Devil's Throne

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

As I was enjoying myself a few marshmallows with my friends by the fireplace. We started talking about jahanum (hell) cuz the wood crackling and fire sparked that discussion.

It varied from the deviant jinns will be used as firewood for hell to the layer of Lucifer in the sea!! That was a new one for me. I find it hard to swallow that Shaytaan’s throne is in the sea and when I asked the guy where did he come up with this, he said the Quran. I still don’t believe him cuz its said the shayateen live in napaak places.

Ok, someone please follow up on this for me :confused:

2

Perhaps they had in mind hadith from Sahih Muslim and other collections...

Allah's Messenger (s) said: "The throne of Iblis (Satan) is upon the ocean and he sends detachments in order to put people to trial and the most important figure in his eyes is the one who is most notorious in sowing the seed of dissension." (Muslim #6754)

Also, Allah's Messenger (s) said to Ibn Sayyad: "You see the throne of Iblis upon the water..." (Muslim #6992)

Maybe Iblis was seeking to mimic the verse:

{He (Allah) it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters...} (11:7)

And Allah knows best.

Iqbal

3

jazak Allah brother Iqbal, very informative....

4

just to add that it is gaurded by very big snakes...

5

Jazak'Allah khair for your responses.

For both thrones there are characteristics (i.e. what fasal mentioned) can someone go in depth on them.

6

Is this the place that Satan lives and work from (according to the Qu'ran)?

7

Anyone?

8

The Old Man, trust the Qur'an to stay away from frivilous discourse.

God is infinite in space and time hence it's clear that His 'throne' has a purely metaphorical connotation as used in 11:7.

also take a look at:

[7:54] Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) ......

According to noted Qur'an scholar Muhammad Asad:

"all Muslim scholars, classical and modern are unanimously of the opinion that it's metaphorical use in the Qur'an is meant to express God's absolute sway over all His creation."

9

^
and what happened to your statements of always ignoring the writings within the parethesis....
or do u have selectivity when it comes to Quran????

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

According to noted Qur'an scholar Muhammad Asad:

"*all Muslim scholars, classical and modern are unanimously of the opinion... *"
[/QUOTE]

An exaggeration if ever there was one!

By the way armughal, good point. Here's something interesting:

"Now take a copy of the Qur'an and read the subject verses minus the interpretor's own words in brackets. Read what Allah sent down.. not what some human being inserted without fear of retribution by the Almighty for changing His word."

I wonder who said that? Like to hazard a guess PA? :)

Iqbal

11

:hehe: is that all you guys got left???

Here’s the translation from the interpretor I usually quote:

[Shakir 7:54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; …

PakistaniAbroad: I used Yusufali just so you don’t gang up crying foul… obviously didn’t work :smiley:

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Here's the translation from the interpretor I usually quote:

[Shakir 7:54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; ....

[/QUOTE]

now any person well acknowledged with arabic language can tell u that this translation is not correct....

just for a hint try explaining how this guy tranlated thumma in this verse????

13

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
now any person well acknowledged with arabic language can tell u that this translation is not correct..

just for a hint try explaining how this guy tranlated thumma in this verse????
[/QUOTE]

well just like Yusufali did.

thumma doesn't always denote order in time in the Qur'an. It's meaning is often translated as and; Yusufali goes as far as translating it as:

[Yusufali 2:29] It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; (thumma) Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge

14

This seriously blows…

I really was inquiring about the thrones of both Divine and Devil yet here we are :grumpy:

thank you for living up to the reputation of religion forum! :mad:

15

Shayateen having a throne?

16

Quran20:1-5
Ta Ha.
We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress
But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah)
A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high.
*(Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).***

and how do u explain this????

and how do u explain alaa which means over or on????
or does that too have some other meanings that arabs dint yet understand....

17

The inconsistency in Shakir’s translation starts to show when he meets verses like 85:15 which, although it too mentions the Throne (al-Arsh), he simply leaves untranslated: “Lord of the Arsh”

Also look at 39:75: “And you shall see the angels going round about the throne glorifying the praise of their Lord”

I’m not sure what he’s trying to get across with 69:17 or even 32:4.

CocoNut, to come back to your original question. There’s very little description of Allah’s Throne in the Qur’an itself other than the fact that eight angels will bear it on the Day of Judgement and that angels sing Allah’s praises around it. Refer to some of the verses i’ve just mentioned above. In hadith, Allah’s Throne is described as having pillars and casting a shadow, so in that sense it’s a real and physical structure. I haven’t seen any description of Satan’s throne as yet.

As an aside, here’s something to chew over for those interested in reading about the paranormal. With Satan’s throne being located over the sea, there are two prime sites that immediately spring to mind and have undoubtedly been considered in the past as areas of devilish activity by people of various denominations. The first is the well known Bermuda Triangle region (also, incidentally, known as the Devil’s Triangle) and the other is an area off the east coast of Japan suitably called the Devil’s Sea which is also said to exhibit characteristics similar to those that some attribute to the Bermuda Triangle. Of course, all this is pure theory but anyone who has an interest in that kind of thing might want to look into it further.

Allah knows best.

Iqbal

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *

I'm not sure what he's trying to get across with 69:17 or even 32:4
[/quote]

69:17 again shows that interpreting throne as some physical 'bed' or 'place of resting' goes against the general belief of God transcending time and space.

It's better translated as:

[Shakir 69:17] And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and above them eight shall bear on that day your Lord's power.

PakistaniAbroad: I believe it suggests that on the day the Great Event comes to pass and the skies are cleft asunder, eight angels will 'carry' or 'bear the burden' of some of Allah's powers.

As for 32:4, Yusufali also translates it as 'throne of authority' so why pick on Shakir alone?

and CocoNut, i'm sure u're happy now to hear cockamayme theories about Bermuda Triangles and the sort being Devil's refuge.... maybe in your opinon, that's the kind of 'information' the Religion Forum should really be about.

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

**It's better translated as:

[Shakir 69:17] And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and above them eight shall bear on that day your Lord's power.**
[/quote]

This is not a "translation" as you seem to suggest, Shakir has in fact "interpreted" the verse and offers the reader his own understanding. In short, he tells us not what the verse says but what he thinks it means. Actually, he does so with almost all the verses presently under discussion. The fact that Shakir's interpretation doesn't appear in brackets makes little difference. It still flies in the face of your own rule that one should: "read the subject verses minus the interpretor's own words." Doesn't it?

In any case, compared to some other translations i have, Shakir is on his own with this one:

(Yusuf Ali): "and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them."

(Pickthal): "and eight will uphold the Throne of thy Lord that day, above them."

(Khan & Hilali): "and eight angels will, that Day, bear the Throne of your Lord above them."

(N. J. Dawood): "eight of them carrying the throne of your Lord above their heads."

[quote]
PakistaniAbroad: I believe it suggests that on the day the Great Event comes to pass and the skies are cleft asunder, eight angels will 'carry' or 'bear the burden' of some of Allah's powers.
[/quote]

Yes, you've followed Shakir's "interpretation". But it doesn't really make sense in view of the words "above them" in the verse. Do you understand the same from 40:7?

[quote]
As for 32:4, Yusufali also translates it as 'throne of authority' so why pick on Shakir alone?
[/quote]

Point missed. Shakir reads: "and He mounted the throne (of authority)" (similarly, Pickthal). What, if anything, are we to understand from "mounted"? And whilst Pickthal is consistent in his rendition of this term, Shakir yet again translates it haphazardly, more often than not just leaving it out altogether.

You didn't comment on 85:15 and 39:75; the first two verses i quoted. They represent further examples of Shakir's inconsistent handling of these verses.

[quote]
and CocoNut, i'm sure u're happy now to hear cockamayme theories about Bermuda Triangles and the sort being Devil's refuge.... maybe in your opinon, that's the kind of 'information' the Religion Forum should really be about.
[/QUOTE]

Your frustration is beginning to show through in your writing.

Iqbal

20

PA: no that not my opinion but thank you for living it up to assumptions.