Discussion on Muwiya

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I don’t understand why some still consider him as the 5th caliph giving him the title of Hazrat and ra etc?

Bottom line I don’t get it - why so much respect for him?

Coz all along I thought he was tyrant, the founder of the reign of darkness and corruption, who opposed and changed the purely Islamic nature of the Hazrat Ali (as) government and established in its place himself as the first in the line of despotic dynastic rulers, killing Hazrat Alis’ faithful supporters and more…

Been reading the peak of eloquence and let me post some letters Hazrat Ali(a.s) wrote to him…

**Letter 48

Remember that inequity and falsehood bring disgrace to a man in this world and in the Hereafter. The vicious character of a tyrant always betrays itself to those who carefully look into his actions. You must know that you can never get what has not been destined for you. There are people who want to grab a thing without having any right or claim over it. To get the object which they crave for, they try to interpret the commands of Allah to suit their purpose. But Allah has always given a lie to such people. Therefore, you should also fear the Day of Judgement, the day when only those people who have done deeds deserving reward will be happy, and those, who have surrendered themselves to Satan and do not want to come out of its influence, will cut a sorry figure. You invited me to let the Holy Book act as an arbitrator but you never believed that Book to be the Word of Allah. I, therefore, did not accept your invitation though I always accept the commands of that Book. **

Another letter 36

**Allahu Akbar! How hopelessly you are engulfed in your inordinate and sinful desires, how mercilessly you are swept by such vicious and unholy cravings which misguide you in this life and will bring you to a sad end. You have forsaken the cause of truth and justice and have arrogantly spurned the arguments which are agreeable to Allah and were unacceptable to man. What do you mean by creating this faction and revolt with pretence of taking revenge on the murderers of Uthman? The real facts of the case are that during the life of Caliph Uthman, you only went to his help when this action in the end was profitable to you and you could get something out of him, and you refused to help him when he was really in need of you and your support and for which he had frequently requested you.
**

Would expect a sane discussion on this.

Thanks.

2

Re: Discussion on Muwiya

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by little human: *
The real facts of the case are that during the life of Caliph Uthman,
[/QUOTE]

atleast good to see someone recognizes Uthman (ra) zul-noorain as a khalifa....

did u get this from a shiaa reference????

3

Re: Re: Discussion on Muwiya

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *

atleast good to see someone recognizes Uthman (ra) zul-noorain as a khalifa....

did u get this from a shiaa reference????
[/QUOTE]

Nahjul balagha

4

We had a smilar thread few days back closed, so I think LH, you know more what you know, and we know much what we know, it is use less to discuss the same topic again n again...

5

^ it's after that thread did i learn the different opinion on Muwiya. Although I felt the way they opened the thread was offending to some.

It's okay if you don't wanna participate in this thread.

Don't you guys worry I won't curse anyone :)

Sachi.

I just want to understand.

6

Hazrat Mauwiya:razi: was a companion of Rasoolulah:saw:

Ironic is that the very same people who whine about people judging others being muslim or not judge him and give fatwaa against him on his one mistake in life .. which was to make his son yazeed a wali-ehd thus building a foundation of “Malookiyat” instead of Khilafah…

That one mistake of him might not have been with wrong intentions and he might not know the consequences that were brought to ummah later and every one recognizes his fault.. yet we don’t consider him out of islam and for us he is a sahaabi of Rasoolulah:saw:

  • This was my point of view -
7

Anwaar, you are mistaken in saying that the above is the only sticking point Muslims (both amongst shia and sunnis) have with Muawiya. Theres a number of other crimes that are significantly more severe than the above, that people associate with him. Just something I wanted to point out, without debating with you what they were. They're all out there on the internet.

8

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ravage: *
Anwaar, you are mistaken in saying that the above is the only sticking point Muslims (both amongst shia and sunnis) have with Muawiya. Theres a number of other crimes that are significantly more severe than the above, that people associate with him. Just something I wanted to point out, without debating with you what they were.* They're all out there on the internet.**
[/QUOTE]
that says it all :-)

just tell me what do YOU think about him? do u think people are justified in declaring him out of islam? That is the only question I am asking.

9

Once again, Im not interested in casting decrees. When I say they're out on the internet, Im assuming

  • there are credible sources on the internet
  • you have the good sense and judgement to distinguish between credible and unreliable sources and form an opinion accordingly

If you must have my opinion, I sorta offered it before.. its in the negative, and for many other reasons than the one you cite as the solitary one.

beyond that i do not want to comment.

'tabarra' to me, means disassociating yourself from what you consider wrong, which to me can be done without publicly ridiculing someone considered esteemed by others. this is just my opinion.

edited during anwaar's reply :-. chalo kher.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
Once again, Im not interested in offering my opinion. When I say they're out on the internet, Im assuming

  • there are credible sources on the internet
  • you have the good sense and judgement to distinguish between credible and unreliable sources.

If you must have my opinion, I sorta offered it before.. its in the negative, and for many other reasons than the one you cite as the solitary one.

beyond that i do not want to comment.
[/QUOTE]
ok:)

I have a three-volume book in urdu named "Taareekh-e-Islam" by Akbar Shah Nejeeb Aabadi published by Maktaba-e-Ilmiya Saharan poor U.P (India) which seems very much credible and the information in that book is generally positive... Mistake is a Mistake and there is a fine line between mistake (wrong judgement) and sin... That's what i gather from there ...

Wallah-O-Alam!

11

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
That one mistake of him might not have been with wrong intentions
[/quote]
**Companion Makes Mistakes in Interpretation of Quran.*
This is to protect his "Malookiyat"

Hadith from Shahi Bukhari.

Vol 6, Book 60. Prophetic Commentary On The Qur'an (Tafseer Of The Prophet (pbuh)). Hadith 183.
Narrated By Zaid bin Wahb : I passed by (visited) Abu Dhar at Ar-Rabadha and said to him, "What has brought you to this land?" He said, "We were at Sham and I recited the Verse: "They who hoard up gold and silver and spend them not in the way of Allah; announce to them a painful torment, " (9.34) where upon Muawiya said, 'This Verse is not for us, but for the people of the Scripture.' Then I said, 'But it is both for us (Muslim) and for them.'"

He Complaint the Companion of Prophet

Hadith from Shahi Bukhari.

Vol 2, Book 24. Obligatory Charity Tax (Zakat). Hadith 488.
Narrated By Zaid bin Wahab : I passed by a place called Ar-Rabadha and by chance I met Abu Dhar and asked him, "What has brought you to this place?" He said, "I was in Sham and differed with Muawiya on the meaning of (the following verses of the Quran): 'They who hoard up gold and silver and spend them not in the way of Allah.' (9.34). Muawiya said, 'This verse is revealed regarding the people of the scriptures." I said, It was revealed regarding us and also the people of the scriptures." So we had a quarrel and Mu'awiya sent a complaint against me to 'Uthman. 'Uthman wrote to me to come to Medina, and I came to Medina. Many people came to me as if they had not seen me before. So I told this to 'Uthman who said to me, "You may depart and live nearby if you wish." That was the reason for my being here for even if an Ethiopian had been nominated as my ruler, I would have obeyed him.

He Appointed bad People on Ummah

Hadith from Shahi Bukhari.

Vol 6, Book 60. Prophetic Commentary On The Qur'an (Tafseer Of The Prophet (pbuh)). Hadith 352.
Narrated By Yusuf bin Mahak : Marwan had been appointed as the governor of Hijaz by Muawiya. He delivered a sermon and mentioned Yazid bin Muawiya so that the people might take the oath of allegiance to him as the successor of his father (Muawiya). Then 'Abdur Rahman bin Abu Bakr told him something whereupon Marwan ordered that he be arrested. But 'Abdur-Rahman entered 'Aisha's house and they could not arrest him. Marwan said, "It is he ('AbdurRahman) about whom Allah revealed this Verse:

'And the one who says to his parents: 'Fie on you! Do you hold out the promise to me...?'"

On that, 'Aisha said from behind a screen, "Allah did not reveal anything from the Qur'an about us except what was connected with the declaration of my innocence (of the slander)."

*He abused Ali and fought against him *

Hadith from Shahi Muslim.

Book 31. The Merits Of The Companions (pbut) Of The Holy Prophet (pbuh). Hadith 5915.
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camel. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind him in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: "Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
ok:)

I have a three-volume book in urdu named "Taareekh-e-Islam" by Akbar Shah Nejeeb Aabadi published by Maktaba-e-Ilmiya Saharan poor U.P (India) which seems very much credible and the information in that book is generally positive... Mistake is a Mistake and there is a fine line between mistake (wrong judgement) and sin... That's what i gather from there ...

Wallah-O-Alam!
[/QUOTE]

this is really a wonderful book, and quite rigthly in a positive frame of mind

a must read indeed

13

Khilafat o mulukiyat?
books by Wilfred Madelung come highly recommended although i have only ordered one lately :)

14

Re: Discussion on Muwiya

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by little human: *
I don't understand why some still consider him as the 5th caliph giving him the title of Hazrat and ra etc?

Bottom line I don't get it - why so much respect for him?

Coz all along I thought he was tyrant, the founder of the reign of darkness and corruption, who opposed and changed the purely Islamic nature of the Hazrat Ali (as) government and established in its place himself as the first in the line of despotic dynastic rulers, killing Hazrat Alis' faithful supporters and more.....

[/QUOTE]

Your question actually has two parts - his being given the title of Hazrat and ra, and his being considered as the 5th Caliph.

The former is much easier to answer - the titles of Hazrat and ra are given to every single companion of the Prophet (saws), related and non-related, who were Muslims. At no point either during or after his life was Hazrat Muawiyya (ra) ever commonly accepted as being out of the fold of Islam, though it has been accepted that he made several errors such as imposing dynastic rule despite strong evidence that this was not the Islamic way.

As for why he is considered as 5th Caliph ... his position as Caliph, despite his very late entry into the power race, appears to have ended up with the support of the majority (though mainly to do with the power he wielded rather as governor of Syria rather than any other factors). The backing by the majority is sufficient for us to hold him as Caliph.

His mistakes and errors aside, his contribution to the Muslim nation was considerable becase, as even the Encyclopaedia Brittanica states, he drove and oversaw the creation of the vast beaurocracy that enabled the Muslims to very effectively govern the large tracts of lands that they conquered - he stabilised the nation and its power.

Of course, unfortunately, he then proceeded to torpedo what would have been a rather nice legacy through making sure that his distinctly unsavoury son gained power after him, thus paving the way for acts of great evil.

15

[QUOTE]

The backing by the majority is sufficient for us to hold him as Caliph.

[/QUOTE]

^^ by that token.. wasnt yazid favoured by the majority too?

16

^
u can surely back ur statement with exact references....
to justify how "the majority" backed yazid....

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
u can surely back ur statement with exact references....
to justify how "the majority" backed yazid....
[/QUOTE]

surprisingly, you never asked for substantiation regarding the majority backing muawiya, even though in muawiyas case, its not so cut and dry.

nevertheless, Imam Hussain's 72 supporters laid bayt on his hand (which he lifted on 9th muharram). Im pretty sure there were a lot .. LOT more people on yazid's army and admin.

So coming back to the question, is he Khalifa-tul-Muslimeen Yazid then, because of the majority's support?

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

^^ by that token.. wasnt yazid favoured by the majority too?
[/QUOTE]

Not really. Muawiyya (ra) extracted a promise from the powerful and influential men amongst the Muslims for them to back Yazid's claim to Khilafat.

It is thus easy to suppose the majority were thus disenfranchised of the right to selection - the powerful forced their way.

Like I said, this is just one significant error of governance by a human being who was otherwise a well-accomplished ruler of the Muslims.

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Not really. Muawiyya (ra) extracted a promise from the powerful and influential men amongst the Muslims for them to back Yazid's claim to Khilafat.

It is thus easy to suppose the majority were thus disenfranchised of the right to selection - the powerful forced their way.

[/QUOTE]

Firstly, ballot style elections were never what decided khalifas, even in the sunni perspective. "Bayt" did. Bayt means consensus amongst a group of eminent/prominent people. Go against that and you lose basis for the initial set of caliphs too.

I'd like to know why your basis for your view that the majority were not disenfranchised of the right to selection during muawiya's rule is not based on supposition? As far as I know his basis was on even shakier than yazid. Not a group of eminent, eminent people from across arabia, but merely a state (syria) where people favoured him.

Technically Yazid's bayt should be more proper. Yazid came into power by either taking bayt from those who gave it to him, or eliminating he who didnt give it (Imam Hussain). Thereafter, his bayt was without challenge.

Once again therefore, is Yazid Khalifatul Muslimeen (R.A.) for you?

20

i find defination of sahabi, i.e. whoever saw Prophet is a sahabhi, very blurry indeed. Still, if this very open defination is to be applied then all of the Sahabhis can not be necessarily considered good.

Also i can not comprehenad how when writing abt Muawiya/Yazid, religious writers say "oh well, he made a mistake and its upto Allah to decide". FINE BY ME. But when it comes to other historic characters as Mukhtar ibne Saqafi the same writers start saying negative things starightaway. This is just pure bias and prejudice.