Do France & Germany have a plan to avert Iraq war? (merged)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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"It’s about whether we do have a threat coming from Iraq or not - absent such threat, I believe the war is unjustified.‘’

France, Russia, China Lobby Against War](Latest news from around the world | The Guardian) Guardian

Saturday February 8, 2003 10:40 AM

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - France, Russia and China have launched a diplomatic counteroffensive against the United States and Britain, opposing a rush to war and insisting that U.N. weapons inspectors be given a chance to disarm Iraq peacefully. While U.S. and British diplomats considered options for a new U.N. resolution authorizing military action against Iraq, the three other veto-wielding members of the Security Council demanded that inspections be given more time.

The leaders of France and China reiterated that point in phone calls to President Bush Friday, and Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said his country saw no reason to go to war with Iraq now. Russia’s U.N. Ambassador Sergey Lavrov added later Friday: ``It’s about whether we do have a threat coming from Iraq or not - absent such threat, I believe the war is unjustified.‘’

President Bush’s declaration this week that ``the game is over’’ for Iraq galvanized the three countries, which believe Iraq can still cooperate with inspectors and avoid war. The Russians, French, and Chinese hope that this weekend’s visit to Baghdad by top U.N. inspectors Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei will produce far greater cooperation from Iraq. Blix and ElBaradei arrived in Baghdad on Saturday morning.

We don't disagree ... on the goal: It's disarmament,'' France's U.N. Ambassador Jean-David Levitte said Friday on PBS' NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.‘’ ``We disagree on one issue, one issue only: what is the timing to decide to move from the inspections to the use of force.‘’ France believes that the main threat to the country and to Europe today is from al-Qaida terrorists, not Saddam.

Much will depend on the report of the inspectors on Feb. 14,'' Levitte said. If they come back with some progress, we’ll say, hey, let’s continue, let’s reinforce the inspections, let’s have more inspectors. … If on the contrary, they were to come back with a very negative report, then a new situation would appear.‘’

Levitte said 10 or 11 of the 15 Security Council members favor continued inspections. Britain and the United States maintain there is no time left. It is a question of timing as to when you reach that point of last resort,'' Britain's U.N. Ambassador Jeremy Greenstock said on the same PBS program. We’ve reached it. … It’s 600 weeks since we started the business of asking Iraq to disarm. And now it’s time to cut the knot and take action.‘’

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Good for them. Someone needs to shut Bush up and stop this war.

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France, China reject U.S. push toward Iraq war They want U.N. inspections to continue](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/08/MN163614.DTL) San Francisco Chronicle 08 Feb 03

Washington – The leaders of France and China rebuffed efforts by President Bush on Friday to line up support for the use of force against Iraq within the next month or two. Their continuing resistance made clear the difficulty the White House faces in its attempt to win explicit new authorization from the U.N. Security Council for military action. A day after he said he was open to pursuing a new U.N. resolution, Bush said that the council would have to decide soon and that he was confident it would uphold “to the fullest” its previous demands that Saddam Hussein’s government disarm.

But after phone conversations with Bush on Friday, President Jacques Chirac of France and President Jiang Zemin of China both signaled that they wanted U. N. weapons inspections to continue for some time before they would support war. The French ambassador to the United States, Jean-David Levitte, told reporters here that by his nation’s count, there were 10 or 11 Security Council members in favor of giving the inspectors more time

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This is almost too good to be true!

1) The French and Germans take over the no-fly zones and extend it across the whole country.

2) The French and Germans, oh what the heck, let's include the Belgians and the Russians, take over all military duties, including a deterrent force, to force Iraq to comply.

3) The French and Germans provide the additional inspectors to inspect Iraq, should be easy, they sold them most of the stuff.

4) The French and Germans provide 7to8 thousand troops in Iraq as blue helmets to in essense establish a defacto government. Of course Saddam will agree to this!

I say, OK!

Germany needs something to do with all of it's government excess, after all they have 11% unemployment and I am sure they can bear the burden. The French economy is no great shakes either. The sheer financial burden of this will probably bring down the Euro. Countries start bailing out of the Euro, not wanting to wait for the French and German economic collapse, and they start buying the dollar. The US stock market goes way up now that the burden and responsibility for Iraq has shifted to the Franco/Germans, and Europe is plunged into depression. We go play with China, Japan, and the "New Europe", and wait for the collapse of Quasi socialism.

The more I think about this, the more I like it!

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How about all other foriegn militaries get out of Iraq and send in some UN blue helmets and inspectors to keep Saddam in line?

Sounds like a plan to me. Certianly better than wasting lives.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
How about all other foriegn militaries get out of Iraq and send in some UN blue helmets and inspectors to keep Saddam in line?

Sounds like a plan to me. Certianly better than wasting lives.
[/QUOTE]

You should go and fight the N. Koreans... Or is that tooooooo much for you....

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Germany needs something to do with all of it's government excess, after all they have 11% unemployment and I am sure they can bear the burden. The French economy is no great shakes either. The sheer financial burden of this will probably bring down the Euro. Countries start bailing out of the Euro, not wanting to wait for the French and German economic collapse, and they start buying the dollar. The US stock market goes way up now that the burden and responsibility for Iraq has shifted to the Franco/Germans, and Europe is plunged into depression. We go play with China, Japan, and the "New Europe", and wait for the collapse of Quasi socialism.

The more I think about this, the more I like it!
[/QUOTE]

and u think the unemployment and economy in the US is any better??

As for the Euro it reigns stronger than the dollar, having gained in double digits over a very short period of time.. .. if we're just guessing aloud, OPEC may start buying Euros or worse still change their oil currency... sending the dollar in a free-fall.

IN addition to controlling large oil reserves and diverting water to Israel, keeping the oil currency as dollars is one of the reasons for this war.

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Does France-Germany Have a Plan too Avert Iraq War?

A plan supposedly in existence would send thousands of UN inspectors into Iraq in an effort to avoid war. Some U.S. officials have denounced the plan as being to late to little and there is now the question on if the plan really exits and whether or not France & Germany will actually bring it to the UN.

This effort by France and Germany is a good one and will hopefully be brought forward. It should not be denounced until all details are known and then only if it is a flawed plan.

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1429_W_775570,00.html

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Are these countries serious in their efforts to prevent war or are they just protecting their oil interests in Iraq.

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Re: Does France-Germany Have a Plan too Avert Iraq War?

I agree. The supremacy of the United Nations must be asserted, and war must be avoided at ALL costs, and if the Franco-German-Russian plan can achieve that then it must be studied carefully by the UN.

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Re: Re: Does France-Germany Have a Plan too Avert Iraq War?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
I agree. The supremacy of the United Nations must be asserted, and war must be avoided at ALL costs, and if the Franco-German-Russian plan can achieve that then it must be studied carefully by the UN.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed with you malik, the United Nations must be allowed to carry out its duties of safeguarding world peace. I think its very important that the French, Germans and Russians are now allowed to implement this peace plan.

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Russia Backs France, Germany on Iraq](CNSNews) CNS News 10 Feb 03

Paris (CNSNews.com) - French President Jacques Chirac and Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday announced, along with Germany, that Iraq’s disarmament should continue within the framework of the United Nations and through reinforced weapons inspections.

Reading from a prepared statement, Chirac said the three countries agreed on the common international goal to quickly rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, but "the use of force could only be a last recourse.
“Russia, Germany and France are in favor of continuing inspections and of substantially strengthening their human and technical capacity by all means,” said Chirac.

Putin arrived in Paris after meeting with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder over the weekend, also to discuss the situation in Iraq. France and Germany have been the strongest opponents of a war with Iraq, and France has veto power in the Security Council that could effectively block U.S. plans to attack Baghdad under a U.N. mandate.
..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
You should go and fight the N. Koreans... Or is that tooooooo much for you....
[/QUOTE]
Why should I fight North Korea? I don't have any problem with them.

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Joschka Fischer - i would have never imagined.

*(http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725723470.html)
Sydney Morning Herald, 10 February 2003

Thumping his hand on the table, his voice rising to a squeaky pitch, Joschka Fischer delivered the most memorable performance of his career as he took on the might of the United States administration and told them he was not convinced of the case for war.

The former 1960s street fighter - who once beat up a policeman in an anti-war demonstration - stunned the chandeliered hall at an international security conference in Munich into silence as he slipped into English to ensure his message would be understood by Donald Rumsfeld.

Mr Fischer discarded a speech which had been written for him, and referred instead to his own brief notes. In German, he referred to Saddam Hussein as a “horrible dictator” who had weapons of mass destruction and had bombed his neighbours.

But that, he said, was not argument enough for going to war. **“My generation learned you must make a case, and excuse me, I am not convinced,” the Green politician shouted in English while directing his gaze, teacher-like, over silver half-moon frames, at the United States defence secretary [Rumsfeld].

“That is my problem,” he said. “I cannot go to the public and say, ‘these are the reasons’, because I don’t believe in them.”***

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Thats excellent news about the Germans giving a dressing down to rumsfeld about his war mongering tactics and his unsubstantiated accusations against Iraq. Well done Germany. :k:

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Exactly, DhP. i was so heartened to read these comments by J. Fischer - what a wonderful man to speak up at such a moment during the international security conference that Rumsfeld attended.

i wish i had seen the clip of the moment that Fischer had switched from German to English for the benefit of Rumsfeld; this incident has yet to be reported in the news here.

This is another excellent thread of yours, by the way :k:

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Some of these European politicians are just amazing :kiss:

Schröder defends anti-war stance, The Guardian
13 February 2003

The German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, today defended his opposition to a war with Iraq and called again for expanded UN weapons inspections. “The chief duty of international politics is to prevent war. That is our orientation,” Mr Schröder told the German parliament. “No politics of expediency and no security doctrine must lead us to become accustomed to war as a normal political means.”

In his speech, Mr Schröder called on Iraq to “fully and actively” cooperate with the weapons inspectors, and said Germany’s goal was to establish structures to ensure long-term Iraqi containment and stability in the region. He rejected the idea that opposing war and favouring intensified inspections would ease pressure on Iraq.

“Every possibility of a peaceful solution must be exhausted - the inspections must be continued and they must be expanded,” he said. “To reject a war is not to be condemned to appeasement.”

Conservative politicians accused Mr Schröder of causing “serious damage to Germany’s vital diplomatic and security interests” by isolating the country from the US and from European allies who favour the US position. However, they failed to push a motion that would force Mr Schroder to give up his pledge not to endorse any war. The conservative opposition said that by ruling out the use of force - unlike France, which has always said it may support an attack in the end - that Mr Schröder had made war more likely by taking the pressure off Saddam Hussein.

Mr Schröder did not present details of a Franco-German plan to intensify weapons inspections. Instead he repeated elements of a plan presented by the French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, to the UN last week. The chancellor said the number of inspectors in Iraq should be “doubled or tripled,” reinforced with “technical material, infrastructure and specially qualified personnel” and that the inspectors’ ability to intervene should be strengthened. The US has claimed that additional inspectors would be ineffective and would shift the burden of proof that Saddam Hussein has disarmed to UN weapons inspectors.

The US was angered when Germany and France announced their plan for expanded inspections without telling the US, even though the American defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, was attending a security conference in Munich at the time. Previously Mr Rumsfeld had disparagingly referred to France and Germany as “Old Europe” in an attempt to isolate them. Tomorrow the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, is expected to ask the French and German foreign ministers whether their plan for greater inspections was an attempt to get Saddam Hussein’s government “off the hook.”

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German Defense Minister Criticizes Rumsfeld](VOA - Voice of America English News) VOA News 13 FEb 03

German Defense Minister Peter Struck has told parliament U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld went too far when he grouped Germany with Cuba and Libya as countries not supporting the American position on Iraq. Mr. Struck says Mr. Rumsfeld’s comments last week were unacceptable, unfair, and un-American. ..

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‘Mr Schroeder said he was committed to finding a peaceful solution to the conflict, along with France and another key member of the Security Council, Russia.’ :k:

Berlin and Paris affirm peace pledge](BBC NEWS | Europe | Germany makes plea to prevent war) BBC News 13 Feb 03

Germany and France have re-stated their case for more weapons inspectors in Iraq, amid a deepening rift between Nato allies over preparations for war against Baghdad.

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told the German parliament that the inspections had to continue, to determine exactly what the Iraqis possessed. The French have reiterated their support for the idea - saying Iraq was showing a change for the better in its attitude to the inspectors. Germany and France both sit on the United Nations Security Council, which US President George Bush hopes will approve a military strike against Iraq.

Nato rift
The statements came as Nato ambassadors abandoned their efforts to reach consensus on how best to improve the defence of Turkey in the event of US-led military action against Iraq. France, Germany and Belgium, which have vetoed the plans, fear moves to defend Turkey will imply a war is inevitable, and undermine peace efforts.

Mr Schroeder said he was committed to finding a peaceful solution to the conflict, along with France and another key member of the Security Council, Russia. He said UN Resolution 1441 calling on Baghdad to disarm “contains nothing automatic as far as military force is concerned”.

**The chancellor said a majority on the UN Security Council shared Germany’s view that all efforts for peace were necessary. He has ruled out voting in favour of war on Iraq in the Security Council. “We can disarm Iraq without war. I see grasping this chance as my responsibility,” he told the Bundestag. ** …

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Do France & Germany have a plan to avert Iraq war?

In a word, NO.