Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

I am no expert on Pak but when was the last time a totally free and fair democratic elections was held in Pak.

Talibanization of Pak (as we know it today) came into prominence mostly in the post-911 period.

Having said that, it is heartening to note that (from what I read) there appears to be not much sympathy among the Pak middle-class for the vigilantism of the kind by Red Mosque brigade.

But SDAL was referring to the highly vulnerable lower-class, uneducated and poverty stricken part of the population for whom radical Islam seems to hold the promise to make something of their otherwise redundant existence.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

:k:

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Very good question indeed and none of the members have given the right answer so far. Quaid-e-Azam was more or less secular person and he welcomed everyone in the Pakistan but if you ask elders in Pakistan, he was more inclined to Saudi style of Sharia court of law. Although he welcomed the minorities in Pakistan, he also wanted to make sure the laws of Pakistan are in accordance with Quran and Hadith. Quaid was also aware that althogh religion and state must remain to be separated, you can' really separate state completely from religion- you must be a good muslim in all aspects of life- siyasat, quam or whatever.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

can we pretty please have a source of this claim, excluding your elders? A reference from some book or his speeches/letters would be great.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

So,which "ulema" was a leader of All India Muslim league and at the forefront of Pakistan movement? Were madaris of Deoband, Jamiat Ulema Hind and Maududi for or against Pakistan and Jinnah?

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Look guys, we have been around this discussion a million times. Why don't we all ask ourselves "Do we want a Mullahtic state?

The answer is "Heck No!".

A bit of Jinnah's life:

Jinnah wined and dined with rich and famous of his day. He dated and married the most beautiful women of his day. He had lunch time meetings during Ramzan. He traveled in Rolls Royce Silver Ghost (market value $250K to half million dollars). He built and lived in the posh of the poshest mansions.

So if anything that we can learn from Jinnah is this. Be smart, honest, hard working, Western, and filthy rich. And that should the be the picture of Pakistan.

Pakistan in 2007 and beyond

Beyond that discussion on Jinnah and the 1940s era, we the current generation has to figure out how to get Pakistan from a teetering third worlder poor country all the way to a modern Western state. A state where rabid Mullahs only exist in the dungeons of the state prisons. A state where the rights of every citizen are protected. A state that is part of NATO, EU, and Asian tiger countries. A state that provides help (military or otherwise) to the poor Arab countries stricken with Jihadi terrorism. A state where sky is the limit when it comes to your ideas, and wealth. A state where you can live without fear from a beardo. A state that is respected all over the world for its style and fashion.

I hope ya'll got that.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

ehh??

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

No Mullah was at the forefront of the Pakistan movement; I don't think you read what I wrote. I don't understand the question.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

The point is that creation of Pakistan had nothing to do with "Ulema" and their stated goals. Jinnah was what would be considered "liberals" and "seculars" in todays Pakistan. Would he want a theocratic state when he was not part of theocracy and theocracy was infact against Jinnah? Jinnah's goal was a seperate state for indian muslims to protect them from hindu theocracy. In fact, he had envisioned a state with a significant hindu minority living in Pakistan with full rights of life and religion.
The current logic of many religious minded people goes like this. Pakistan was created for Islam. That means imposing Sharia laws as defined by the "Ulema". This is what they call "Islami Nizam". This puts the the "Ulema" as the most powerful lobby that defines and implement laws.
IMO this fallacy that Pakistan was created to implement Sharia Laws need to be refuted and the fact that Pakistan was created only as a muslim majority state need to be emphasized.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

What were their stated goals? At the time, The Religious parties advocated Muslims remaining a part of a united India.

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Jinnah was what would be considered "liberals" and "seculars" in todays Pakistan.

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A liberal who heavily played to the religious sentiment (and fears) of the Muslims.

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Would he want a theocratic state when he was not part of theocracy and theocracy was infact against Jinnah?

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Not wanting theocracy does not mean one wants secularism.

Perhaps we need to coin "Jinnahism" to describe what he wanted (but never found the need to express).

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Jinnah's goal was a seperate state for indian muslims to protect them from hindu theocracy.

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Hindus made it clear that they did not want a theocracy; and they never at any point had one after the creation of modern India.

Jinnah was fearful of Hindu domination, fearing it could spell the end of the Muslim community. There was no "secular Muslim" identity to defend at the time...what defined a Muslim was his faith, and his practice of it.

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IMO this fallacy that Pakistan was created to implement Sharia Laws need to be refuted and the fact that Pakistan was created only as a muslim majority state need to be emphasized.
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As was clear from the onset, Pakistan was not meant to contradict or throw out Shariah either. Again, the idea of a "Muslim majority" state as a secular entity is a very modern concept, and carried no meaning back in those days. A Muslim majority state was understood to necessarily be defined by (in some form) it's adherence to Islamic principles. It may not be a traditional Islamic state, but it was an Islamic state of some sort. Jinnah used those very terms to describe Pakistan. As an Islamic welfare state.

Yes, the reigns of power were not going to be blindly given over to the Ulema. But nor were ulema to be excluded.

Jinnah was NOT Attaturk, and keep in mind the two personally knew each other. It is not as if Jinnah was ignorant about secularism, or Kemalism. He personally rejected such principles, or at the very least cared not to publicly support them.

Jinnah may not have wanted a traditional Islamic state (e.g. Caliphate, Ottoman style), but there is NO evidence he fancied a secular state where Islam and state were firmly and forever separated.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

even if we make the leap of faith that he wanted an islamic state...he surely did not want the type that MMA types i.e. folks burnign KFCs want.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Perhaps the followers of "Ulema" can elaborate on their goals for opposing Pakistan. Their goal now is to impose Sharia Law as they define it.

More like a liberal that wanted to protect followers of one religion from the extremist religious element of another religion.


Call it what you will (since some people are allergic to term secularism), Jinnah wanted a state where any person can freely practice his or her religion regardless of the religion and one religion does not dominate another.


Jinnah wanted a seperate state for muslims because the extremist hinu element, not because he did not want to live in a secular state. His opposition to Congress was not because Congress was officially secular but because he considered Congress to be primarily a hindu party.

He could not have foreseen Sharia Law being implented. He would have been branded Kafir (wait, he already was) and would been found liable to Hadd (Capital punishment)


They were excluded from All India Muslim League automatically by difference in philosophy and motivation.

That I agree with. We should include Islamism (as we know it today) to the list.

But in Sharia, Caliphate is the only way of governing. Modern ideas like secularism, liberalism and democracy are against Sharia. We can certainly agree that Jinnah was for a democratic state?

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

U know what PPL who talk like u r called in Pakistan ? Qadiyani … so beware and don’t complaint u were not warned :hehe:

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Yes. However, that in no way justifies removing whatever elements of Pakistan’s legal code and consitution that are conformant to it. A system is in place. Some want to work within it, others outside of it. But from the earliest days, the system has been infused with Islam. If not by Jinnah, than certainly his close advisors.

Only to be subseuqnetly terrorized by a secular tyranny? That doesn’t make sense. If one wants to protect Islam, then one would think it would be so people could actually practice and implement it.

I don’t know about that. Pakistan was definitely created for the sake of the protection of Islam…that was the essence of the Pakistan movement. Jinnah was keen on placating the minorities. He certainly wanted them to stay. But in his mind, there was apparently no contradiction of minorities living as equal citizens in an Islamic state.

No, more than that. There was a fear that Islam was in danger. Not ‘Muslims’…Islam itself.

This is quite clear in the 1933 Pakistan Declaration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Now_or_Never%3B_Are_we_to_live_or_perish_forever%3F

According to Jinnah, Iqbal, and others…no, they weren’t.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

According to “Ulema” the legal code and constitution is not Islamic. Sharia is the only legal code and consititution that can be allowed in a true Islamic state like Pakistan, according to “Ulema”.

Secular Tyranny? Pakistan is one of the most Islamic country in the world! BTW what does it mean to protect Islam? If muslims are free and not under threat for their religion then Islam is not protected?

Again what does it mean to protect Islam? is this a euphimism for implementing Sharia Law? In Sharia Law, minorities are not equal citizens.

“Now or Never” was not the official Pakistan declaration. It was a pamphlet written by Chaudry Rehmat Ali. He himself was denied Pakistani passport and told to leave the country. He was one of the biggest critic of Jinnah. I would agree with you if the actual declaration of Pakistan from 23rd March had such wordings. That declaration was adopted officially by Muslim League.

Yes, but what do the “Ulema” says? according to the “Ulema” secularism, liberalism, and democracy are not Islamic and against Sharia. Their logic is that Sahaba did not practice democracy. The chose “Caliphat”. They say that “Did the Sahaba know better or the people who came up with the idea of democracy?”

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Well, that's good for the Ulema...but all and sundry can agree it is not Secular.

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Secular Tyranny? Pakistan is one of the most Islamic country in the world! BTW what does it mean to protect Islam? If muslims are free and not under threat for their religion then Islam is not protected?

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I'm confiused. Do you want Pakistan to be a seuclar state or not?

If Muslims are not allowed to practice Islam not only at a personal, but communal level...then no, they're not "free". If the state does not recognize Islam, then they are practically no different than minorities living in other states. If the state will use all force neccessary to keep Islam and state seperated (as Secularism mandates), then no, Muslims are not free.

Pakistan is NOT such a state. Nor did it's founders ever envision it to be that way.

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Again what does it mean to protect Islam? is this a euphimism for implementing Sharia Law? In Sharia Law, minorities are not equal citizens.

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Shrugs...you tell me. Certainly doesn't sound like a 'secular' regime to me. As for Shariah...Iqbal and co. certainly had their modernist take on it. All indications suggest that they were pro-some form of Islamic-derived law. As I said numerous times, they were not traditionalists. But they were by no means secularists.

What does that mean? In some *form, Islam would play a critical role in the state. Pakistan was, after all, meant to be an *Islamic welfare state (Jinnah's words, not mine).

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"Now or Never" was not the official Pakistan declaration. It was a pamphlet written by Chaudry Rehmat Ali.

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He *was *the one who conceived of Pakistan, and very much defined the mood and termpment of the movement.

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Yes, but what do the "Ulema" says? according to the "Ulema" secularism, liberalism, and democracy are not Islamic and against Sharia. Their logic is that Sahaba did not practice democracy. The chose "Caliphat". They say that "Did the Sahaba know better or the people who came up with the idea of democracy?"
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...Iqbal and co differed. That was the point. Ulema...pro-India. Remember? It was my understanding that we're talking about Pakistan...and if it was meant to be Islamic, or secular.

The most that could be said was that we had modernist Islamists at odds with traditionalists...but the idea of a Muslim state void of Islam is just pure nonsense.

Re: Did Jinnah mean to create a Islamic State?

Great. I guess you don't support these demands of imposition of Sharia by "Ulema".

Muslims are free to practice Islam freely at personal and community level in Pakistan. The "Ulema" still don't think it is a proper Islamic state and demand imposition of Sharia.

I guess we agree that Jinnah did not envision imposition of Sharia. We also agree that in Jinnah's idea of Pakistan muslims were religiously free as well as the minorities. I sense that you think that a secular state means a state where people are forbidden from any collective religiousoty a la France and Turkey. I agree that Jinnah probably did not want a state like Turkey which forces women to get rid of hijab. I contend that Jinnah did not want a state like Taliban's Afghanistan where people were forced to wear beared and burqa and forbidden from music and movies.

Another way to say the same thing will be that Jinnah was a moderate that was at odds with the conservative "Ulema". Isn't it sad then that the conservative "Ulema" have hijacked the conceptual basis of Pakistan saying Pakistan was created for Islam hence it needs Islami Nizam i.e. Sharia Law?