Whats the difference between Estishad and suicide?? Many scholors like Al bany say that Istishaad is hmm not ok Islamically. Plz comment..
Istishad is basically a marketing ploy used by Hamas and Islamic Jihad to fool gullible Palestinians.
reza jaan,
the good thing for any situation is to break it down to chronology.
From Islamic perspective suicide bombing is wrong, as it is unislamic. We condemn the suicide bombing the same way a pro-israeli would "condemn" the butchering of the palestinain people and then go winkwink. As muslims we condemn them both. Putting Islam aside, it becomes a largely value-neutral scenario. It is the struggle of a people against a regional racist apartheid hegemon which is now isolated by europe, UN, the arab and muslim countries. It is the struggle of the palestinain people who have been driven from their land, their homes, have been opressed and buthered, the attrocities covered up by the rogue state of Israel. It would've been better if the palestinian suicide bombers instead of targetting civilians targetted Isreali army or military units. Since that is largely an unfeasible scenario since the israleli bullets dont differentiate between women, children, unarmed civilians and the actual geurilla fighters then the palestinain human bombs dont have the burden of being altruistic either. Keep in mind that that suicide bomber became once precisly because he lost his mother, his brother, his daughter, his home, his pride. For every one Israeli dead, tens of hundreds of palestinians die. WHere is the proper condemnation? It is all a matter of influence and greenbucks.
Islam should be kept out of this, since through Islamic perspective we have clear indications of right and wrong.
If we say it is allowed by Islam, then we fear risking a "wholistic mentality" whereby this practice would become a sanctioned part of the religion.
May Allah forgive and bless the martyrs of palestine with paradise. Their sacrifices WILL win them now their himeland which not even shron-bush's papa or even alphonso can stop from happeneing.
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 16, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Faraz Mir:
Istishad is basically a marketing ploy used by Hamas and Islamic Jihad to fool gullible Palestinians.
[/quote]
dear faraz,
certainly you are aware that hamas and hezbollah get their fundings from mainly shia jehadi organizations. And I dont hink shiite muslims refer to themselves as wahabi. Or do you generalize the term to everyone to create an atmosphere of wahabiphobia?
I don't care if you are a Wahabi, Shia, Hanafi or Ismaili. If you suport Suicide bombing, you are going against Islam.
ok, but i beleive its unfair to call everything you despise as wahabi…as if to give this word somekind of a vile touch.
Wahabi is mostly good.
BTW, thanks for a logical reply. Somethign that has been missing by other folks here.
We should educate the Palestinian people instead of further misleading them and show them a better way, so they do not go against Islam. I recommend Pakistan (or somebody else) send them RPG-7 rockets to make them stand a chance against IDF and not have to resort to un-Islamic methods.
Well ok, since you asked nicely,
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
I’ll cut down on the Wahabi-bashing, but they have some incredibly wrong intrepretations of the Sunnah.
As far as i knew Hamas is funded by Sunnis and is a sunni organisaion prob by Saudis. Although Iran may have some contribution. But i am not sure..
Like??
I wish! lol
we cannot afford that, we couldnt make a stand in our own backyard much less try to go and takeover someone else’s struggle. Especially if the villian involved happened to be the “chosen people” who have the Capitol HIll by the Balls. There is no Ummah, only spiritual connectivity left.
For US-Israel nexus this is what can be said,
Ba Amreekaw deewanao
Ba Israel Hoshyarbash
Hey Faraz don't fall for the wahabi guile!!!
Don't back off man! It was nice to see someone who could really take them on.
Reza, here’s one out of many inaccuricies in the Wahabi faith.
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid//muslimarticles/khariji_false.html
I wouldn’t be so hard on them, only if they did not spread so much lies against Hanafis and others.
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Answer_to_an_Enemy_of_Islam/enemy-7.htm
Just one example out of many.
Take them on? With lies and distorted information? SURE bring it on.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
Iran supports hamas, then hamas carries out the suicide bombings. So, faraz should be telling truth about shias and how they support suicide bombings against israel and not spreading lies and hate against “wahabis,” who have denounced suicide bombings and have declared it haram in light of SUNNAH and Quran:
Suicide Bombings in the Scales of Islamic Law http://www.allaahuakbar.net/scholars/albaani/suicide_bombing.htm
http://islamicity.com/qa/action.lasso?-db=Services&-lay=Ask&-error=error.shtml&-max=25&-format=Topics.shtml&-op=cn&Topic=suicide+bombing&-op=eq&Answer_flag=X&-Sortfield=Topic&-find
If you don’t get anything, search for “suicide boming” in Q&A area or go to www.islamicity.com and search for it on left side.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited April 16, 2002).]
Please define.. Estishad
Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ .::.
**I wouldn’t be so hard on them, only if they did not spread so much lies against Hanafis and others. http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Answer_to_an_Enemy_of_Islam/enemy-7.htm **
Dear Faraz,
you were perhaps referring to this line in the link,"“In many countries, it is seen that the Hanafis do not perform salat together with the Shafi’is. Saying ‘amin’ loud behind the imam and moving the finger up when reciting the Tahiyya have been causing enmity.”
Well this means nothing. Even in the same school of thought there would small timy mintue differences. All four major madhahib shafi,hanafi,humbli, malki can pray behind one another and they do in all muslims countries.
And wahabi is not seperate school of thought I beleive, though some people may want to make it one. It was only a silsila or movement. Saudis are mostly hanafi and shafi muslims. Majority being hanafi. Any one can be a wahabi. A hanafi, a shafi, humbli etc…
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 16, 2002).]
Sultan,
No, it is not true. A favorite pastime of Wahabis is to criticize haanfis, shafis, malakis etc. They have done in the link above, where their argument was torn into. But there are perhaps the only group/sect/cult of Sunnis who do this. Do you see Hanafis criticizing Malakis, Shafis criticizing Hunbalis? No, because we all recognize that all the four madhabs are Muslim and our differences are very superficial. But Wahabis make it a point to criticize every other madhabs, while still saying we recognize the other madhabs…yeah right. Because Wahabis have rejected the teachings of all there other scholars and only used their own scholars to try to re-interpret the Sunnah, Hadiths etc. That is why their teachings are so full of mistakes. And while they will always tell you that they are just following the Quran and Sunnah, in fact they are following the Quran and Sunnah as THEY have interpreted it, which has some significant differences then for example mainstream Sunnis like Hanafis etc.
So, they are following their own Wahabi version, which if they want to, I don’t care, but these people should stop fooling us into believing that they are somehow following a “better” and more “accurate” version of Quran and Sunnah. That is untrue! Their version has probably more mistakes then the mainstream Sunnis, but differences aside, who gave them the right to criticize other madhabs or tell us they have the best version of all?
And I’m pretty sure most Saudis are Hanbalis. Could be wrong.
Here’s a good balanced approach to this: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/madhab/salafi.htm
[This message has been edited by Faraz Mir (edited April 16, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by OldLahori:
*Hey Faraz don't fall for the wahabi guile!!!
Don't back off man! It was nice to see someone who could really take them on. *
[/quote]
Now here's someone who likes seeing Muslims fight while he populates the sidelines and protects his own butt.
Dear Faraz,
you rpovided me with these links:
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid//muslimarticles/khariji_false.html
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Answer_to_an_Enemy_of_Islam/enemy-7.htm
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/madhab/salafi.htm
I read em all, of these 3 only 2 was actually adressing the wahabis.
And I didnot see anywhere, were it would give any actual excerpts where the wahabis scholars would be attacking hanafi, sha’fi, hunbli, or maliki school o fthoughts.
The relevant link which actually adresses wahabis itself says:
“Those who want to be in the path of as-Sahabat al-kiram (ridwan-Allahu ta’ala 'alaihim ajmain) have to belong to the madhhab of Ahl as-Sunnat and should avoid upstart, corrupt movements”
Thus wahabis is a movement and not a school of thought. It came out to rid Islam of the corruption that had ensued after the polotical palooza of the omayyads, the abbasis, fatimids and all the kharafat that were created for political ends including deliberate creation of false ahadith to mislead the muslims.
FOr a muslim, the first and foremost thing for guidance is nothing but the Quran and the close second is the sunnah of the prophet (saw). The sunnah and ahadith would always be subservient to the direct revelation of ALlah which is the Quran. We do have cases in which ahadith contradict Quran, hence the fact that many ahadith were fabricated long after the prophet’s death.
As far as wahabis insulting or attacking other madhahib this is what they say for themslevs,
**Who are the Salaf and who are the Salafis?
The Pious Forefathers (i.e. As-Salaf as-Saalih) of the Islamic Community of Believers are the Companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, their Followers (the Taabi’een and the Taabi Taabi’een (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims) and the Scholars of the
Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah after them who followed their way in belief
and deed.
Among them are : Imam Abu Hanifah (150 AH), Al-Awzai (157 AH), Ath-Thawri (161AH), Al Laith ibn Saad (175 AH _ô), Imam Malik (179 AH), Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak (181 AH), Sufyan ibn Uyainah (198 AH), Imam Ash-Shafi’i (204 AH), Ishaq (238 AH), Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (241 AH), Al-Bukhari (256 AH), Muslim (261 AH), Abu Dawood (275 AH) and others Ibn Taymiyyah (728 AH), and his students: Adh-Dhahabi (748 AH), Ibn al-Qayyim (751 AH), Ibn Katheer (774 AH) and others**
One doesnot necessarily have to identify oneself as wahabi inorder to appreciate the empirical emphasis the salafis preached. To that end they were also influenced by the mutazillites.
Majority of the muslims today are wahabis, be it in KSA, Pakistan, yemen, palestine, indonesia. To me wahabiism means to bring Islam to people to make them understand what Islam really is and let them know if their actions are in accordaance to Islam.
A few more excerpts
**The Salafi Da’wah (da’wah literally means “call”, and in this sense it refers to calling to the truth, preaching and propagation) is that of the Qur’an and the Sunnah (i.e. the Religion of Islam - pure and free from any and all additions, deletions and alterations). It means adherence to the Path of the Messenger, may the peace of Allah be upon him, and the Faithful Believers, namely the Pious Forefathers (i.e. As-Salaf as-Saalih) of the Islamic Community of Believers and all those who follow in their footsteps in belief, actions and morals.
Allah has said: “And whoever contends with and contradicts the Messenger after guidance has been clearly conveyed to him and chooses a path other than that of the Faithful Believers, We shall leave him in the Path he has chosen and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge!” [Surah al-Nisaa’ 4:115]
Shaikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah commented on this verse: "All who contradict and oppose the Messenger after the right path has been clearly shown to them, have followed other than the Path of the Believers; and all who follow other than the Path of the Believers have
contradicted and opposed the Messenger after the right Path has been shown to them. If one thinks that he is following the Path of the Faithful Believers and is mistaken, he is in the same position as one who thinks he is following the Messenger and is mistaken. **
**Thus, it suffices to say that the true Salafis, otherwise called Wahabis to those who oppose them, hold hatred for the Saudi royal family, and seek to follow the way of the Prophet Muhammand, mayAllah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and his Companions.
Among the most famous scholars who oppose the government recently was Sheikh Abd Alrahman Al Dawsary whose speeches and tapes from the early 70’s show his clear opposition to the ruling Al Sa’ud. It is even said that he had died by a conspiracy plot by Al Sa’ud because they were unable to apprehend or arrest him due to his notoriety and the love of people to him. Another is Abdallah Ibn Humaid who passed away in the early eighties who was the highest official of the judicial system in Saudia. He resigned when it was clear to him their laws and applications of what they have of Islamic Laws are not according to Islam. It is unfortunate that his son, one of the imaams in the haram
Makkah, has not followed his fathers footsteps.
More recently is a group of younger scholars who revived the opposition to Saudia after the Gulf War and were apprehended in Saudia in 1992 after series of gathering and protests they conducted, among them are Salman Al Awdeh, Safar Al Hawaly, Naser Al Umar and much more, may Allah reward them for the five years they spent in Saudi Prison and aid in the release of Shikeh Saoud Zughier who held the toughest stance yet and was prohibited from release like his brothers.
This last section clears the relationship between Al Sa’ud and the Salafy Daw’ah insha Allah. May Allah subhana wa ta’ala grant us leaders who govern us by the Qur’an and Sunnah, with scholars along their side who fear no one but Allah and the day of judgement.**
In short I appreciate the movement and what it strove to do and that it is not the only reformist that has come to us over the ages. And to my best knowledge and from my large circle of freinds (alhamdolillah), from diverse background the fact is the most muslims whether they call themselves shaafi or like yemenis who are mostly hanbali they all appreciate the salafis and go an extra step to declare themselves as such.
In deed it is only the word of Allah that should guide us and the example of the prophet that should be emulated. Muhammad saw was only a man and nothing more. And the rest of the sahaba karam were nothing more than men who were pious and rightoeus and extraordinary but not embodiment of divine perfection.
jazakAllah
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 17, 2002).]