One more thing, in Islam men and women are equal.
But men and women are not the same, Agreed? Therefore, if they were treated the same, it would not be true equality.....in Islam men and women are treated differently because they are different--psychologically, physically, mentally, emotionally..and all the other 'lees'. They are different but equal...and it makes sense.
Once again, arguing POLITICS and not RELIGION, since they can't debate the post, they talk around it.
NY wrote: "Masooma, “Acthung” is a German word meaning “Attention”, which Hitler’s Camp Guards used to say to the prisoners."
Probably true...but has no relevance to the post.
NY wrote: "He couldn’t stand one week’s heat in Rawalpindi, and now he talks about Islamic Solidarity."
What the one has to do with the other, I don't know...I'd rather not resort to personal attacks Ahmadi...despite what you think, I do respect you and your opinion (nevermind how WEAK it is)...
NY Ahmadi wrote: "In his opinion, everything wrong with Islamic countries is due to the West (or Rani & Ahmadi Madrassa), so before agreeing with him, make sure you understand where he stands."
Maybe I should make it clear...so they know where I stand:
Achtung DOES NOT believe that EVERYTHING wrong with Islamic countries is due to the WEST...he DOES believe that you CANNOT ignore the foreign policies of certain western countries and exonerate them from wrong doing, both in the past and present. And that certain policies have adversely impacted the developing world (the "Muslim world" being part of that world). He does believe that certain countries in the West are hypocritical, in respect to their own gross violations of human rights, while they chastize the human rights of other nations. He believes that these violations are starting to be recognized by select individuals in these nations through civil protest (i.e. WTO in Seattle, and the World Bank protests). Achtung is a product of the West, he is Canadian - hardly anti-west.
Achtung
Conservative girl,
I’m glad you feel proud after reading Quran, me too!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
However, I don’t always feel proud of the way Muslim women are treated in this world. Do you? Or do you think that our situation is in accordance with the will of God?
Zara
ASALAM-U-ALAIKUM
Zaraatif, thank you
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
i appriciate your advice and i will do that,but let me confirm myself here,this thread was based on the issue that muslims today are not as petriotic as they were during the time of Holy Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), and whats the status of women in Islam. I totaly agree with what you stated in your post.
CG, i feel the same way sis
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
Girl from Quraysh, you made a very important point, and i stated the same point in my previous replies,“In OTHER WORDS ISLAMIC SOCIETY IS “A DUAL SEX
RATHER THAN UNISEX SOCIETY”. While maintaining the validity of the equal worth of men and women, the Quran does not judge this equality to mean equivalence or identity of the sexes.”
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
Fe Aman Ullah
Masooma
P.S zaraatif, yes i completely understand what you mean, but dear its not only muslim women who are treated in a very crual manner, even though Islamic teachings restricted this, but many non-muslim women are treated in the same manner. This issue doesn’t have to do anything with what Islam teaches, its not necessary that Muslims follow Islamic teachings and practice it. This is what this thread is all about. Islam in practice by many muslims today is not what is tought in Holy Quran.
NY wrote: "Masooma, “Acthung” is a German word meaning “Attention”, which Hitler’s Camp Guards used to say to the prisoners."
Probably true...but has no relevance to the post.<<<<
Achtung,
Nor were the other parts of my reply to you, but that did not stop you from giving your lengthy inanity. We all know where you stand on all the issues, there is not need to reiterate. I was just puzzled to see that you indicated that you agree 100% with Masooma, a 17 year old, who still has a lot to learn, not to mention what she indicated in one of her earlier replies “that she wouldn’t read Ahmadi literature because her aunt “told” her that they are not Muslims. You being a 21, should know better than making sweeping statements.
Yes…its kinda like what bernard shaw said–about Islam being the best religion, but Muslims the worst people-- ←
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/eek.gif
don’t attack me for this one..its a generalization i know, but… it fits..sorta.
Okay,hmmm well Masooma, Zaraatif i know exactly what you’re talking about. I’m going to paste something here i wrote a while ago to another post…
Logical, u said:
‘How many of the poor, uneducated and helpless women accuse their husbands of being UNfaithfull and ask for Divorce? How about some statistics? What would be their fate if they did so?’
Bad things DO happen, but its not because of Islam, it because people have deviated away from Islam, or just failed to live it completely, i guess
Asalam-u-alaikum
Sis i totaly agree!!
Nyahmadi je,
My aunt told me many other things, but at the end she always left it upto me to make a final decision.I'm not familiar with Ahmadi's , and being honest never had a discussion concerning Ahmadi believes.What i read in one of these threads, someone stated that Ahmadi people believe Mirza was a prophet?For all muslims, its necessery to believe that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last messenger of Allah, if Ahmadi's claim Mirza being a prophet, that goes against what Allah told the Mulims ummah in Quran, so what else is there to research about when the BASIC teachings of Islam are violated by Ahmadi's belief.
Masooma
Well Masooma, that should not alone be the reason for what you select to read. Darwin’s theory of evolution goes in total contradiction to religious beliefs. Should that stop scientists from researching into what may be there to discover based upon Darwin’s hypothesis? Same goes for reading books. If you read somewhere on the internet that “Ahmadis believe that Mirza was a Prophet” should not be a reason for you not to read their books. You can have other reasons, such as that “I am not into exploring other faiths”, or “I find theological writings boring”, or “I can’t stand Religious nonsense”, etc.
I was born to Ahmadi parents, and not only do I not believe that Mirza was a prophet, I don’t believe in any of the prophets. I think they were all phonies. They were good people, but it is not important to me whether or not they were prophets. Having said that, it doesn’t stop me from picking up a book to explore what belief systems are all about.
By the way, Ahmadis believe that he was “Imam Mehdi” and not a Prophet.
ASALAM-U-ALAIKUM,
This is interesting,Dear Nyahmadi i respect your suggessions and now i will inshallah read about Ahmadi belief.Now what else can i say, i don’t want to offend you by saying anything about your believes, everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want to,but may i ask you a question?what do you think about Quran?, and another question, why is it so that all the prophet’s(who are not prophets but only good people according to you) gave the SAME message to the people, that there is only ONE GOD!, why their teachings was alike?
Masooma
Waiting for your reply
This lengthy discussion produced a single conclusion emphasized by Masooma, Achtung & Girl from Quraish and, that is: NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM!
1)Logical asked Masooma to show where 'this Islam' as portrayed by Masooma was practised?
Masooma said: "I am projecting the islam which existed at the time of prophet muhammad, and that was the true islam, those were the true followers who spent most of their time praising and protecting islam, unlike muslims today who pay more attention on discreminating islam."
2)Rani protested that Islam teaches hate against non-muslims.
Masooma said: "Rani sis, what you are talking about is not islam, not the islamic teachings, what your talking about is the way muslims in todays world are representing it. Afghanistan,iraq,saudi arabia and rest of the muslim countries, non of them are following what quran asked them.
3)When asked to relate the generous Sharia'h laws, which sounded more like the Sweeden's Welfare State, to any Islamic country.
Masooma said: "you also asked me to give examples of countries following these Rules and being a perfect Islamic country. I dont have much knowledge about laws in Muslim countires, but i hope they do follow the teachings of Islam."
MASOOMA'S CONCLUSION: NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM!
1)"All countries inhabited by Muslims today are NOT run in a manner considered Islamic, most are run by dictators or monarchies who utilize Islam to control and maintain their power."
2)"The policies of the Taliban (who have adopted tribal Pushtun codes) and the Saudi monarchy (a monarchy itself is unIslamic) with the religion of Islam."
ACHTUNG'S CONCLUSION: NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM!
1)"Bad things DO happen, but its not because of Islam, it because people have deviated away from Islam, or just failed to live it completely, i guess ….."
2)"I ask you to study the Shariah and try to find anything that condones the latter practices. These practices are not the result of Islam, they arise from the prevalent cultures of those regions."
3)"I am not denying the existence of such situations, but you cannot blame them on Islam or Islamic Shariah."
GIRL FROM QURAISH'S CONCLUSION: NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM!
If nobody is following the true Islam then: HOW DO WE FIX THINGS?
[quote]
However, I don't always feel proud of the way Muslim women are treated in this world. Do you? Or do you think that our situation is in accordance with the will of God?
Zara
[/quote]
Dear Zara, No, I don't think that as of today our situation is in accordance with the will of God. But it was not my point that whether or not I am pleased with the Muslim womens’ status in today's world. My only point was that in our religon Islam, men and women are equal. Now if Muslims don’t follow the teachings of Islam and Quran then it doesn’t mean that there is (Nauzu’billah) a fault in Islam, Quran or Sunnah, but there is a fault in our system in which we mix up religon and culture together. Moreover, those verses that I cited were in response to the following statement that Rani made earlier:
[quote]
You refuse to face the truth about your religion and continue to write meaningless posts and expect to convert others to your way of thinking. You refuse to believe the evidence from your own book and are blind to treatment of women in muslim country which are direct result of Islamic teaching.
[/quote]
in which she was self-asserting that if Muslim women are not treated well in this era then it is because Islam teaches Muslims to do so. Non-believers always portray Islam as an oppressed religon but the truth is that Islam is the only religon that gives many rights to women. Islam always discourage to have ill-treatments towards female.
[This message has been edited by ConservativeGirl (edited June 29, 2000).]
ASALAM-U-ALAIKUM
LOGICAL, THE ANSWER IS "IJTEHAD"!,another way is by educating people in muslim countries about what Quran says and what Islam teaches.Telling them, what they are doing is not right and explaining why its not right,according to Quran.
NYAHMEDI,IM STILL WAITING FOR SOME ANSWERS.
Masooma
Masooma & NY Ahmedi,
1) Masooma,
I presume you are answering my post by suggesting we do Ijthehad! I appreciate the fact that you're using logical's suggestion for Ijthehad.
For someone who doesn't know much about the development of sharia'h laws or their practise or about Islam either, both shia & sunni; could you tell me how ijthehad would work in resolving the insanity that exists in shia & sunni Islam. Thank you.
P.S. I'll be posting some excerpts from some publications of Ayatollah Khomeni; maybe, you can then tell us how such a man represents the religion of Rehman & Rahim.
2)Masooma,
Furthermore, if your defense to all the Glossed up stories is:NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM! In other words, you allege that nobody is a muslim! How DARE you?
Then based on what ludicrous grounds do you accuse the Ahmedias of being not Muslims. Are Shias muslims? Are Sunni muslims? Remember, you're on the record as saying that:NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM! or, nobody is a muslim!
Masooma,
when you say: "...by educating people in muslim countries about what Quran says and what Islam teaches.Telling them, what they are doing is not right and explaining why its not right,according to Quran."
Maybe, you can start with the ayatollahs of Iran; it's too bad the demon khomani is dead; would have loved to see someone preaching to him that his sending a million young men & women to their death in a fratricidal war was unIslamic & against Quran!
Any idea - what your fate would be?
qadianies are non muslims cos they dont meet the requirements of being a muslim. mirza ghulam ahmed qadiani was a puppet of british intelligence who was on british payroll when he claimed that he was the last messanger of Allah. the aftermath of what happened to these qadianies proves it right. total number of ahmandies can be counted on fingers. if he had any credibility u would imagine people from cities other than rubwa will also embrace ahmadiat. ahmadiat is just another local cult and shouldnt be compared with a global religion like Islam which is followed by arabs, afghans, indonesians, malaysians, africans, turks and many more countries.
Shia/Sunni is a completely different matter. They both beleive that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was the last prohet of Allah and there will be no more prophets aftewards. They both beleive in Quran and follow the five pillars of Islam. Shias do not consider sunnies to be non muslims and the same holds the other way around. Logical and faceup you have gone from asking asking about shariah laws to justifying actions of Khumeni in this thread. Masooma has done an excellent job in answering all of your questions… which you can get as well by reading Quran and becoming a Muslim.
ASALAM-U-ALAIKUM,
FACEUP SAYS:
“Furthermore, if your defense to all the Glossed up stories is:NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM! In other words, you allege that nobody is a muslim! How DARE you?”
Excuse me?are u accusing me of saying that no one is muslim?In the whole article, where did i make a statement like this?By saying no one is actually following what Islam teaches, i didn’t mean that no-one is muslim!Who is muslim and who is not, i dont have the right to judge that, only Allah knows that,i can only argue over an issue if i think its wrong by providing evidence from Quran,but that doesn’t mean im saying that the person who im argueing with is not muslim, because that is to be judge by ALLAH only! so i’ll appriciate if u stop ASSUMING that im judging people and their imaan,because im not!
FACEUP SAYS:
“For someone who doesn’t know much about the development of sharia’h laws or their practise or about Islam either, both shia & sunni; could you tell me how ijthehad would work in resolving the insanity that exists in shia & sunni Islam. Thank you.”
ONCE AGAIN, I WILL repeat myself, there is no insanity which exists in shai & sunni “ISLAM”, we can’t do IJTEHAD against “ISLAM” because there is nothing to change, “IJTEHAD” goes against for the people who have the governing power and are not applying “ISLAMIC TEACHINGS” in setting laws.
Dear Logical,
That is the whole point, who has the guts to argue against a powerful governing party, that he/she is wrong according to ISLAM, and secondly, its a request to all of you readers, kindly dont bring up political issues in this thread.
Khuda hafiz
Fe Aman Ullah
Masooma
P.S THANK YOU MUNDAYAA!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
AND NYAHMADI ARE YOU THERE?
Dear Masooma, your questions require a very lengthy response. I will try to be as brief as I possibly can be. Have I read Quran? Yes. What do I think of it? A Divine Book. What do I think of Prophets? Here is when I can tell you that it will turn into a nasty and lengthy debate with everyone on this forum getting ready to kill me, so I will just give you a somewhat milder version of what I truly think. (Please note that I have read about prophets more from History Books and less from Divine Books).
There has been Imperialism in Biblical Prophecy. I have read books detailing relevant political and military history of the Fertile Crescent, from Tiglath Pileser III and Isaiah through to Cyrus and Second Isaiah. Which period perhaps covers the majority of Biblical prophets.
My question is, can we accurately apply the term “Prophet” to everyone who has been mentioned in Divine books? The answer is Only in an informal sense, because most Prophets did not “proclaim” that they were Prophets of God, but people insisted that they were. The first authentic Jewish prophet was Moses. The last was Malachi. Moses is often compared with Aaron, his older brother by three years. According to ancient accounts, when Moses died, only the men mourned for him. However, when Aaron died, both the men and the women grieved for him. The reason is that Moses was respected, but Aaron was loved. Both considered Prophets, Why?
Initially, they didn’t want to be prophets. Their role was involuntarily thrust upon them and they tried to dodge it. Even Moses, at first, gave a number of alibis. Among them, he said that he had a speech defect, that he was inarticulate. Later, Isaiah answered the call by declaring that he was unworthy. He called himself a man of unclean lips who was living among a people of unclean lips. Yet, people accepted none of their excuses and forced all of them to don the mantle of prophecy.
The most socially conscious prophets, after Moses, lived in the 7th and 8th centuries BC. Occupying this prophetic pantheon are names like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Micah, and Hosea. They were the solitary, lonely men, driven to speak out, (in God’s name, according to Divine Books), against the inequities, the injustices, and the idolatries of their day.
In conclusion, they were all good and humble people, and the term “Prophet” was pretty much forced on them by the people. One more thing, most of the biblical prophets spent a good deal of their time caring for animals and less with people.
One more thing, each Western Religion classifies “Prophet” differently. For example, Jesus is not considered a “Prophet in a Formal Sense by Jews” and only in an informal sense, because he came 400 years after the “Period of Prophecy”. Which Makes Mohammad also an informal prophet. But Muslims have different way of classifying a Prophet.
If you want to know more about my views, don’t be hesitant to ask.
Mundyaa says that Ahmadis are very small and confined to Rabwa alone. He has no clue. Ahmadiya missionaries are present all over the world (including one in Israel). There are Ahmadis living all over world and are making a difference in peoples’ lives.
Mundyaa & Masooma.
Masooma,
1) You are on record of saying that nobody is following Islam as was practised by prophet:
"I am projecting the islam which existed at the time of prophet muhammad, and that was the true islam, those were the true followers.."
If the current muslims are not true followers then they are false followers or kafirs. Here's what you say in your recent post:
"By saying no one is actually following what Islam teaches, i didn't mean that no-one is muslim!"
If no one is following what Islam teaches then they are not muslims. PERIOD! No sense in playing with words.
2) Here's another FLIP-FLOP in your position.
First, you say:"...THE ANSWER IS IJTEHAD"! and now, what do you say:
"we can't do IJTEHAD against ISLAM because there is nothing to change".
3)Re: logical's suggestion to first educate the ayatollahs of iran in the correct islam, here's what you say:
"who has the guts to argue against a powerful governing party, that he/she is wrong according to ISLAM, and secondly, its a request to all of you readers, kindly dont bring up political issues in this thread."
So, are you saying the ayatollahs are 'political party'? Kindly refrain from advising what i can bring up or not!
Finally, some words of advise to you:
i)Islam as practised today by most is, more or less, the same as it was in its early days; the ulemas & ayatollahs have seen to that!
2)Islam is a complete way of life and, this completeness includes culture & tradition. So, when you say it's culture that is at fault, remember it's islamic culture!
3)The word Sharia'h means 'flexible' and sharia'h laws are meant as 'evolving' . Today, it is neither flexible or evolving because the ulemas & ayatollahs have ETCHED the 7the century islamic laws in stones
and made them for all eternity. This is why you say there can be no Ijthehad; quite the contrary - we need ijthehad more than ever!
4)Because of #3 we have all this disconnect and Islam is totally out of context, time & place. You chose to use the excuse that it is not the true islam that is being practised; it is only that - an excuse.
5)The biggest problem in Islam today is lack of Religious Authority. Both sunni & shia are and have been without religious authority. They are in a boat without the oar.
MUNDYAA,
say ya'ar, who is a wahabi/salafi to say who is a muslim or not? Are you guys muslims?
How many times must one tell you guys that jamaat ahlus sunnah has declared you people "goomhrah" or 'gone astray'.
It can be argued that Ibn Taymiyaah was a prophet of the wahabis because you all do taqlid to his teachings not the 4 sunni imams.
In discussing sharia'h laws, we cannot avoid discussing khomeni and his abuse of islam!
ASALAM-U-ALAIKUM
FACEUP:"If the current muslims are not true followers then they are false followers or kafirs. Here's what you say in your recent post:
"By saying no one is actually following what Islam teaches, i didn't mean that no-one is muslim!"
If no one is following what Islam teaches then they are not muslims. PERIOD! No sense in playing with words"
----Faceup, being a muslim is different from following everything in Islam, it can be due to two reason, lack of knowledge, or egoistic hedonism.What do you say about Ahl-e Kitaab?are they KUFAAR? i dont think so, because its ALLAH who decides who is muslim and who is not. Muslims today are not following the Islam tought by Prophet, and Islam shown in Quran! Well im not talking about all, see its also based on how people think about a specific issue. Its not that if you think something is right everyone else will think the same. What you can do is argue and prove your position by providing evidence from Quran.Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist.Now who is a muslim? Muslim is one, who submits to none except the Will of the Creator, Who fashioned the human beings as the most excellent form of creation, and endowed them with the power called brains.Islam was the relegion of all prophets, and their followers were all Muslims.Therefore, its not known who is muslim and who is not! No one is perfect, i understand completely, but who gave the right to violate Islamic teachings and then say "we are following what Islam teaches us",this is what Muslims are doing in todays world. This doesn't make them "non-muslim", but it sure provides a false picture of Islam to view for non-believers.
Faceup:
First, you say:"...THE ANSWER IS IJTEHAD"! and now, what do you say:
"we can't do IJTEHAD against ISLAM because there is nothing to change".
FACEUP did you miss what i wrote after this statement??"IJTEHAD" goes against for the people who have the governing power and are not applying "ISLAMIC TEACHINGS" in setting laws."
Faceup says to mundayaa:
"How many times must one tell you guys that jamaat ahlus sunnah has declared you people "goomhrah" or 'gone astray'. "
Faceup, it doesn't matter what a person from jamaat ahlus sunnah says, it is not right to tell a person who believes on ALLAH, THE HOLY BOOKS, THE PROPHETS, THE ANGELS,THE DAY OF JUDGMENT,THE LIFE HERE AFTER, that he/she is not Muslim. Only Allah knows that.
Then you also accuse Khomeni as an abuser of Islam?I need some explaination?Why would you make such a statement regarding Ayatullah Khomeni?
Nyahmadi,
Thank you for the information you provided. I am not going to say anything about this issue because first i need to consult books. I will get back to this issue inshallah, with more points to discuss.
Khuda hafiz
Fe aman ullah
Masooma