Did matter always exist? a reply to PG

Assalam Alaikum

It is a clear Islamic idea that Allah (S.W.T.) has always existed.

It is also a clear Islamic idea that matter didn’t just suddenly appear out of nothing and that it was created by Allah (S.W.T.) But there are non-Muslims (namely socialists or communists whatever u want to call them) who claim that matter has always existed. In order for their claims to be considered true they would have to prove that matter is eternal. Which they can’t because it isn’t.

The simple fact being that anything that is eternal does not change and given the fact that the universe is under constant change and not at equilibrium therefore it is not eternal and therefore it has been created.

For example,

If we look at heat flow across the universe: When two bodies at different temperatures come together, heat transfers from the one at a higher temperature to the one at lower temperature, and given sufficient time, they both reach the same temperature - equilibrium. If the universe is eternal, all bodies throughout the universe should be at a constant temperature - we notice they are not, thus are not eternal
If the universe is eternal, all bodies throughout the universe should be at a constant temperature.

the big bang theory as presented by the koran:

"have not the believers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then unstitched them; and of water, fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?
and we set in the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and we set in it ravines to serve as ways that haply so, they may be guided.
and we set up heavens as a roof well-protected, yet still from our signs they are turning away.
It is he who created the night and day, the sun and the moon, each swimming in the sky."
( from chapter 21, the prophets.)

this verse:

1) presents the big bang theory much earlier than any scientists did.
2) tells us the exact way this universe was created.
3) tells us how life started from water.
4) tells us that the earth, the sun and the moon are stars roaming in the universe, much before galilio.
5) calls the earth "al-arz" thus revealing the earth is round, much before copernicus did that.

is there anyone who would still not believe?


So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

Mudasserji,
U dont seem to be well versed in physics, so why start this kind of a topic?
Not every physical system goes into equilibrium after infinite time, its only in the case of stable systems that what u said is applicable!! And our universe might well be an oscillatory or even unstable system,where mass and energy interact leading to big bangs followed by big crunches...
contact Ur nearest physics professor for confirmation!!

Socialists don't say anything whether matter was created (translated as 'big bang theory' in cosmology) or always existed (translated as 'steady state theory' in cosmology). They know that is in realm of physics and they let it that way. Even if question settles down in favour of big bang, that does not mean you need god to start it all.

Religious notion of all interfering god is even further questionable.

The question is if you need something like god to kick start the universe and does god keeps worrying about universe all along. Why should he care about planet earth which is one of a million billion billion planets in one of the medocre sized solar system and humans which are an insignificant part of life on earth. Humans just came in existance some years ago and will last less than cockroaches. Why should god care enough about them to answer prayers on grandma's health or cricket game or whatever, send prophets, send messages, reward good people by sending to heaven, punishing bad people by sending them hell. Why greedy, violent, jingoistic and selfish human being which have destroyed more species on earth than ever done by natural selection should be so near and dear to god who is supposed to be managing the business of billions of stars and planets.

Taking the overall perspective of what we know of the world today the whole notion of god does not seem to be necessary at all, religious notion of god being even more questionable.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited March 28, 1999).]

dear pg,

You are a fundamentalist with a top dressing of science. That is why you are the stupidest of conservatives and reactionists in politics and the most bigoted of obstructionists in science itself. You associate ideas not according to logic or verifiable exactitude, but according to your pleasure and interests. It is for this reason that your truths are nothing but prejudice.
my friend,
Reason transformed into prejudice is the worst form of prejudice, because reason is the only instrument for liberation from prejudice.

Taking the overall perspective of what we >know of the world today the whole notion of >god does not seem to be necessary at all

Rather than making such senseless statments, try to be rational. please read
1) newton
2) einstein
3) stephen hawking
4) abdus salam
and then find out where you stand as far as the modern cosmological and physical views are concerned. i, being the nephew and a student of abdus salam, have been with the players of the game. your statment can be considered a rather funny joke with them. please refrain from posting such goof statments in future.

for your other point,

"It is He who created the heavens and earth in six times, -and before that his throne was on water- , so that he may try you, which one of you is fairer in works."
( the koran verse 8, chapter 11, Hood. )

This gives a suitable, and much more belivable point of view on the creation of human beings, than the one presented by you. you infact do not have any idea what human beings were created, you believe that this life has no reason at all. this is the most stupid belief that could be. and then, in order to satisfy yourself, you would refuse to believe in any possible reason this life may have. this belief is unacceptable to common sense, that this life has no purpose at all. i found a possible purpose in the koran. if you present one contrary to it, i might think of believing in it if its logical, but you just refuse to believe this life has a purpose. Human beings, infact, are the centre-nerve of the story going on.. or rather, the story going on on THIS PLANET, this universe is vast and unknown , you and me have no right to make statments regarding other life.

you other questions:

1) Why should he care about planet earth which is one of a million billion billion planets in one of the medocre sized solar system and humans which are an insignificant part of life on earth.

ans) this is a stupid question, and is a result of lack of concentration and thinking on he topic being discussed. it is normally seen, and is a matter of common sense, that things are cared for by those who make them. thus no planet, howsoever small it may be, no creation, howsoever insignificant it may be, could be ignored by the creator. Had he not cared about something, he wouldnt have bothered to create it!

2) . Humans just came in existance some years ago and will last less than cockroaches. Why should god care enough about them to answer prayers on grandma's health or cricket game or whatever, send prophets, send messages, reward good people by sending to heaven, punishing bad people by sending them hell.

ans) this is another example of how you have just made up your mind not to think , and not to be rational, and in this effort , have ended up making a goof out of yourself. yes human beings were created just a little time ago, but this is not so for the universe. other things were there. however, once human beings finally evolved into a decent form, they were to be told of who created them. the reason of sending the first prophet, adam, is given by the koran to be the desire of having an assisstant from within the developing life on the planet earth. so god had to care about all he created, and if he hadnt been having time to care about human beings, he wouldnt have created them at all. now that he created them, and told them about himself, it is but natural for him to listen to their prayers, no matter how small and insignificant they are. who else would listen to them if not him? once he created a human race, he wont leave them alone in the hour of need.

3)Why greedy, violent, jingoistic and selfish human being which have destroyed more species on earth than ever done by natural selection should be so near and dear to god who is supposed to be managing the business of billions of stars and planets.

ans) common sense was enough to answer this question. but when someone decides not to believe in logic, then common sense alone is no help. although god is managing the business of billions of stars, he is onl doing it because he can! if he couldnt have managed to run the business of billions of stars and planets, he would have created them. is it not a matter of common sense that a creator can NOT create something which he cant handle? thus the very creation of human race, is a proof over the fact, that the creator had enough time and concentration to spare for them.

one thing you did not bother to answer is, how was a liar able to make those 5 predictions 1000 years before the rest of the world, when you say it was not god who told him! why have you ignored that point? possibly because you dont have any answer to it.

however, what you failed to notice is that the questions you posed above, can not, by any means, negate the presence of god. these questions were basically hurled in as a result of confusion. i thought very high of you, and have been greatly disappointed to see how you have made a goof out of yourself. thus if you dont believe in god, dont, but please keep in mind, "Reason transformed into prejudice is the worst form of prejudice, because reason is the only instrument for liberation from prejudice."