Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
I want to ask you to look your own face in the mirror and compare yourself with other Indians of North Indian origin. Do you find any difference? Can you differentiate between Indian crowd and Pakistani crowd by their physical features? If you happen to watch a cricket match between India and Pakistan and if you never knew any cricketer then can you confidently say which team belongs to India or Pakistan.
If you do the above suggested test between North Indians and South Indians then you could identify the difference but you won’t find the difference between North Indians and Pakistanis.
If you do the above test between Iranians and Pakistanis or between Central Asians and Pakistanis then you would immediately find the difference.
So don’t talk about the different civilization. You and your ancestors (and mine too) were Hindus who got converted to Islam. Don’t degrade your own ancestors by saying that Islam brought civilization to India.
India had a great civilization and that’s why a whole ocean is named after India. America was discovered because of the attempt to find a sea route to India. Again, India possesses almost a dozen languages with each one having its own unique script. No other civilization in the world can boast of so many language script. The whole of Europe has just three scripts (Roman, Greek and Russian). The whole of middle east has just three scripts (Arabic, Persian and Hebrew). Even China and East Asea cannot match India in this aspect.
India had a great civilization and that’s why Pakistan is called a part of Indian subcontinent and the people of Pakistan are considered Indo-Aryan and all the languages spoken by Pakistanis fall under Indo-Aryan language category. And the ocean bordering Pakistani is goes by the name as Indian ocean.
Finally a genetic test of mitochondria of human cell of Pakistanis, Indians and central asians would set clear all your doubts about the above subject. I am pretty sure that the above test would prove that the genetic distance between Indians and Pakistanis is almost none compared to that between Pakistanis and Central Aseans.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
lol had 3 afghans(2 girls and 1 guy) in ma class and all of them looked south indian to me…no difference dark and skinny as south indians …90 % of the time i can tell difference between a paki and indian. …yes we punjabi and sindis r same as north indians but they r a meniorty(10%) and culturally and racially they have more in commen with us then we have with indians . yeh u hear it we have nothing in commen with most indian ..its some indians who share something with us…lol india is nothing more then a geoghrapical location. …a punjabi has nothing in commen with a bangali our lango/dress/race /food and even religion is different …if u look at that then even pushtuns/ozbeeks/tajiks and turkmen r different in their race …lol almost halve of afghan population looks like yellow chiness too me :halo: …get this in ur friggen head india is a “country”" which has different races/cultures/ langos and religiouns …a kashmiri/punjabi/sindi looks nothing like an avarage indian…most indian r dravedian which isn,t the case with punjabis/sindis/kashmiris…yes there r some but they r less then 15% of our population and most of them r "“mohajirs” :o…
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
True, Indians do say the most ignorant and wishful of things sometimes that just makes one laugh, and this is so called educated Indians I'm talking about not the fundo Hindus who nothing better can be expected of.. both sides have serious issues.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
Some old posts of mine but it is relevant to the topic.
I’m terribly sorry if they don’t make sense, they were taken out of this thread http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=212864 and were part of an ongoing discussion. However, there are relevant points that are not specifically responding to someones questions.
As to the person who said there exist no arabs, persians and turks in pakistan they must be socially isolated. To never have mingled with the ashraf of pakistani society, and instead be subjected to socializing with ajlaf or azral commoners must be unfortunate.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
Heres an important excerpt taken from a site dealing with pakistani history:
Pakistanis are of noble birth and higher pedigree then the natives of india. Most pakistanis are descended from arabs, persians, turks, afghans and other central asians.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
this kind of approach and we call ourselves a islamic state?
firstly what is pakistan's identity ...is it islamic ideology or ethnicly based ?
secondly should we take pride in our ancestors like the kuffar of Makkah? when Islam says that piety is the only thing that elevates a person in the eyes of Allah ....what is the difference between who is of turkic / indian descent and someone of arabic descent ?
should we pride ourselves about harrapa or other bygone civilizations? .....I have heard that aitizaz hussain has written a book on this .....he wants to create a kind of artificial pakistani national identity seperate from islam
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
^ I will take that as a compliment brother...... but in above post superority over another muslim is demonstrated by noble birth alone ...I had to say something
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
Syed Sahib, out of the approximately 450 million muslims of the subcontinent, how many are of foreign descent and how many of local? It is true that muslims of foriegn lands have settled in the continent but they have been absorbed by the local populations. We have this saying at my house, "The city of Karachi is inhabited by two types of people, Syeds and Khans." This is an exageration of Pakistanis and Urdu speaking people's claim of foriegn ancestory. Every Urdu Speaking person I meet from UP or Bihar claims to be a syed or a pathan. Im going to be blunt, the majority of these people look like dravidians who have been inhabiting these areas for 5000 years. LETS BE REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Look at the Mughals. Babur was a mongloid. A few generations later the Mughals looked South Asian. this is because the mughals took the daughters of noble Hindus and made them their wives. Yes, a few persian princesses came here and there but the majority of their descendants have Indian blood. Look at the families of the mughals today and they look 100% South Asian. Are they of foriegn blood? No, because they have married into locals, making their descendants locals.
It is irrational to believe that all muslim South Asians are of foreign descent. In reality, most South Asian muslims are descendants of local converts. I know this is hard for some of you to except but its true; those "infidels" in our neighbouring land are actually related to us.
My question is this, Why are we so insecure as a nation and as peoples? Why are South Asians so insecure with themselves? Why do we need some Arab who married into our families 50 or a 100 or a 1000 years ago to define ourselves? Why is foreign blood called noble? We have escaped the hindu caste system so why do we have to live through a muslim caste system? Why do syeds only marry into syed? Does our religion not preach equality?
SOUTH ASIAN PEOPLE, embrace yourselves, embrace your 5000 years of history and culture!
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
[QUOTE]
My question is this, Why are we so insecure as a nation and as peoples? Why are South Asians so insecure with themselves? Why do we need some Arab who married into our families 50 or a 100 or a 1000 years ago to define ourselves? Why is foreign blood called noble? We have escaped the hindu caste system so why do we have to live through a muslim caste system? Why do syeds only marry into syed? Does our religion not preach equality?
[/QUOTE]
just to add to your argument ...this practice in itself totally against islamic teachings
This concept was created by mulsim ruling classes to enforce their hold on the masses ....first the arabs then turks and persians
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
Syed you are a Jaahil, you make me sick.
Pedigree? What are you? A dog?
There is no ashraf or ajlaf in Islaam, these are Hindu concepts adopted by ignorant Muslims.
Allaah says (intrepretation of the meaning):
“ Oh mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single Person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; fear Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you”. (The Holy Quran 4:1)
Also the Prophet (sal allaahu alayhe wassallam) is reported to have said:
"An Arab is not superior over a non-Arab nor is a non-Arab superior over an Arab; also a White is not superior over a Black nor is a Black superior over a White; except by piety and good action."
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
An islamic state.
I have not taken false pride in my ancestors, far from it actually. I was merely responding to the title of the the thread in the affirmative, that is, muslims did indeed bring civilization to ‘india’. Of course these muslims being ethnically non-aboriginal of pakistan is a historical fact. Therefore, it becomes salent to any reader that it was the arabs, persians and turks that civilized the ‘indians’.
Its quite easy infact, and can be represented easily.
Before Islam’s arrival:
India was a place where hindus burned their wives, practiced caste system, prayed to animal gods, had ugly architecture, had no system of efficient governance, no schools, no philosophies, no sense of national identity, would walk around naked as animals and no sense of morality.
After Islam’s arrival(which was spearheaded by arabs, persians and turks):
Women enjoyed their rights as prescribed by the creator, disgusting idols(look up lingam and yoni) were destroyed and in their place beautiful islamic structures were constructed, governments were established which followed the laws of the creator which establised a clear sense of right and wrong and hindus were told to put on cloth.
I never mentioned anything of the sort, it was your own imagination that created these ideas.
From what little I have read on the topic, harappa and what not, was a dravidian civilization, while majority of paksitanis are of the aryan/arab/persian/turkish races. Therefore, it would be as sensible for pakistanis to relate to this civilization as a turk to constantinople.
It has been proven that a large chunk of pakistanis, espescially in cities such as lahore, are not aboriginals and are infact of foreign descent. Please refer to this site:
'Only about 25 to 35% Muslims of northern India and Deccan are descendants of Hindu converts. ’
Why don’t you.
Identity is assumed through the father of the family. So even if the mughals had children from a hindu slave they raped, not married, or a hindu that converted to islam, the ethnicity of their progeny would still share the identity of their father. Also, it is recorded in many of the foreigners chronicles, even after many generations of intermarriage, that they clearly identified with their original ethnicity, not the aboriginal ones. Moreover, it is of interest to this topic for me to point out that it is customary within ashraf families to only marry within other ashraf families to preserve their own culture.
If you believe this to be ‘racist’, evil or many other emotional labels I’m confident you can create, let me just say that this practice is prevalent amongst the aboriginals of pakistan aswell. They too only marry inbetween their own cultures.
Only a knave fool would believe this. Pakistan had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the pagans of india.
Pakistanis are central asian, not south asian.
Well, that was a practical result of the civilizing mission.
One labels me jaahil but fails to realize that we are not discussing how to follow a religion, but the topic of muslims civilizing ‘indians’.
Pedigree, in this context, refers to someone who was able to administer the muslim empires of india, a characteristic woefully missing in the barbarian aboriginals of south asia.
When have I argued that ashraf or ajlaf are islamic terms? Would you please be kind of enough to point out such references by me? Myself, being a jaahil as you have pointed out, cannot recognize when I have hinted towards that!
This was not a hindu concept adopted by ignorant muslims. These are historical terms created to identify a distinct cultural group. Just as we have immigrants who today call themselves, british pakistani, british indonesian etc. in the past there existed ashraf who conquered/travelled to ‘india’ to civilize it.
The ones speaking of racism are projecting their own inferiority complex on to me, as I have never once mentioned anything in regards to superiority!
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
[quote=SyedAbduallah]
An islamic state.
I have not taken false pride in my ancestors, far from it actually. I was merely responding to the title of the the thread in the affirmative, that is, muslims did indeed bring civilization to ‘india’. Of course these muslims being ethnically non-aboriginal of pakistan is a historical fact. Therefore, it becomes salent to any reader that it was the arabs, persians and turks that civilized the ‘indians’.
Its quite easy infact, and can be represented easily.
Before Islam’s arrival:
India was a place where hindus burned their wives, practiced caste system, prayed to animal gods, had ugly architecture, had no system of efficient governance, no schools, no philosophies, no sense of national identity, would walk around naked as animals and no sense of morality.
After Islam’s arrival(which was spearheaded by arabs, persians and turks):
Women enjoyed their rights as prescribed by the creator, disgusting idols(look up lingam and yoni) were destroyed and in their place beautiful islamic structures were constructed, governments were established which followed the laws of the creator which establised a clear sense of right and wrong and hindus were told to put on cloth.
II guess so dont have any idea abt india.ALl u have written is complete Bull****
1) India was a place where hindus burned their wives.
It started only when mughul ruled india. they used to rape women who were unprotected( their husband has died in battle or something). So inorder to save their dignity and respect they started burning themselves with their husband’s deadbody. This practice was only dont be RAJPUTS and its not used anywhere.Hinduisum doesnt say anything about that.
2)had no system of efficient governance, no schools, no philosophies
get a life man. Taxila and nalanda are the two oldest universities of the world and i guess it was started before mughual ruled india.
3)would walk around naked as animals and no sense of morality.
India was the country which started using cotton for clothes Cotton - Wikipedia](Cotton - Wikipedia) do you have any link to support that or its all in ur crap mind.
Women enjoyed their rights as prescribed by the creator.
We have seen the rights of women in islamic rule of taliban. please provide the link through which we can distinguish rights of the women in india before mughals.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
lol so one is saying that muslims did everything good, and the other is saying is that muslims did everything bad...hmmm i'd rather not believe either of you...probably is sumwhere in the middle, yes muslims did contribute positively, on the other hand, there were bad muslims who also probably contributed to the negatives.
Re: Did Muslims and Islam bring civilisation to India?
Dear Syed Abdullah,
Who is the author of the history book you have read? In India any history book before it gets into schools is debated at length. A handful of politicians are trying to rewrite history but they won’t succeed. You can probably ask Pakistani embassy to buy a few books from India for your study.
Please see the following links to learn what is being taught Pakistan in the name of history : (One is by an Indian while other two are from Pakistanis themselves), They all convey the same thing..children in Pakistan are indeed brought up on hate material.
Conclusion from the last link:
The change in character of Pakistani education, and the rewriting of Pakistan’s history, coincide with the change in nature of the ruling elites and altered needs. The Westernised liberal elite, which had inherited political power from the British, had given to education a basically secular and modern character which might have eventually created a modern, secular-minded citizenry. But the self-seeking and opportunistic nature of this elite forced it progressively to abandon liberal values in the face of exigencies, political and economic. Discriminatory laws against non-Muslim minorities were passed, the feudal structure of rural society was left intact, and quality education was limited to a tiny minority. The ambient corruption in society gradually diffused into institutions which could have transformed and modernized Pakistani society. By the time of the 1977 army coup, liberalism was already moribund.
The recasting of Pakistani history is an attempt to fundamentally redefine Pakistan and Pakistani society and to endow the nation with a historic destiny. Islam is the integrative ideology, its enforcement a divine duty. Viewed from this angle, it becomes essential to project the movement for Pakistan as the movement for an Islamic state, the creation of which became a historic inevitability with the first Muslim invasion of the subcontinent. The revised history of Pakistan uses much the same idiom, and the same concepts of Islamic state and of politics in Islam, as the Jamaat-i-Islami. Its wholesale dissemination through educational institutions demonstrates both the influence of the Jamaat on education as well as the confluence of interests and philosophy of military rulers and the Jamaat.
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Write back after you have read these and learned to ask why why why ?
…90 % of the time i can tell difference between a paki and indian.
…yes we punjabi and sindis r same as north indians but they r a meniorty(10%) and culturally and racially they have more in commen with us then we have with indians .