Sir ji, then let them have their systems. And let them provide basic education, improve healthcare programs, and provide whatever civil and human rights. Why the west is shoving them their medicine.
The problem with shariah is that it imposes a system (which many may find false) upon everybody. Democracy allows a person the freedom to decide their own faith and path. A religion is between an individual and God, there is not need to put the state, the clergy or anyone else in between. Enlightened people don't need someone else forcing their beliefs on them. Someone else's narrow (and perhaps unenlightened) interpretation is not necessarily correct.
Another problem is that there is no one version of it. People around here can't even decide if they are allowed to wear gold or eat a goldfish. I don't need someone to decide if I can wear gold or not.
Another problem are the thousands of hadiths that may or may not be valid. Who decides? Why after a 1000+ years has this not been figured out yet? If one hadith is invalid how do we know they all aren't invalid? After all, they are not the word of God.
You are asking what Islam has to do with governance, the right answer would be, everything. The Christian faith survived by separating it self from governance. That would be the characteristics of Christian religion. Islam doesn’t have to adapt the same way. If you see Christianity is still depended upon its secular institutions. These institutions which where created to separate the religion from governing are basically protecting the same religion. The Jewish faith has to adapt the same neo-secular democracy to re-establish it self. So give and take, the same secular institutions are helping the religion. So directly or indirectly all institutions are there to protect the religion, by the so-called separation.
Kan ko idhar say pakro yah ider say, the purpose is the same, that is protection of one’s religion. Majority of the muslims think and believe that our religion has everything to do with governance, be it non-secular-democracy, dictatorship or what ever. There cannot be any separation, I know it’s very hard to grasp, but that’s the fact. The principles of governance are clear, ini alhukmu illa lillahi.
Dear Semi all laws (be it US or any other) are imposed to have validity. The Shraia (Islamic laws) doesn’t interfere with your personal believe if you are not a Muslim, there is freedom of religion in Sharia. The point is your definition of religion might be good for Judo-Christian faith but it’s not good for Islam. And you don’t have to worry about the Ahadith, the rules of Fiqah are clear about hadith. Once you get fimilair with it you will its a very simple rule.
So once this point of separation is cleared we can proceed ahead and discuss about the system, there would be different flavors, no doubt about it, just as the French, German or the US democracies.
So at the end of the day all you end up doing is either defending or opposing a religion.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by MiniMe: *
So at the end of the day all you end up doing is either defending or opposing a religion.
[/QUOTE]
Or **im*posing a religion. People make it sound as if Islam is unique in its original conception as "law". Almost all religions start off as a set of rigid laws for followers. But most religions have gone through an age of Enlightenment and Reformation. What does make Islam unique is that it has not gone through this process. The idea that religion and governance cannot be separated is not hard to grasp, it is just an archaic and ineffective system in my point of view. If there is a religion out there that deserves to be used as a governing tool, I have yet to see it.
And while it is debatable if there would be freedom of religion in Sharia, there is no debate that some people's narrow interpretation of Islam would be forced upon all Muslims.
If the rules of Fiqah are clear about hadith, why is there so little consenus? If Islam as a whole is as confused about what is mandated by Allah as posters on gupshup, it is not that simple.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The problem with shariah is that it imposes a system (which many may find false) upon everybody. Democracy allows a person the freedom to decide their own faith and path. A religion is between an individual and God, there is not need to put the state, the clergy or anyone else in between. Enlightened people don't need someone else forcing their beliefs on them. Someone else's narrow (and perhaps unenlightened) interpretation is not necessarily correct.
Another problem is that there is no one version of it. People around here can't even decide if they are allowed to wear gold or eat a goldfish. I don't need someone to decide if I can wear gold or not.
Another problem are the thousands of hadiths that may or may not be valid. Who decides? Why after a 1000+ years has this not been figured out yet? If one hadith is invalid how do we know they all aren't invalid? After all, they are not the word of God.
[/QUOTE]
Very well said. I believe you are not a muslim but your view is consistent with the general Islamic principle of 'apply common sense, and the brain Allah has given you', something many Muslims put to one side, most unfortunately.
Asalam-o-Alakum
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) established the first Islamic state. What was that? Democracy? What is the status of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his Khalifa in an Islamic state.
Waslam
inuit
Dear it s not the people who make it sound like that, its the religion and its laws which makes the people say that. So there is something unique. What you see as Enlightenment and Reformation of Christianity and Judaism, is in our believe changing or going against the word of god. The Enlightenment, which came to Christianity with Paul and the transformation of Judaism in to a race based religion, was the result of reform, man made reform.
What you think as archaic was in use until 1924, under what ever form or under who ever, the law of the lands was under Quran and Sunnah (shria). To understand the concept of freedom of religion all you have to do is read the history of Jerusalem from Umer (RA) till the end of Othmans.
And you keep on asking about the rules of fiqah, and why there is no consensus, do you think that just because there are four different opinions I should drop the whole constitution.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
Dear it s not the people who make it sound like that, its the religion and its laws which makes the people say that. So there is something unique. What you see as Enlightenment and Reformation of Christianity and Judaism, is in our believe changing or going against the word of god. The Enlightenment, which came to Christianity with Paul and the transformation of Judaism in to a race based religion, was the result of reform, man made reform.
[/quote]
That is your opinion just like Christians and Jews believe that Muhammed was a false prophet and Islam a false religion. So we all know what weight opinions have.
The Christian Reformation of the 1500's was actually a rebellion against materialism and a wish to the return of spiritualism. They believed that priesthood belonged to the believer - not to the religous hierarchy. It is viewed by most as actually bringing man closer to God's word, not changing or going against Him.
[quote]
And you keep on asking about the rules of fiqah, and why there is no consensus, do you think that just because there are four different opinions I should drop the whole constitution.
[/QUOTE]
The Constitution is a man made doucment with laws written for man by man. They should be up to discussion. But you are talking about mandates from God which should be imposed on society. These should not be up for discussion. The perfect religion with everything man needs to govern should not be left to wildly different interpretations 1400 years after the word was given. The Constitution has only 26 Amendments, but it took thousands of hadiths to complete the word of God and people are still confused. So all in all, the Constitution is not a very good comparison.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The problem with shariah is that it imposes a system (which many may find false) upon everybody. Democracy allows a person the freedom to decide their own faith and path. A religion is between an individual and God, there is not need to put the state, the clergy or anyone else in between. Enlightened people don't need someone else forcing their beliefs on them. Someone else's narrow (and perhaps unenlightened) interpretation is not necessarily correct.
Another problem is that there is no one version of it. People around here can't even decide if they are allowed to wear gold or eat a goldfish. I don't need someone to decide if I can wear gold or not.
Another problem are the thousands of hadiths that may or may not be valid. Who decides? Why after a 1000+ years has this not been figured out yet? If one hadith is invalid how do we know they all aren't invalid? After all, they are not the word of God.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Democracy is on its last legs lets face it even in the West people are luke warm or totally put off by democracy they don't even bother to vote anymore, and the ones who do vote find out that in the US the guy with most votes Al Gore does'nt even get to win.
As for the muslim countires democracy went out with yesterdays garbage by most peoples view the only ones enforcing it on the people at gunpoint are the Governments and their partners in crime the Secular extremists!
the ones who try to attack islam as oppressive and out of date have run out of steam and are using same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of. The islamic revival is a reality and the puppet rulers and there sponsors in Europe and America know this clearly, from indonesia to the borders of Europe the muslims have made there view clear they want shariah!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Democracy is on its last legs lets face it even in the West people are luke warm or totally put off by democracy they don't even bother to vote anymore, and the ones who do vote find out that in the US the guy with most votes Al Gore does'nt even get to win.
As for the muslim countires democracy went out with yesterdays garbage by most peoples view the only ones enforcing it on the people at gunpoint are the Governments and their partners in crime the Secular extremists!
the ones who try to attack islam as oppressive and out of date have run out of steam and are using same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of. The islamic revival is a reality and the puppet rulers and there sponsors in Europe and America know this clearly, from indonesia to the borders of Europe the muslims have made there view clear they want shariah!
[/QUOTE]
Hahahahahah LoL.
You sound like a tape recorder on "Bash Democracy" mode....
Democracy has spread across the globe like wildfire over the last century as more and more societies have joined the free world in the pursuit of human rights and representation for all. The only countries to buck this trend have been Muslim countries. Rhetoric aside, Mr. AK47, it is religous governments that went out with yesterday's garbage. You have it reversed, it is you using the same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Mard Momin Mard Haq, Zia ul haq, Zia ul Haq
[/QUOTE]
Zia ul Haq's death was a joyous ocassion for Pakistan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Democracy is on its last legs lets face it even in the West people are luke warm or totally put off by democracy they don't even bother to vote anymore, and the ones who do vote find out that in the US the guy with most votes Al Gore does'nt even get to win.
[/QUOTE]
The current trend in 'hating democracy' by certain muslims is I suspect more a case of "well we'll never enforce our brand of Islamic governence on people by letting them vote freely - so lets force it down their throats and call it Gods way."
[QUOTE]
As for the muslim countires democracy went out with yesterdays garbage by most peoples view the only ones enforcing it on the people at gunpoint are the Governments and their partners in crime the Secular extremists!
[/QUOTE]
Doesn't sound very democratic - the ones 'enforcing it on the people at gunpoint' would be voted out by the people in a true democracy. What you describe is authorotarian, like Taliban
[QUOTE]
the ones who try to attack islam as oppressive and out of date have run out of steam and are using same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of. The islamic revival is a reality and the puppet rulers and there sponsors in Europe and America know this clearly, from indonesia to the borders of Europe the muslims have made there view clear they want shariah!
[/QUOTE]
Great ! Let the people vote for a Shariah governence if thats what they want. Thats democracy in action !
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
if I want to dance naked in town square, would it be possible, if not, why not.
[/QUOTE]
well if its you, I would not allow it based on several reasons
1) could be considered a form of terrorism
2) destruction of public property
3) violates city, county, state and federal environmental and health codes
there may be others
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Salman: *
Zia ul Haq's death was a joyous ocassion for Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah right. 1.7 million people attended his funeral.
What are you, ostrich or something.
Mard e Momin Mard e Haq, Zia ul Haq, Zia ul Haq.
mera opinion. use democracy as a means to an end.
achieve Islamic Democracy.....
take care all
peace
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
mera opinion. use democracy as a means to and end.
achieve Islamic Democracy.....
take care all
peace
[/QUOTE]
Islamic Democracy?
What is that? I thought he majority view was that these two concepts are not compatible...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Democracy has spread across the globe like wildfire over the last century as more and more societies have joined the free world in the pursuit of human rights and representation for all. The only countries to buck this trend have been Muslim countries. Rhetoric aside, Mr. AK47, it is religous governments that went out with yesterday's garbage. You have it reversed, it is you using the same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of.
[/QUOTE]
:) obviously no facts or figures just views from rose tinted spectacles. Spread like wildfire oh yeah is that what you call it.
Are you trying to tell me 2 billion muslims worldwide want man made laws instead of islamic state.
wake up and smell the coffee democracy is dead, in the US you got a president who had less votes than al gore. you got wrong man in white house seat :)
In pakistan you got people who are forced at gunpoint to get off buses and vote.
In turkey the Muslim use the democracy road win with majority in elections several times over and then told sorry you getting red card for scoring a goal.
In algeria the islamists win again majority, what happens you guessed it the west threatend Algeria with military intervention if islamists won (specifically France) and the democratic rights are not even given a second thought by western critics or media in this incident.
Lecturing the muslim world about corrupt ideas like democracy and capitalism is not gonna work because people have seen it done it and got the T Shirt they are not stupid and you can't fool them with rethoric like freedom of this and freedom of that and we will give you such great economy if you let us into your markets first, they can see lies coming a mile off. Democracy was even abandoned by the inventors of democracy "the greeks" who said it caused chaos and confusion.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Democracy has spread across the globe like wildfire over the last century as more and more societies have joined the free world in the pursuit of human rights and representation for all. The only countries to buck this trend have been Muslim countries. Rhetoric aside, Mr. AK47, it is religous governments that went out with yesterday's garbage. You have it reversed, it is you using the same lame old sterotype views which people have become bored of.
[/QUOTE]
Its spreading more like a disease...Like a plague...First it spread to Islamic lands then it took hold of Afghanistan costing thousands of Muslim lives then it spread to Iraq costing millions of Muslim lives...It's not democracy, it's demonocracy...It's a disease and a plague which rides upon the beast of greed, vice and avarice...