I did not want to further derail the discussion going on here so here is the response to one of the posts.
PakistaniAbroad: That’s what YOU think the Qur’an tells us.. a huge difference from what the Qur’an may actually say.. but no one can say for sure.. we all have our own interpretations.. but all I know is that a Prophet of Allah cannot have outrightly lied. Instead of explanations and excuses for his saying something like that I’d put more effort in trying to understand whether he did indeed say that or the Qur’an is actually telling us otherwise.
Now some of us may be carrying the yoke of traditions around their necks but Ibn-Khatir etc. could have been dead wrong.. and those who blindly followed the earlier understanding did a great disservice to the Qur’an and Islam by just accepting and propagating the established understanding without offering a fresh critical review.
A quick analysis of the verse in question reveals the misconception.
They said, Have you done this to our gods, Ibrahim?
PakistaniAbroad: Now this is a very straightforward question put right to Ibrahim. Ibrahim did indeed break the idols so if he outrightly denies breaking them himself he is indeed lying.
Let’s see if he did or didn’t.
{21:63} ÞóÇáó Èóáú ÝóÚóáóåõ ßóÈöíÑõåõãú åóÐóÇ ÝóÇÓúÃóáõæåõãú Åöä ßóÇäõæÇ íóäØöÞõæäó
ÞóÇáó - He said
Èóáú - rather, but, (preposition reversing the meaning.. please note it’s not exactly a ‘No’.. If Ibrahim had uttered a No .. right there and then he qualifies as a liar. But to make his point he diverted the disussion elsewhere.
ÝóÚóáóåõ - (someone or some doer) did it.. (Only Shakir gets it right in his translation).
The rest of it is straightforward. Interesting to note that there is a punctuation mark denoting a slight ‘pause’ after ÝóÚóáóåõ
[thumb=D]21_61-67.JPG[/thumb]
If the sentence is then read keeping in mind the intended pause (I know diacritical marks were inserted later but that’s another discussion) we understand the way Ibrahim must have uttered it, which is not a lie but a tactful response trying to make an important point to his audience.
there is no pause in it....
and the word "bal" is infact a negation....
although it means "but" it is used in negation so it is more appropriate to translate it to "no; but"....
for similar use of "bal see the following:
2:88
2:116
2:135
2:154
2:170
there are a lot many instances where u can site the real use of "bal" but i think this will suffice....
and instead of blaming great scholars like ibn-e-katheer and thinking they were wrong why dont u just correct ur own self....
u think when Ibrahim (as) said what he said it was a lie....
neither ibn-e-katheer nor those who read his works regard it as a lie....
for surely if u regard this as a lie, then u regard this as a lie too.... Quran 8:17 And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw....
for history tells us that it was indeed Muhammad (saw) who threw and was seen by many throwing what he threw....
but the deep rooted meaning, when perceived properly, makes us believe how accurate the statement is....
PS. also not the actual word which is to be translated as "BUT" from the verse 8:17....
armughal, are you saying that Prophet Ibraheem (may Peace be upon him) said "No, I didn't do it, ask the big statue", when infact he had done it? I doubt if such a great Prophet will say an outright lie, even to make a good point. Pls explain your thought process.
u think of ur own thought process....
he broke the idols, he kept the axe with the biggest of the idols, and when they asked him....
it was a straightforward question which needed a YES or a NO answer....
he replied with a negation saying that the biggest one has done it....
and even if u imagine the pause there (although none exists) still what sense does it make to say "someone did it" because even that has the same meaning of "i did not do it"....
the purpose of all this was to make them say it out by their own tongues that the "idols r not capable of doing ANYTHING"....
now consider the story of Yusuf (as) and his brother binyameen when his brothers came to take grain from him....
he hid the king's cup in his brother's bag and then had the announcement made for it being stolen and later it was produced from his brother's bag....
now consider the morality of this act!!!!
- he hid the cup in his brother's bag which might well have been stolen
- he let his brother be called a thief and held him as punishment knowing very well that he had not stolen
but Allah says: Quran 12:76 ....Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so)....
can we say that the Prophet of Allah cheated his brothers????
or is it just our though process that cannot go beyond the apparent meanings....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
there is no pause in it....
[/quote]
I have shown you that all Qur'ans have a "vow" why do you keep insisting there isn't one at all?
[quote]
he replied with a negation saying that the biggest one has done it....
[/quote]
As we've seen in the translation presented in my post.. Ibrahim never said "The bigger one has done it".
[quote]
and the word "bal" is infact a negation....
[/quote]
It doesn't necessarily.. Ok.. try this for size:
[4:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so ** and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, **and they killed him not for sure.
u still have it wrong…
the yusuf (as) incident was not a separate issue…
it was the same one…
i will help u by posting it again…
Quran 12:76*
…Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so)…*
these r the ways according to which Allah plans for the people…
Ibrahim (as) did not lie because he wanted to save himself from punishment or anything…
this was how Allah planned it…
this is how Allah wanted Ibrahim (as) to make his people see the truth…
but yes, some only see the lie, others see the truth hiding in wise words…
and the verse u have posted regarding Jesus (as), also further shows my point…
again “bal” is used to negate the view of the jews (that they killed Jesus) and Allah stating that “no (they killed him not) but Allah raised him high towards Himself”…
read the verse u posted again and u will see the use of “bal” as a negation…
now coming to the “vow” under the “ha” in the “fa’alahu” that u talk about again and again…
the “vow” under tha “ha” means that this “ha” is called “ha kinaaya”…
so what does “ha kinaya” do???
it points to the object mentioned after the word with the “ha kinaya”…
and hence it means that u must enlongate the “hoo” to TWO "mad"s…
if it were “ha” as in the verse earlier “yuwa llahu ibrahim” there the “vow” on the “ha” is different and has FOUR "mad"s enlongation…
u surely have been missing out a lot on tajweed lessons, as much as u have on arabic lessons… :nono:
^
if u r referring to the BIGGEST among them as Allah, then it wud be a wrong interpretation cuz Allah is not amongst them (i.e. th false gods)....
and when Ibrahim (as) said "the bigeest among them, this" he was definitely pointing towards the biggest of the idols....
we all know that when we say "this", we point to something....
so he did mean the biggest of the idols....
Note: a mother thinks her child did something wrong....
she asks the child, the child says "no"....
the mother says "yes u did, i saw u doing it"....
she lies....
why????
to make sure....
maybe the child will confess under such a situation....
and if the child still refuses the mother can be sure the child is innocent....
now do we consider this as a lie from the mother????
will any worldly court see it as a lie????
will any divine court see it as a lie????
i dont think so....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
u missed the whole point....
[/QUOTE]
Yeah,
Your right. I sure did.
I don't know Qur'an.
Originally I thought the story was referring to the bibblical story of Joseph that was left for dead by his brothers in a well? (I think) because his brothers were jealous of him?
Then the biggest among them got stuck in my lame brain...and I was thinking of Jesus because often in my religion he is referred a largest among men..
Also...My lame brain was reading (yusaf) as Jesus rather than Joseph.
Really need to educate myself on the Aramic, Hebrew, Arabic, Qu'ranic,
words.
Please forgive these poor excuses for my stupidity!
Anyway..definately made no sensible posts regarding the posted subject.
Please consider my posts as a case of AAG incoherent babble.