Details of U.S. victory (in Afghanistan) are a little premature

What has US achieved in Afghanistan so far, besides bombing the crap out of the country, installing a CIA asset as its ruler, collateral damage, friendly fires on allies like Canadians, and giving a silent nod of approval to rejuvenated drug trafficking? All at the expense of billions of dollars of taxpayers money.
“We will smoke em out of their caves” must now be changed to “We will smoke hash with em in the caves” :wink:

**Details of U.S. victory are a little premature **

December 22, 2002

By ERIC MARGOLIS – Contributing Foreign Editor

On the frigid night of Dec. 24, 1979, Soviet airborne forces seized Kabul airport. Elite Alpha Group commandos sped to the presidential palace, burst into the bedroom of Afghan President Hafizullah Amin and gunned him down. Columns of Soviet armour crossed the border and raced south toward Kabul.

It took Soviet forces only a few days to occupy Afghanistan. They installed a puppet ruler, Babrak Karmal. Moscow proclaimed it had invaded Afghanistan to “liberate” it from “feudalism and Islamic extremism” and “nests of terrorists and bandits.”

Soviet propaganda churned out films of Red Army soldiers playing with children, building schools, dispensing medical care. Afghan women were to be liberated from the veil and other backward Islamic customs. The Soviet Union and its local communist allies would bring Afghanistan into the 20th century.

Two years later, Afghans had risen against their Soviet “liberators” and were waging a low-intensity guerrilla war. Unable to control the countryside, Moscow poured more troops into Afghanistan. The Soviet-run Afghan Army had poor morale and less fighting zeal. The KGB-run Afghan secret police, KhAD, jailed and savagely tortured tens of thousands of “Islamic terrorists,” then called “freedom fighters” in the West.

Fast forward to December, 2002, and a disturbing sense of deja vu. A new foreign army has easily occupied Afghanistan, overthrown the “feudal” Taliban government and installed a puppet regime in Kabul. Western media churn out the same rosy, agitprop stories the Soviets did about liberating Afghanistan, freeing women, educating children. The only real difference is that kids in today’s TV clips are waving American instead of Soviet flags. The invaders have changed; the propaganda remains the same.

America’s invasion of Afghanistan in October, 2001, was billed as an epic military victory and the model of future imperial expeditions to pacify Third World malefactors. Since then, news about this war-ravaged land has grown scarce. America’s limited attention has turned elsewhere.

Afghanistan in chaos

In fact, America’s Afghan adventure has gotten off to as poor a start as that of the Soviet Union. The U.S.-installed ruler of Kabul, veteran CIA asset Hamid Karzai, must be protected from his own people by up to 200 U.S. bodyguards. Much of Afghanistan is in chaos, fought over by feuding warlords and drug barons.

There are almost daily attacks on U.S. occupation forces. My old mujahedin sources say U.S. casualties and equipment losses in Afghanistan are far higher than Washington is reporting - and are rising.

American troops are operating from the old Soviet bases at Bagram and Shindand, retaliating, like the Soviets, against mujahedin attacks on U.S. forces by heavily bombing nearby villages. The CIA is trying to assassinate Afghan nationalist leaders opposed to the Karzai regime in Kabul, in particular my old acquaintance Gulbadin Hekmatyar.

North of the Hindu Kush mountains, America’s Afghan ally, the Tajik-Uzbek Northern Alliance, has long been a proxy of the Russians. The chief of the Russian general staff and head of intelligence directed the Alliance in its final attack on the Taliban last fall. Russia then supplied Alliance forces with $100 million in arms, and is providing $85 million worth of helicopters, tanks, artillery and spare parts, as well as military advisors and technicians. Russia now dominates much of northern Afghanistan.

The Taliban, according to the United Nations drug agency, had almost shut down opium-morphine-heroin production. America’s ally, the Northern Alliance, has revived the illicit trade. Since the U.S. overthrew the Taliban, opium cultivation has soared from 185 tons a year to 2,700. The Northern Alliance, which dominates the Kabul regime, finances its arms-buying and field operations with drug money. President George Bush’s war on drugs collided with his war on terrorism - and lost. The U.S. is now, in effect, colluding in the heroin trade.

Anti-American Afghan forces - the Taliban, al-Qaida, and others - have regrouped and are mounting ever larger attacks on U.S. troops and, reports the UN, even reopening training camps. Taliban mujahedin are using the same sophisticated early alert system they developed to monitor Soviet forces in the 1980s to warn of American search-and-destroy missions before they leave base. As a result, U.S. troops keep chasing shadows. Canadians fared no better.

In the sole major battle since the Taliban’s overthrow, Operation Anaconda, U.S. forces were bested by veteran Afghan mujahedin, losing two helicopters.

The ongoing cost of Afghan operations is a closely guarded secret. Earlier this year, the cost of stationing 8,000 American troops, backed by warplanes and naval units, was estimated at $5 billion US monthly!

The CIA spends millions every month to bribe Pushtun warlords.

Costs will rise as the U.S. expands bases in Afghanistan and neighbouring Pakistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan and Uzbekistan - all placed along the planned U.S.-owned pipeline that will bring Central Asian oil south through Afghanistan.

The UN reports the Taliban and al-Qaida on the offensive, Afghan women remain veiled and the country is in a dangerous mess. Declaring victory in Afghanistan may have been premature.

In the sole major battle since the Taliban’s overthrow, Operation Anaconda, U.S. forces were bested by veteran Afghan mujahedin, losing two helicopters.

Yes, I saw a programme on this Operation Anaconda on the BBC the other week. How it was the only real offesive battle the American forces had launched in Afghanistan, and how it had failed so badly, becuase they had been betrayed by the Afghan warlords they had been bribing to help them. Afghanistan is a bigger mess than it was a year ago, and the Americans are now increasingly in the position the Russians were. Cosmemtically it may look good, but they are stuck in an unwinnable qugamire.

God bless the great Pashtun people. :k:

Malik, so you think the idea was basically to park the military in strategic places in Afghanistan, bribe the warlords, install a puppet there so that the proposed pipeline plan can go ahead? I see a similar doctrine to be applied for Iraq as well. In the end the greed for the oil will decide fates of many innocents.

Any victory or defeat will not be for the US, but for the Afghans themselves. War is a way of life for Afghans. It's like a child raised in the ghettoes of Chicago who knows nothing but a life of violence and crime. He has no sense of family or community and leads a false existence of dysfunctional relations in gangs and revolts against the powers of the state. There, and among some Afghans, there are those who want to end the cycle of violence and squalor and build a better world. But they are in a minority and have the cards stacked high against them.

Let us hope that the "great Pashtun people" - with their grand traditions of political murder, violent tribalism, rivalry, medieval fundamentalism and warfare - do not once again fall into the trap of promises of security and "true Islam" by ignorant warlords. The religous extremism that was the Taliban needs to be wiped from the planet.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole:

Any victory or defeat will not be for the US, but for the Afghans themselves.
[/QUOTE]

So you are really admitting that after 14 months of bombing Afghanistan, the US has still not achieved a victory? Just what the American writer of this article was saying...

A victory would be for the Afghan people to have some semblence of normal lives after decades of non-stop war and 10 years of oppressive, brutal Pashtun rule.
A victory would include the establishment of democratic principles for a future multi-ethnic, representative government.
A victory would have education for all (including woman and ignorant fundamentalists).
A victory would mean no more interference from ISI, Russia, relgious extremists, India or US.
A victory will bring peace, prosperity, commerce, housing, food, tolerance and stability.
A victory for the Afghan people is not the defeat of the United States. The only people for which that is a victory are those who have an unquenchable desire to see the US fail to satisfy their own feelings of insecurity and inferiority.

Very well said Seminole. In addition, a victory for Afghanistan will also mean some stability for Pakistan, where most of those idiots have take refuge.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
A victory would be for the Afghan people to have some semblence of normal lives after decades of non-stop war and 10 years of oppressive, brutal Pashtun rule.
A victory would include the establishment of democratic principles for a future multi-ethnic, representative government.
A victory would have education for all (including woman and ignorant fundamentalists).
A victory would mean no more interference from ISI, Russia, relgious extremists, India or US.
A victory will bring peace, prosperity, commerce, housing, food, tolerance and stability.
A victory for the Afghan people is not the defeat of the United States. The only people for which that is a victory are those who have an unquenchable desire to see the US fail to satisfy their own feelings of insecurity and inferiority.
[/QUOTE]

It sounds like Utopia, but as Malik asked when will the US achieve this victory for the Afghans and more importantly how?

Yes, I notice you say could, but not has. So far upto date the lack of any American victory has brought things like the following:-

US rapped for backing warlord](BBC NEWS | South Asia | US rapped for backing warlord)

** A 1400% increase in Poppy production**](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=336722)

At least 3,600 Afghan civilians are believed to have been killed since the conflict began a year ago - More than those killed at the WTC](The Observer)

US Afghan ally ‘tortured witnesses to his war crimes’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,842082,00.html)

Human Rights Watch says it has evidence of mounting abuses, harassment and restrictions of women’s rights](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2582051.stm)

Those are just some facts, not mere statements, such as we have heard for last 14 months.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *
It sounds like Utopia, but as Malik asked when will the US achieve this victory for the Afghans and more importantly how?
[/QUOTE]
After centuries of war, poverty, instablity, fundamentalism, bribery, thievery, and tribalism - you expect the US to "fix it" in 14 months? US is a superpower, but not in the literal sense. US has no magical powers to fix this mess, but they are doing something.

Again, any "defeat" of the US in Afghanistan will also be a defeat for the people of Afghanistan. The only victors will be the madrassah-trained holy warriors (including Mullah Omar and his Pashtun henchman) and the anti-US zealots who have a hard on to see the US lose something.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole:

*After centuries of war, poverty, instablity, fundamentalism, bribery, thievery, and tribalism - you expect the US to "fix it" in 14 months? *
[/QUOTE]

Well we don't expect the US to encourage/finance and support some of these actions, as it has been in the last 14 months. Please explain your governments support for genocidal Afghan warlords like Abdul Rashid Dostum and Ismail Khan, whose crimes even outdo what you claim the Taliban had committed?

And what about killing more Afghan civilians than those killed in the WTC attacks?

It’s not the Pashtun people alone:

Hikmatyar seeks friends support for heightened war

Former Prime Minister and Afghanistan’s mujahid leader Gulbuddin Hikmatyar Wednesday sent a pushto-language message to his followers and friends asking them come along him in his fresh call for jihad against the western coalition forces operating in Afghanistan

PakistaniAbroad, Hekmatyar is as your news article says a Kharotay Ghilzay Pashtun. But it is true some non-Pashtuns groups are also very resentful at the Tajik-dominated Afghan government i.e. like the Shia Hazara's.

Hikmatyar finds support from Iran and hence his call out specifically to 'Pashtuns' since the Hazaris are already with him.

America doing it for the people of afghanistan

give me a break please someone pass the sick bucket america is bombing an occupying other peoples land for its own intrests if this is about human rights and poeples lives.

Then why was thousands killed in there homes by indiscriminate America bombing

Why is'nt america bombing the crap out of israel and india it breaks hundreds of UN laws

I tell you why self intrest and benefit!

these people who come here defending america like it some saviour and whiter than white need some reality checking!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Hikmatyar finds support from Iran and hence his call out specifically to 'Pashtuns' since the Hazaris are already with him.
[/QUOTE]

Then that is one more example of Shia Iran working with Sunni forces to further wider Muslim interests, belying the propoganda put about by the states and others.

The American military establishment in Afghanistan can start by controlling the warlords who are terrorizing the daily livelihood of the people there. According to the following article from LA Times warlords are collecting tens of millions of dollars in taxes and import duties at the country’s principal ports of entry, money the government desperately needs to finance its budget. The Afghan government estimates that the warlords’ take this year ran as high as $300 million.

**In Afghanistan, Guns Hold Sway Over Law **

Despite a pro-Western government in place of the Taliban, warlords and their minions continue to control much of the country.
A new pro-Western government led by President Hamid Karzai has replaced the Taliban regime that was ousted more than a year ago, but much of the country remains a lawless place where “anyone with a gun is the government,” as one youth here put it.
..
rest in article

It seems so indeed. And here is more proof…

Tribesmen Take Up Arms to Resist Afghan Drug War

Authorities were forced to stop destruction of opium poppy fields in parts of an eastern Afghan province after tribesmen took up arms to resist the move, residents said Sunday. They said tribesmen in Shinwar, Khogyani and Achin districts of Nangarhar province opened fire when anti-drug enforcers from the provincial government showed up Saturday and an unidentified person was wounded in Achin. Production of opium, which is used to make heroin exported to Europe and the United States, has soared to near record levels in Afghanistan since the fall of the fundamentalist Taliban regime last year.

Noor Rahman, a native of Khogyani, said tribesmen had vowed to resist future eradication efforts with force. The tribesmen used loudspeakers to call on people to come out of their houses to resist the plan," he told Reuters. “Government troops have been forced to leave the area.” Saifour Rahman, from Shinwar, said the tribesmen there had also vowed armed resistance, saying the government had failed to provide alternatives to opium growing. The Taliban succeeded in implementing a near total ban on production, but this collapsed after its overthrow. The United Nations has forecast Afghanistan’s opium production will reach a near record 3,400 tons this year, making it the world’s biggest producer once more. More than a third of Afghanistan’s drugs come from Nangahar, which border’s Pakistan’s tribal belt. Authorities in the provincial capital Jalalabad said the tribal resistance was only a temporary problem.

“People can’t stop this effort,” Jalalabad governor Haji Deen Mohammad said in reaction to the events. However, it appeared a setback for President Hamid Karzai’s government, which is under pressure from its Western backers to halt opium cultivation. Karzai ordered a ban on drugs production when he came to power and promised farmers $350 for each acre of poppies destroyed. But many farmers complain they have yet to see any compensation and have flouted the ban. In the spring, several dozen opium farmers were killed in a battle with government forces in the southern province of Helmand. Diplomats say current erradication efforts may achieve little since poppies plowed up so soon after planting have time to grow again. They say farmers in debt to moneylenders often find they have no choice but to grow opium, sometimes at the behest of powerful local figures who profit most from the trade.

Well said Seminole.

It is not up to the US to IMPOSE peace, stability and a representative government upon the Afghans. It is up to the Afghans themselves to do that. The US, the UN and the world community can and should provide as much support as possible to give the Afghans a shot at doing so.

Given that Afghanistan was already a country reduced to rubble by decades of warfare and that it has been less than a year since the US military objective of deposing the Taliban regime and dismantling terrorist training centers was met, it sounds as if the TV generation that expects all conflicts to be resolved within two hours of prime time is getting a little antsy. Perhaps we should resurrect Barbara Eden in her role of Jeannie and let her whip up a little spell to make things all right.

Her belly button did look awfully cute in those clothes!!!!

The only loser in this Afghanistan deal has been the ISI of Pakistan. Afghans are doing a million times better than when they have the Taliban. God bless the Unites States for cleaning the mess up left behind.