this?

As-Salamu 'Alyakum brother

1) Athari Creed: this is the creed of Ahlus Sunnah; it is it affirm and believebelieve in what Allah Ta'ala has said about Himself in the Qur'aan, what His Prophet, Muhammad (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam), said about Him and how the Salaf (May Allah be pleased with them - first three generations of Muslims) understood His Sifaat without taw'il (interpreting their meanings into different), tashbih (giving resemblance or similarity in any specific creatures), ta'til (completely ignoring or denying them), tafweed (tawfid - to relegate the meanings) and takeef (takif - asking how). Hence, Ahlus Sunnah affirm that Allah Ta'ala has Two Hands, Two Eyes, He descends to the lowest heaven every 3rd of the night, He will come down with angels on the day of judgment, He rose over His throne, He is above the heavens over His throne, the Qur'an that we've today is the Kalam (Speech) of Allah Ta'ala and it is not created etc.

2) Ash'aris and Maturidis: they are the groups of kalam (philosophy) both of them emerged in the 4th centruy of Islam. Both of the groups are named after, Abu'l-Hasan Ash'ari and Abu Nasir Maturidi, who are their Imams. They dwell into philosophy to refute Mu'tazilite. They only believe in the seven Sifaat of Allah Ta'ala and make ta'weel of rest of His Sifaat. Their basis of 'aqeedah (creed) is not Islam but philosophy.


The Salaf are the pious Muslims/scholars from the first three Muslim generations: Shabah, the Tabi'een, the Taba Tabi'een (may Allah be pleased with them). So "saying of the Salafs" refers to their understanding of the Qur'an and statements.

@psyah
Wa'alaykum As-Salam brother

Barak Allahu feeka

Even though the dhahir of the ayaat of the Qur'an is obvious but you see they don't agree to it. As I said before, the majzi and madi terms in way confuse lots of people, this is why it is better to stick to the term dhahir. The dhahri majzi and dhahri madi both are clear to Ahlus Sunnah but not to Ash'aris. Both of the groups have contradictory believes and hence reconciliation between the two groups is impossible. Their basis of belief is nothing but philosophy whereas we've the Qur'an, the Saheeh Sunnah and the athar of the Salaf to support us. I hope you learned this from my response to Shaykh Nuh Keller's article.

Wallahu A'lam

AllahKaBanda what you are mentioning here are commonly held beliefs of Ahl-e-Hadees, not Ahl-e-Sunnat. Are you saying that Ahl-e-hadees and Ahl-e-sunnat are one and the same?

Re: Do Salafis take literal meaning of the Quran?

@ALLAHKABANDA you are jumping through too many hoops to prove your point. Don't confuse people by calling yourself Ahl-e-sunnah since you are propagating Ahl-e-Hadees views.


brother, please define me the people of Ahlus Sunnah and people of Ahl al-Hadeeth. When I say Ahlus Sunnah, my definition is not Pak/Ind definition and nor I associate myself to Paki Ahl-e-hadeeth. Both of the group in Pak/Ind do not follow the people of Sunnah and nor they follow the people of Hadeeth.


maybe you should prove this point brother, inseatd of accusing me randomly. Why do your posts only have some kind of accusation against me and Ahlus Sunnah and you provide no evidence? Why do you run away from my simple questions? Please brother, I remind you of fearing Allah Ta'ala and don't accuse your fellow brother in Islam without any evidence. Let me ask you this,** were the Salaf paki Ahl-e-Hadeeth who affirmed the Sifaat of Allah upon their dhahir meaning? **

If your defination of Ahl-e-sunnat is not pak/indian defination then what is your defination of Ahl-e-Sunnat, please enlighten me.

Since you asked my definations I will tell you what I have observed:

The people of Ahl-e-sunnat are those who follow the Quran, Sunnat of Prophet Mohammad, and its interpretation by four Rightly Guided Khalifahs.

The people of Ahl-e-Hadees, follow the sunnat of Umayyads and call them their aslaafs, such as the son of Abu Sufyan, muaviyah. Am I Incorrect?

I have nothing against Ahl-e-Sunnah and I haven't run away from any of your questions. The way you describe stuff and make arguments, you sound like a contortionist.

You are accusing 400 muslims of sub continent of not following sunnah or hadeeth.

All I know is that when you talk about following Salaf etc, i always remember surah muafaqoon.

Re: Do Salafis take literal meaning of the Quran?

literalism is the main problem of the salafi/wahabi/ahle hadith
their imam ibne tamiyya said regarding the hadith that allah made adam according to his shape that
"any one who said that allah doesnot have hands, eyes and human face is a kafir"
i think it is very joyable for mullahs to declare any muslim as kafir.
they cannot make any one muslim by dawah so they just make muslims kafir.
those scholars who give dawah to nonmuslims never give fatwas of takfir.........

I dont think any salafi /ahle hadith scholar ever says that follwoing the examples of ummayyad kings is sunnat like that of pious caliphs

why ? all salaf were not perfect in anyway
but why do u remember only the bad ones ...salaf built the foundation of a islamic society that is the grts achievement of the Prophet

The whole salafi/wahabi/deobandi/ahl-e-hadeeth ideology is unfortunately based on the bad ones.

Quran talks about the "people of the house" and the covenant with Ibrahim (AS) for divinely ordained leadership in his family.

Why do they point fingers (and swords and guns) to the believers who chose to follow what Allah has stated?

Please show the reference in Quran about Salaf, or Tabaeen or Taba'Tabaeen?

Re: Do Salafis take literal meaning of the Quran?

^ u make it sound very simplistic
there are many sunnis who claim that THEY follow ahle baith not neccesarily the same way that 12ers do

Listen ordinary Sunnis follow and respect Ahl-e-Bayt, maybe not to the same extent as Shias do but still.

Its only due to the extremism of the new Salafi/Wahabi ideology which is becoming mainstream that people are getting weird and extra sensitive.

Re: Do Salafis take literal meaning of the Quran?

[quote]
Listen ordinary Sunnis follow and respect Ahl-e-Bayt, maybe not to the same extent as Shias do but still.

Its only due to the extremism of the new Salafi/Wahabi ideology which is becoming mainstream that people are getting weird and extra sensitive
[/quote]
.

actually the salafis see the shias as devients and vice versa
both claim to follow ahlul bayt [in addition to sahaba incase of salafis]

problem is that some nawasib have infiltrated the ranks of ahle sunnah and under the guise of "refuting shias" are going against many long-held beliefs of sunnis/salafis ...these people are NOT ahle hadith or salafis despite their claims

Ok then give me a summary of Salafi beliefs which you think is accurate.

As-Salamu 'Alaykum


already defined this 10 times already brother; Ahlus Sunnah are those who follow the Qur'an, the Saheeh Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf (Sahabah, Tabi'een, Taba Tabi'een)


true but interpretation is not only limited to the four Shaykhaeen (radiallahu anhuma) but also includes the righteous scholars of the first 3 generations and those who followed them afterwards. However, the four Shaykhaeen are at the top after the Messenger of Allah (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam).


completely incorrect. The people of hadith are those who cling to the ahadeeth and relay more on ahadeeth than the opinions.


you haven't even answered my one question. Show me the post where you answered my one question!


first, don't put words in my mouth. I said those who claim to among the Ahlus Sunnah are not really Ahlus Sunnah because they reject the Sifat of Allah Ta'ala, commit shirk (extreme sufis) etc, which I've demonstrated throughout in this thread. The Paki ahl-e-hadeeth don't follow the foot steps of Ahl al-Hadeeth as Ahl al-Hadeeth were on the middle path and not being extreme.


I'm sorry for the harsh tone here but good for you. It is better not to stick your nose in a discussion when your intention is not seeking the truth and simply accusing people which you can't prove or provide any shred of an evidence.


this is nonsense at its best, you didn't read a single post and smoking nonsense and lies. I'm sorry for the harsh tone but this is not the way to discuss; I challenge you to prove that Shaykh ul-Islam (rahimahullah) said:"any one who said that allah doesnot have hands, eyes and human face is a kafir"


another accusation and what is your evidence for this? so according to you 'Ali (radiallahu anho) was a bad Salaf?


so you're a raafidha, not surprised. Not only you know nothing about what we believe, you also accuse people without any evidence. Is this what your "Imams" have taught you?


that's because the raafidha commit shirk, distort the teachings of Allah Ta'ala and fight against Ahlus Shunnah. They mock and insult the mothers of Muslims and Sahabah.

Unlike raafidha, the Ahlus Sunnah love Ahl al-Bayat and all of the other Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all).


further discussion with you on this topic is wasting time.

a due response

As-Salamu ‘Alaykum brother

:bism:

Brother, like I mentioned before, you’re attacking us with straw man; I have repeated myself like 10 times already that we understand the Qur’an and Sunnah according to the understanding of the Salaf and their understanding is to take the ayaat upon their dhahir (apparent) meaning, which comes to the mind first. This hadith is self explanatory, “He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not?”. You see, the dhahir of the ayah doesn’t say that Allah Ta’ala became sick (‘aoudbillah), the dhahir of the ayah tells us that one of His servants became sick. Hence, the hadeeth doesn’t even need any interpretation (ta’weel). Funny thing is that the servant of Allah Ta’ala understood the dhahir meaning and that’s why he questioned His Lord but for some reason you didn’t!

so you want to us to believe that Allah Ta’ala is a brainless thing (‘auodbillah) – the position of Jahmiyyah, who were declared as kafir by the Salaf? You can play with the words all you want but it doesn’t matter because the people of knowledge don’t agree with you;

The Imam and Shaykh of Mufasreen, ibn Jarir al-Tabari (rahimahullah) said: As for those who claimed that Allah’s saying: “Allah mocks them”, is only (an allegorical reference to God’s) response (to their mockery), and that Allah never mocked, nor plotted, nor deceived,** then they are negating what Allah ‘Azza wa-Jall has affirmed and necessitated for Himself.** This is regardless of whether one says: Allah never mocked, or plotted against, or deceived anyone whom He informed us that He mocks them, ridicules them, plots against them; or says that Allah never caused the earth to swallow the nations which He informed us He did, or that Allah never caused anyone to drown whom He informed us that He did. It is said to the one espousing this belief: Allah informed us that He plotted against a people of the past before us, even though we didn’t see them; as He informed us of others that He caused the earth to swallow them; just as He informed us of others that He caused them to drown. Hence, we believe Allah Ta’ala in what He has mentioned in that regards, without differentiating between anything. What then is your proof for differentiating between the two by claiming that He drowned and caused the earth to swallow those whom He informed us that He did, yet, He did not plot against those whom He informed us that He plotted against? [ibn Jarir’s tafsir: 1/165]
Also, read tafsir ibn kathir in which Imam (rahimahullah) confirms this while quoting the Salaf: The Meaning of “Mocking”

brother, it is not our fault that you’re not acting smart, exaggerating and ignoring the dhahir meaning of these ayaat. I’ve already explained this above! The dhahir of the word “forget” is not erasing something from memory, it means abandoning and this is how the Salaf interpreted it. Similarly, the dhahir of the word “remember” is not that we forget about Allah Ta’ala, it means when we remember our duties towards Him, likewise, He too will remember us. This is not ta’weel; it is understanding the ayah upon its dhahir meaning!

again, the dhahir of the ayah is not that Allah Ta’ala needs our help! Please read the context of the ayah 47:7 to understand the dhahir. Only the heretics can believe that the dhahir of the ayah is that Allah Ta’ala is in need of our help (‘aoudbillah).

so according to you Allah Ta’ala doesn’t hate? If Allah Ta’ala doesn’t Hate, then why does He punish the disbelievers? Allah Ta’ala’s Attribute of Hate is well known and thank you for misquoting the ayaat and ignoring the dhahir. Please read it carefully, Allah says in the Qur’an:
Verily, the worst of living creatures with Allah are the deaf and the dump, who understand not [Surah Anfal:22]; The ayah is talking about the disbelievers who reject Him, not those who are naturally disabled to understand! The Shar’eeh ruling is clear about natrually disabled people!

And whoever is blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and more astray from the Path [Surah Al-Isra’:72]; the dhahir and the context of the ayah tells us that it is referring to the disbelievers because they’re blind in the sight of the believers and Allah Ta’ala as they reject His ayaat!
Rest of your post is full of same mistakes and gibberish interpretations but I’ll respond them anyway…continuing

Numb, You find what Hareem said funny ?

I think she has done marvelous job defending the faith of majority in this thread...

Thank you sister Hareem... May Allah bless you

continuing...


brother, I ask you to fear Allah Ta’ala and stop mocking and distorting the ayaat. Why do you deny what Allah Ta’ala has said about Himself? Why do you ask why He does things the way He does? This is asking “how” and it is forbidden in Islam! Why don’t you tell me what do the term “both My Hands” mean? Why do you keep running away from this question?


I’ve already explained this, refer to my response to sister hareem


where does this ayah say that Allah Ta’ala supposedly used His entire “body”? And by the way it is kufr to affirm a body for Allah Ta’ala! Are you so blinded by hatred that you don’t even read what the ayah actually say?!


again, the dhahir of the ayah is not your misunderstanding! Where does it say that it is difficult? Does “greater” mean “difficult” in your dictionary?


The “supposedly” ta’weel has been already explained and indeed nothing is difficult for Allah Ta’ala and we don’t deny any of His ayaat unlike you people!


we affirm the dhahir meaning of the ayah; the dhahir meaning that Allah Ta’ala has not et tested them and this is not ta’weel.


This is the belief of the qadriyyah not Ahlus Sunnah. When did deobandis become salafi? Did you even read or did some search before copying pasting this whole thing? Or were you two blinded by hatred?


whoever wrote this is a complete jahil; O jahil, ponder upon the dhahir of the ayah!


again, the jahliyyat at its best. Where does the ayah say that dead Prophets (‘alayhi as-salam) will come to aid to the Messenger of Allah Ta’ala (sal-allahu ‘alayhi wa salam)? Allah Ta’ala here is referring to the books and the previous teachings of the previous Prophets, which He revealed to them, this is the dhahir of the ayah!


read the ayah carefully, the ayah is talking about Allah Ta’ala helping those who believe in the test of this life and consequences in hereafter.

1) It is kufr to utter a statement that rest of Allah Ta’ala will perish (‘aoudbillah) except His Face.

2) It is kufr to say that Allah Ta’ala has body or limbs etc

3) It is lie against the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah that they make takfeer of those who make ta’weel. They only relay what the Salaf said!

4) The Salaf and scholars of Ahlus Sunnah affirm a Face for Allah Ta’ala from other ayaat and saheeh ahadeeth. The difference among the Salaf scholars is not whether Allah Ta’ala has Face or not, the difference is over the implied meaning of the term “Face” in this ayah. Some of them said it refers “except Him” as reported from Imam ad-Dahhak and Abu ‘Ubaydah (may Allah be pleased with them), some said it refers to “except what He wants” as reported from Imam Mujahid, Sufiyan ath-Thawri and Imam al-Bukhari (radiallahu anhuma). All of these meanings are accepted and as the pople of knowledge understood that Allah Ta’ala expressed Himself by using one of His attributes. However, this is not ta’weel as affirming the dhahir meaning is not ta’weel.


brother what you copied by this jahil writer is only misunderstanding and distortion of the statement of Imam al-Bukhari and Shaykh al-Bani (may Allah have mercy on them). Shaykh al-Bani (rahimahullah) and others were not hiding anything or lying when they said Imam al-Bukhari (rahimahullah) didn’t make ta’weel of this ayah because he didn’t as understanding an ayah upon its dhahir meaning isn’t ta’weel. Imam al-Bukhari (rahimahullah) recorded saheeh ahaheeth affirming a Face for Allah Ta’ala, which befits Him!

Wallahu A'lam

allhamdulillah, with this I've answered all of the attacks against the 'aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah. The sound mind readers, who're seeking truth, can read my posts and decide themselves.


well, she tried defending the undefendable and have yet to response to my questions or posts refuting her claims. I don't see how does this prove that she defended "faith of majority". Mind you, the faith of majority is not what the Ash'ariyyah have been telling their blind followers.