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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
americans have made christianity into something new, they are closer to being mushriks than to the people of the book.
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And when did Allah appoint you judge and jury. Be careful before you judge or throw the first stone, for there may be many more waiting to throw their stones at you......
To add, I believe in the message brought by Jesus, not necesarily all the fables in the bible, does that make me any less a Christian, I amm willing to take my chances on Judgement Day!
did i insult christianity or did christians did it by their actions?
even when i talk to christians, i do not always call them to islam, i say first follow christianity...i begin with pork. does bible not say do not eat pork? why is that christians eat is with impunity? they say that new testament does not say do not eat pork but old testament says that. but did jesus eat pork or not? was he not a jew? did he not follow the guidelines of the jewish law? bible says do not decipt any drawings or statues of God, i believe in one of the 10 comandements, but i see people admire pictures of God and Jesus and angels and so forth. is that not going against the teachings of christianity? bible talks against homosexuality, but i see gays are priests now, and openly...is that not agaisnt your religion? bible says that do not engage in premarital sex, while surveys show that overwhelming majortiy of teenagers are not virgin even b4 they graduate from highschool...yet people do not mind that, and it is considered normal to live with your boy friends or girl frieds, and to have children out of wedlock. that is what i am against, and that is what makes most people who say they are christians hypocrites, because they say somethings but do not follow the same things. got my point?
these are God's favorites, among many ayahs in quran, here is what i found as of now that describe allah's favorites.....interpret it as you wish...
The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast , who bow down , who prostrate themselves , who enjoin for Al-Ma'rûf and forbid from Al-Munkar , and who observe the limits set by Allâh . And give glad tidings to the believers. (At-Tawbah 9:112)
And He it is Who has put the night and the day in succession, for such who desires to remember or desires to show his gratitude. (Al-Furqan 25:62)
And the slaves of the Most Beneficent (Allâh) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they reply back with mild words of gentleness. (Al-Furqan 25:63)
And those who spend the night before their Lord, prostrate and standing. (Al-Furqan 25:64)
And those who say: "Our Lord! Avert from us the torment of Hell. Verily! Its torment is ever an inseparable, permanent punishment." (Al-Furqan 25:65)
Evil indeed it (Hell) is as an abode and as a place to dwell. (Al-Furqan 25:66)
And those, who, when they spend, are neither extravagant nor niggardly, but hold a medium (way) between those (extremes). (Al-Furqan 25:67)
And those who invoke not any other ilâh (god) along with Allâh, nor kill such life as Allâh has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. (Al-Furqan 25:68)
Quran 2:62
*Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. *
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Thanks armughal.
This ^ agree's with my normal way of thinking.
I think when I wrote the following.........
Who are those that obey him?
The jews think they are.
The christians think they are.
The muslims think they are.
Etc.
comes across bigoted......
Because I was thinking defensively, as I expected to read something saying that Muslims the only believers. And that was bigoted of me to assume. Please Forgive.
Versions of christianity are so numerous I don’t know all of them.
Catholic - Priest are celebate and don’t marry - have been scandals but not representative of entire church. Against abortion and birth control. Consider marriage a sacrament, divorce discouraged. Anulments of marriage allowed. Second marriage disallowed mass unless previous marriage anulled. Taking of bread and wine during mass concidered a sacrament and one must study prior to first sacrament of communion.
Baptist - Ones I met forbid dancing, liquor, ministers allowed to marry.
Methodist - Never met one.
Lutheran - I believe allowed to marry.
Evangelist - I think can marry. I think these include the people that are the television evangelists and are often televised seeking donations.
Angelican - Never met one. I think religion of England? Developed after Henry the 8th and the reformation. I think also influenced by Martin Luther.
Protestant - I think also influenced by Martin Luther.
Presbyterian - I think can marry. Did attend a presbyterian vacation bible school as a child. Sort of summer camp with activities and included memorizing quotes small quotes of the bible. I recall taking of communion encouraged to all participants during mass?
Etc…
I think majority religions discourage pre-marital sex. I know catholic’s do.
There are many Americans who are brought up without religious guidance period.
There are also religious people that acknowledge teenage pregnancies happen and try to help these teenagers. Some teach ways to prevent pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.
This doesn’t mean that American Christians encourage sexual promiscuity, live-in partners rather than married couples or gay marriage.
Secular society requires acceptance of imperfect human nature and deals with it best way humanly possible.
If your neighbor is part of a gay couple or if an unmarried student in your class become pregnant.. How have they hurt you?
You may not like or approve…but is the way they are living hurting you personally?
If a pregnant teenager asked for your help..
Would you help them or slam the door in their face? I think most christians would try to help.
i know all religoins do not like premarital sex, but i was talking about american society....
its more than just humanely helping these people, people actually dont find it BAD...that is the point....it is in our teachings that we are atleast supposed to hate bad, and consider it bad in our hearts if we cant talk against it or do anything about it...but i have seen most people who dont care...they might not do it, but if they hear of some other person having a baby out of wedlock, they "congratulate" him,....if you cant condemn him, atleast do not give him encouragement by congratulating him...if i hear that my coulege is having a baby out of wedlock ,i dont say a word..i just say oh ok...why should i or any one congratulate someone for sin??? that is what i have seen in american society and i abhore it..people have lost their sense of religion and yes helping the needy is good, but there are certain rules set by Allah or God or Yahweh, you can call him by any name, and those rules must be obeyed. even religious people here agree with secularism...it is contradictory because if you belive that God has made these rules for mankind, but you want to be ruled by other rules, then that is hypocricy. if some one believes in bible, they should not work for superficial displays for 10 comandements, because that does no good...they should try to get the laws of god in the rules book. or atleast hope that they become law....if people beileve in old testament , it has extensive set of rules for people to go by, why not follow them? why is that all dietary laws and regulations that God himself set in place in torah ignored by christians??? why is all the regulation about having modest dress for women ignored? people need to take proactive steps to bring goodness in this society otherwise this society is heading towards the fate that towns of sodom and goromah (sp.?) faced....
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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
i know all religoins do not like premarital sex, but i was talking about american society....
its more than just humanely helping these people, people actually dont find it BAD...that is the point....it is in our teachings that we are atleast supposed to hate bad, and consider it bad in our hearts if we cant talk against it or do anything about it...but i have seen most people who dont care...they might not do it, but if they hear of some other person having a baby out of wedlock, they "congratulate" him,....if you cant condemn him, atleast do not give him encouragement by congratulating him...if i hear that my coulege is having a baby out of wedlock ,i dont say a word..i just say oh ok...why should i or any one congratulate someone for sin??? that is what i have seen in american society and i abhore it..people have lost their sense of religion and yes helping the needy is good, but there are certain rules set by Allah or God or Yahweh, you can call him by any name, and those rules must be obeyed. even religious people here agree with secularism...it is contradictory because if you belive that God has made these rules for mankind, but you want to be ruled by other rules, then that is hypocricy. if some one believes in bible, they should not work for superficial displays for 10 comandements, because that does no good...they should try to get the laws of god in the rules book. or atleast hope that they become law....if people beileve in old testament , it has extensive set of rules for people to go by, why not follow them? why is that all dietary laws and regulations that God himself set in place in torah ignored by christians??? why is all the regulation about having modest dress for women ignored? people need to take proactive steps to bring goodness in this society otherwise this society is heading towards the fate that towns of sodom and goromah (sp.?) faced....
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Dear ThandyMazaq,
On the dietary issue I believe when Jesus preached the Good News or the New Testament it was determined that the gentiles need not follow the dietary laws. Not sure who, how, facts. Might have been Paul.
And I suppose not following dietary laws Christians could be in error. Some scholars have written about dietary laws reguarding pork and that in olden times was good sense due to possibility of [trichinosis?] illness caused by incorrectly cooking/handling pork.
I agree with you regarding the immodest Britany Spears type of dress that all the teens try to emulate. The mid-drifs with lowriders often bordering obscene. Hopefully most grow out of it.
I find the media attention given looks and Barbie-doll bodies shallow and causes unhealthy pressures on teens and young adults.
I abhore the concept of that reality show The Swan. I think it sets a bad example.
I also think part of the problems with young adults, especially in low-middle income families is due to lack of supervision with both parents out working fulltime and often overtime to make ends meet. Even less supervision among single parent families.
Do you live in the States? I'm curious because I think the media in the states does influence the young adults...however television is not a true reality to base opinion of American Society. People on shows like Jerry Springer or Cops don't represent the whole.
I can understand your thinking in terms of Sadom and Gomorah what with the attention today at gay marriage, unwed mothers, abortion,
prostitution, gambling... Media full of sex and violence. Doesn't paint a pretty picture.
However, this is not unique to America or Christians.
Majority of these vices been around sinse mankind began. Today we are just more exposed. Take a look at European, Japan or S. American media.
let me ask you a question, you say that gentiles need not follow the law of God, i find it hard to believe that God would make two sets of rules for people just because of their race. so gentiles can get it easy and jews get the heavy burden? i dont get it. in islam i have been raised in a way that any one can acheive the love of Allah or God and it is not bound by any race or some other factor that is not in the control of the individual. this concept of gentiles is so strange to me that i cant understand it. any how, i do know about it, so i guess you are right, gentiles might be excused from some laws in christian religion. but at what limit? does that mean all laws are to be thrown outside? doesnt it say in 2nd comandement that you shall not decipt any image?
infact i found this online..let me qoute
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments'
but why is that even born again christians have no problem with statues of Jesus? or pictures of god in the chathedrals, like the great picture in france that has god and angels and so forth? or is the 2nd commandement not for gentiles too?? about pork, so just because now there is no fear of disease that prohibition can be relazed as well?? i am for the view that God and his commands are for eternity until the day of judgement, so even if we get scientific knowledge that is contrary to God's commands, we should choose the God's commands.
now we have a study that drinking vine can be of health benefit, does that mean that muslims start drinking vine? not really. so i have the opinion that wordly benefits or desires do not outweigh the command of God.
and yes i do live in states, and that is why i speak of first hand experience. i dont know about jerry springer, but i do know that all the sins are common here. yes sins of these kinds, such as sodomy and bisexuality and such are present in even muslim countries, but there they are hidden, people atleast have the guts to oppose them. the society rejects such sins .
and you talk about growing out of the sins...well the teens might grow out of their sins, but as long as they do not find if abhorent, they will not stop their children from commiting such offenses, and the society will still have a large number of people doing sins while the rest of the society will be silent because they too did such sins in their youth and feel that if they try to stop their children their children will say well mom you did that when you were my age too, why stop me?
you see where i am getting at? the first step towards stoping sin is finding is abhorent in your heart, but i find that lacking.
i know a girl who is going to some thrid world country to build a church for summer...while she wears such clothes that would shame a prostitute. people at work constantly pass remarks hinting at their lusts for her...my question is why not stop such things from happening by wearing clothes that are litte loose? so your body figures are not shown clearly to people? i know even most muslims will not wear the veil, but what is wrong in asking for descent clothes that not only cover but HIDE the body figure. so you will have done your part in being modest, sick men can still have sick desires, but you still did your part.
Sorry to respond so slowly. You raise many good points and deserve reply. I remind that most non-christians view concept of christianity as a whole… but there are many variations and traditions…not all concur.
ThandyMazaq,
The view taken by the catholic tradition. Illustrating so that you might gain understanding of this view. Not saying you are wrong if you disagree with this view.
(excerpt)
This commandment would seem absolutely to forbid the making of any kind of representation of men, animals, or even plants:
Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them (Ex., xx, 3-5).
The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent (Dec., 1543).
[The Holy Synod commands] that images of Christ, and other saints are to be held and kept especially in churches, that due honour and reverence (debitum honorem et venerationem) are to be paid to them,
not that any divinity or power is thought to be in them for the sake of which they may be worshipped, or that anything can be asked of them, or that any trust may be put in images, as was done by the heathen who put their trust in their idols [Ps. cxxxiv, 15 sqq.],*
but because the honour shown to them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by kissing, uncovering to, kneeling before images we adore Christ and honour the saints whose likeness they bear.
View is that the commandment refers to pagan worship of idols as practised by the Israelites with the creation of the golden calf.
Link posted gives detailed reasoning behind support given this view.
Example: even in the Temple there were images depicted.
Iions and bulls supported the basins in the temple (III Kings, vii, 25, 29). Especially there are the cherubim, great carved figures of beasts (Ezech., i, 5; x, 20, where they are called beasts), that stood over the ark of the covenant (Ex., xxv, 18-22; III Kings, vi, 23-8; viii, 6-7, etc.)
P.S. I will respond separately to other questions comments raised by your last post. Don’t want to make my post too long winded.
^
when u ask a hindu (well known for idol worship) he will tell it to u loud and clear that he does not pray to the idol and knows it is powerless, but he keeps the idol just as a symbol of God (bhagwaan) so that he may be more concentrated on the worship....
its all just excuses....
u dont really have any answer to idol worship in any form....
they r all mere excuses....
believing that God looks at us thru the eyes of the idols or the pictures or that He feels respected when we bow to those idols is just a mockery of one's own self....
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*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
when u ask a hindu (well known for idol worship) he will tell it to u loud and clear that he does not pray to the idol and knows it is powerless, but he keeps the idol just as a symbol of God (bhagwaan) so that he may be more concentrated on the worship....
its all just excuses....
u dont really have any answer to idol worship in any form....
they r all mere excuses....
believing that God looks at us thru the eyes of the idols or the pictures or that He feels respected when we bow to those idols is just a mockery of one's own self....
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Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.
Then you come to moral questions. There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.
You will find that in the Gospels Christ said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about Hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world.
You will find that in the Gospels Christ said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching.
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Dear Sher,
In my thinking that statement refers to corruption. Jesus was saying that religious leaders of the time bid the people to observe the Law. Yet the behavior of the religious leaders themselves was suspect.
Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. *****
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers....................................................***
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone............*****
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity...............*****
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
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*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
believing that God looks at us thru the eyes of the idols or the pictures or that He feels respected when we bow to those idols is just a mockery of one's own self....
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armughal,
Your right.
And? Who said that God looks at us thru the eyes of idols?
In my thinking.... one should behave as if God is always present.
Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.
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religion is the deeper thought in science....
figuring out what makes an apple fall to the ground is science....
figuring out how the apple got up there on the first place, who put it there, who made its tree coem out, who made the earth it stands on, who made the water that the tree used, who created the sun that gave it light, and all these things and lot more is wht only religion can tell....
religion is the deeper thought in science....
figuring out what makes an apple fall to the ground is science....
figuring out how the apple got up there on the first place, who put it there, who made its tree coem out, who made the earth it stands on, who made the water that the tree used, who created the sun that gave it light, and all these things and lot more is wht only religion can tell....
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In the same way, figuring out how apple came to existans is also science.
I mean that is the whole point here. Who is God and how exactly he created that very apple. You know what, there are good chances that this concept of God change in time and we found out completely different explaination for creation. I think the God you are talking about was created by human.
^
ur thinking is stuck somewhere....
nothing can come out of nowhere....
so everything existing has to have a creator....
and that creator has to have a creator....
if u put this in an endless chain, u have a problem....
but if u fix one end with GOD, i.e. the Ultimate Creator, everything starts to make sense....
read this....
*By definition, time is that dimension in which cause-and-effect phenomena take place. No time, no cause and effect. If time's beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. …It tells us that the Creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe. * Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos: How Greatest Scientific Discoveries of The Century Reveal God, Colorado: NavPress, revised edition, 1995, p. 76]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
ur thinking is stuck somewhere....
nothing can come out of nowhere....
so everything existing has to have a creator....
and that creator has to have a creator....
if u put this in an endless chain, u have a problem....
but if u fix one end with GOD, i.e. the Ultimate Creator, everything starts to make sense....
read this....
*By definition, time is that dimension in which cause-and-effect phenomena take place. No time, no cause and effect. If time's beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. …It tells us that the Creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe. * Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos: How Greatest Scientific Discoveries of The Century Reveal God, Colorado: NavPress, revised edition, 1995, p. 76]
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One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always “been” than it is to say that matter has always “been”? As Carl Sagan has said, “If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?”
