Dear lajawab,
Thank you for your reply but the question is, are people who do not have faith in hadith committing kufr? If yes, what is the proof?
Regards and all the best.
First tell me if you know the meaning of “Kufr” and “Kafir” then I will answer you in the context :k:
Dear Anwaar Qureshi,
greetings and thank you for your reply. Yes, I do know what word kufr means and what word kaafir means. However, I am interested in the sense it is used to define creedal boundary in islamic faith as used by our friend mr armughal. His view is that those who reject hadith are kafirs=infidels as I understood it. I am seeking evidence to see if anyone has ever been declared a kafir for rejecting hadith by muslim ulema. So you too are welcome to explain what you think the status of such people is as reject hadith ie are the quran only muslims kafir in your view as well or do you hold a different view? If so what? Thanks.
Regards and all the best.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MMughal: *
Dear Anwaar Qureshi,
greetings and thank you for your reply. Yes, I do know what word kufr means and what word kaafir means. However, I am interested in the sense it is used to define creedal boundary in islamic faith as used by our friend mr armughal. His view is that those who reject hadith are kafirs=infidels as I understood it. I am seeking evidence to see if anyone has ever been declared a kafir for rejecting hadith by muslim ulema. So you too are welcome to explain what you think the status of such people is as reject hadith ie are the quran only muslims kafir in your view as well or do you hold a different view? If so what? Thanks.
Regards and all the best.
[/QUOTE]
Infidel is not the meaning of Kafir. Very bad translation as Jihad to holy War.
Kafir in arabic means, one who hides some thing and it was used for farmers who hides seeds in the land.
So as one who hides the truth when reached to his heart by denying it is a kafir hence by this very definition, one who denies hadith hides a truth to his heart.
the question is why one should reject a hadees ?
those 7 books are autenticated and were written after a great research. those were scholars of Islam and no scholar has any question or doubt about those books. are we more scholar than them to reject ?
its an excuse for not to eccept what we think is not right for us. if we don't trust on any hadees then do not trust the whole book. whats the guaranty other are authentic then ?
people want llame excuses only just by saying its zaieef hadees. there are no doubt but those pointed as zaieef by scholars.
Dear Anwaar Qureshi,
Thank you for explanation but word has a variety of meanings including the ones you have explained. As you would know that Arabic is such a language that has many words for the very same thing as well as the very same word for very many uses. In other words it is a most confusing language, for anything could be led to mean anything. This does not mean other languages are perfect but that is the nature of human languages. No human language is perfect and that includes Arabic.
Kaafir=infidel, disbeliever, unbeliever, faithless, a person who is a nonmuslim or is excluded from the fold of islam, ungrateful, some one who changes one thing with another, one who hides something etc etc etc.
However, all this is besides the point. The point is, are the rejecters of hadith kufaar in the sense that they have gone out of the fold of islam? The answer has to be either they are or they are not. If they are then they are no longer muslims and their faith in the quran matters not as far as other muslims are concerned. If they are, the hadith is not that important that one who rejects it could be delared a kafir. As far as I am aware the rejecters of hadith have been called as such and not kufaar.
Regards and all the best.
Can s'one provide a summarised version. : )
Just so I may be the devil's advocate.
Two hundred years after the prophet's death some figures assemble a book. You say each of these is infallible to the extent that every hadith is as important as the other.
correct?
ASLAMUALIKUM,
JUST TO BACK UP BROTHERS LIKE ANWAAR, LAEEQ, STUPIDIDIOT, PD, and sister SAdiyah and others who seek the truth HERE IS AN INTERESTING ARTICLE ABOUT “THE SUBMITTERS” (rashid khalifa’s followers)
The International Community of Submitters
The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah. This claim in itself is sufficient to remove the Submitters from Islam as the Qur’an states (translation):
“O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets. And Allah is aware of everything.” (33:40)
The true Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, observed:
“The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.” (Sahih Bukhari)
Much of Rashad Khalifa’s misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur’an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19. He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur’an because according to him “the word God' ... is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word God’ occurs is … 19x6217 … If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears.” By rejecting a single verse of the Qur’an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,
… Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom … (2:85)
It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur’an
They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)
The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:
Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam
With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being “Muslim”. The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,
**Narrated AbuRafi’: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden * and saying: ‘We do not know. What we found in Allah’s Book * we have followed.’” Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud **
taken from:
CLICK HERE
more to come soon…inshALLAH so keep ur eyes open FOLKS**
Dear hilal k,
The submitters do not disbelieve in islamic duties but like other muslim groups interpret them within the quranic only context as they see it.
Their idea is that the quran is complete within itself and needs no help or explanation beyond itself. Therefore the word slah for example means whatever can be supported from within the quranic text and context as they see it. They do not deny slah but interpret it differently and so they perform it as the quran dictates. Their idea is same regarding the performance of the rest of islamic duties as far as I understand it.
They think the muslim masses have diviated from the true path of islam ie the quran and have invented hadith and fiqh to suit themselves. The rituals and practices found amongst majority of muslims are thought by them as inventions against islam etc etc.
The best way to understand submitters point of view is to visit their sites and forums. BTW, I have stated here what I understand about the submitters and not in their defence or right and wrong.
regards and all the best.
If Allah orders us many, many times in the Qur'an to obey the Prophet (saw) we can't do this unless we know exactly what he said and did.
And how do you know EXACTLY what he said and did since the hadith were not compiled until many years after his death? Doesn't one of the 'accepted' hadith state that Muhammed prohibited the writing down of his words outside of the Quran? This tradition was followed for several generations before the hadiths were compiled, so how can one know EXACTLY what he said and did?
If the perfect god sent the perfect prophet the perfect book, why does he require his people to sift through hundreds of thousands of words (some admittedly false, in a language that is hard to translate with only a small number of speakers) to determine what is authentic?
Isn't the Quran complete?
*"Shall I seek OTHER THAN THE GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ....The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of The God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think." (Quran, 6:114-116)
"And We have sent down the Book to you as a CLARITY FOR EVERYTHING, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who Submit." (Quran 16:89) *
When putting (alleged) words by Muhammed on par with those of God, isn't that shirk?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Doesn't one of the 'accepted' hadith state that Muhammed prohibited the writing down of his words outside of the Quran? This tradition was followed for several generations before the hadiths were compiled, so how can one know EXACTLY what he said and did?
[/quote]
LOL!! Using a hadith to show that hadith shouldn't be followed! You want to have your cake and eat it! LOL!!
The Prophet (saw) was the "explainer" of the Qur'an. Where is his explanation?
I wouldn't answer a Frenchman in Greek either.
Perhaps, after Muhammed, followers found that all areas of jurisprudence were not covered in the Quran, and felt the need to expand God's word to have the complete handbook of all areas of life in detail, instead of leaving us to have the individuality that he desired. But God made clear in the Quran that it is fully detailed and the only source of law? It did not say that Muhammed was the source of law. The Quran is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate his words.
Followers started to interpret verses of the Quran that speak of 'following the messenger' to include every single facet of his life, which surely God did not intend as Muhammed (like all men) was not perfect.
Okay, so you've given up on your "accepted hadith" argument...
When the Qur'an asks us to "obey", "follow" and take the Messenger (saw) as an "example" what, in your view, is the practical application of such directives?
The first two posts still make more sense :-p
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Okay, so you've given up on your "accepted hadith" argument...
[/QUOTE]
I don't have any "accepted hadith", but those who do should acknowledge that the collection of sayings attributed to Muhammed were not written down until generations had passed following his death. There is no way to know exactly what anyone said or did after that period of time has lapsed with any certainty. Certainly nothing that can be on par with God's word.
[quote]
When the Qur'an asks us to "obey", "follow" and take the Messenger (saw) as an "example" what, in your view, is the practical application of such directives?
[/QUOTE]
I would venture to guess that it means to follow and obey his example in following the teachings in the Quran, as it is the final word and law of God. I would not interpret it to mean that I am to imitate the way he brushes his teeth or shaves his hair. And I wouldn't think it means to believe directives in matters of life and death that anyone stated that weren't in the Quran. Especially if these directives were only as reported by those who lived hundreds of years after the words were supposedly spoken.
Seminole... your argument could also be applied to the Qur'an. If you think everyone had his/her own personal written copy of the Qur'an sitting at home from day one then you are sadly mistaken. The Qur'an was preserved and transmitted orally for the most part, the same with hadith. When written copies of the Qur'an began to flourish, so did hadith texts. Humans wrote, memorised and transmitted the Qur'an... the same humans did so with hadith also.
I would venture to guess that
it means to follow and obey
his example in following the
teachings in the Quran
Can you give an example of how the Prophet (saw) implemented a Qur'an-based directive or teaching?
Anything that has been "preserved and transmitted orally for the most part" cannot be 100% accurate or reliable. An argument can be made that a prophet of God (even one that is unable to read or write) could be given special powers to recite God's word. But it is beyond reason to expect subsequent generations to channel those words in their entirety and without flaw.
But my understanding is that Muhammed's followers did transcribe his Quranic recitations. His directives were to not record his non-Quranic words as they would be confused with God's book and God's words.