deep/ Ali / Ashtung/ Abdul/ qadeer/ Xtreme/ Asif/ Abdullah etc.. WHO CAN ANSWER THIS?

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1

Dear friends and Foes, Peace be on you…

Today I would like to ask you (all who believe that Mohammad(sa) is last in the line of prophets), a very sincere question. Can anyone please “translate” these following verses using any possible Arabic lexicon, encyclopedia or reference work and proof that this verse doesn’t mean that there is no possibility of any type of Prophethood for the rest of the world.

In fact when I came across this verse, for a second I thought, how unfortunate I was that I came to know this secret so this late. I took bait on this only verse. Yet there are some more, I will present them later after my exams.

**Commentary: **

The point is worthy of special note that, like some previous verses (e.g. 7:27, 28 & 32), the address in the words, ***0 children of Adam, *** is here made to the people of the Holy Prophet’s time and to the generations that are yet to be born and not to the people who lived in the distant past and followed Adam immediately. This form of address has been employed with a view to introducing an important subject which was to be conveyed to future generations of mankind. This is to the effect that Messengers of God will continue to appear as long as the children of Adam live upon this earth and that the opposition of the Holy 'Prophet’s enemies would not bring about his downfall nor the cessation of prophethood. The great promise which was held out to the progeny of Adam in the time of Adam (2:39) and according to which Messengers of God appeared among different peoples in different countries at different times will continue to be fulfilled till the end of time.

The words, ***if Messengers come to you from among yourselves, *** do not mean that Messengers of God may or may not come, just as the -words, If there comes to you guidance from Me (2:39), do not mean that guidance might or might not come. Indeed ’ the word “ema” (if) is intended to mean that if you happen to live at a time when a Messenger of God appears, you should not fail to accept him. Thus the word is simply meant to leave the time unfixed; the Messenger Of God may appear in one generation or another but whenever he appears, he must be accepted. Another very appreciable point in these words is that, who ever will come, He must be among the Ummat-e Mohammadia and not an outsider (like Jesus, who was a Mosic prophet).

The words, ***rehearsing My Signs unto you, *** hint at the fact that the Messengers who were to come after the Holy Prophet were to bring no new Law but were to follow the Law of Islam; they were simply to “rehearse” or recite the verses already revealed in the Quian.

This verse serves as a particular warning for Muslims that they should not make light of the Messengers who would appear among them and should not reject them. The Law hag indeed been made perfect in the Quran; but that does not mean that later Messengers of God may be rejected with impunity.

Does it make any sense?? .. Please dont deny… These are not Qadiani’s crafted words..
It doesn’t matter how much you curse us how much you hate us…we absolutely dont mind.. but please don’t refute the word of God. If you have any doubt. ask Him, and he will definitely never misguide you.

may allah guide us on the right path and protect us from the fire.. aameen

wa’salam

desperately yours

Zalim

[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 27, 1999).]

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A good proof indeed!

3

This is your reply

Surah Bakara - 10
In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allâh has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.

Surah Bakara - 18

They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)

And about the ayah of surah araf, it addresses the people of Prophet SAW's time and Allah SWT asks them that will you not believe in the prophet who is among your self, because they used to say that Allah SWT will not send a human being as a messanger and would send an angel from the sky for our guidance.

Wallah O Alam Wassalatu Wassalamu Ala Nabiyyana Mohammed.

4

Asalamu Alaikum,

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I hope you don't mind my replying.

I'm assuming the verses that you refered to are actually Verses 35-36 of Surah Al-Arif (7). They read, from the Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an:

verse 35

O ye Children of Adam!
Whenever there come to you
Apostles from amongst you,
Rehearsing My Signs unto you,--
Those who are righteous
And mend (their lives), --
On them shall be no fear
Nor shall they grieve.

verse 36

But those who reject
Our Signs and treat them
With arrogance, -- they
Are Companions of the Fire,
To dwell therein (for ever).

From these verses, I get no idea that there are more Prophets to come, just that we should understand the signs that have been given to us from Allah through the Prophets and change our lives according to the message of these Prophets. Basically, no matter what bad we have done in our lives, we should not grieve that Allah will not accept us, because we can still mend our ways. And if we reject His Signs then we will be punished.

Now, firstly, I want to thank you, because I know you are starting this post and providing the above information to cause a dispute. I think you truely believe what you've written here, and to you, it's an obvious interpretation of the Qur'an that you have taken, and have accepted your beliefs based on it. I think you are trying to share this knowledge with us in order to benefit us all. So do not take my response in hosility, because it isn't. I'm just showing you what another interpretation of these verses can be, and that maybe what is obvious to you, may not be so for the rest of us.

Now I'd like to share something that I've read in the Qur'an which makes it very clear for me that there are no other Prophets that have come since the Prophet Muhammed (SAW).

Firstly, verse 40, Surah Al-Azab (33)

Muhammed is not
The father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Apostle of God,
And the Seal of the Prophets;
And God has full knowledge
Of all things.

Now before you get upset, me and you obviously have different interpretations of the word "seal". But I had to include this verse because I truely believe it is clear from this verse that there are no more Prophets to come. But there are more verses.

Let me ask this first. In order for someone to claim they are a Prophet, would you say that they would require some inspiration from Allah? I mean otherwise any old man off the road could say he was a Prophet.

Okay.. if you answered yes, then I'd like you to read the following verse.

Verse 93, Surah Al-Ana'am (6)

Who can be more wicked
Than one who inventeth
A lie against God
Or saith, "I have
Recieved inspiration,"
When he hath receieved
None, or (again) who saith,
"I can reveal the like
Of what God hat revealed"?
If though couldst but see
How the wicked (do fare)
In the flood of confusion
At death! -- the angels
Stretch forth their hands,
(Saying) "Yield up your souls:
This day shall ye receive
Your reward, - a penalty
Of shame, for that ye used
To tell lies against God,
And scornfully to reject
Of His Signs!"

And from verse 4 of Surah Maida (5) we read that..

....
This day have I
Perfected your religion
For you, completed
My favour upon you,
And have chosen for you
Islam as your religion.
....

To me this means that this is the the final message to all of mankind. That Islam was perfect and complete as of the day this was revealed.

May Allah guide us all on the straight path.

W'salam

[This message has been edited by Yacoob (edited April 27, 1999).]

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Zalim,

Firstly I don’t curse or hate you and I accept that you believe in your religion and are sincere in trying to convey what you believe, however I do not share your beliefs.

You ask in your post “does it make any sense?”, well it does’nt actually! I think Yacoob has quite clearly explained what is meant by those verses and the finality of Islam as a religion. To suggest that there will be more prophets or messengers clearly implies that the Quran is incomplete in some way. The whole reason that the Quran exists is because it is the final word of God and can not be changed, that’s the difference between the Quran and the previous scriptures (Jewish and Christian). So what purpose would another messenger have and how is the message of Islam be any different from previous messages then?

Its quite easy to follow the teachings of various sects that we are all born into without really verifying whether the faith we follow is sanctioned by the book of Allah. The muslims were given the Quran so that they could have one code of life and not be divided into various sects ( I think there is a verse in the Quran which condems anyone who creates anykind of sect within Islam). The Quran is the guiding light for all of us and we should stop following practices which can not be verified by the Quran because that is pure conjecture.

If you agree that the Quran is the final word and is the guidance for all mankind (as all muslims do regardless of whether they are sunni or shia (these sects are also have no basis in the Quran and are purely man made)) then you should apply the divinely imposed duty of intellectual analysis of the Quran. This will surely lead you to conclude that the Quran is fully detailed and complete and prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did indeed deliver the final message to all mankind. You will also conclude that anyone proclaiming to be prophet or messenger after the revelations to the prophet (pbuh) could be doing nothing BUT creating another sect in Islam. – This quite clearly and categorically is against the message of Allah which is the Quran. – You can draw your own conclusions on any person claiming to be another prophet or messenger after the truth has been revealed to all mankind by prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

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>> ABDULLAH: Brother, you are just cursing us out of hated, for which we don’t mind. Ok we are dumb deaf blind, you can say whatever you want on a separate thread, - this is an intellectual discussion.

Secondly, I have given example of three more verses (i.e 7:27, 28 & 32), with the “same form of address”, viz “O chlidren of Adam...”. How can you justify that those verses also pertain to the people of the Prophets(sa) time and not for us?????. Can you please go through that again.

===============================================================

>> YACOOB: Brother your reply needs some answers.

1) REF: “...... the actual Verses are 35-36 of Surah Al-Arif (7)”

In reply to Qadeer, Brother Jewels has pointed out this issue on another thread earlier.. let me explain you again. We Ahmadis and also some Ulema’s of Holy Prophet’s(sa) time, consider “Bismillah” as part of revelation, and label it as verse number ONE.. thats why there is a difference in numbering. (your FIRST verse is our SECOND)

2) REF: reply to “.......verse 35, Yusuf Ali translation” “From these verses, I get no idea that there are more Prophets to come”

Sir, they are very clear words, "...whenever there come to you Apostles(messengerS) from amongst you....". I wonder why you fail to understand. I think its your old beliefs which are blocking the way. Read again with another Quran. may "be the old English is difficult to grasp.

No. absolutely I dont mean to start a dispute, its a general discussion, Its not my blind belief..... I am just sharing the words of GOD. and yes my purpose of this is to share the knowledge so that we can ponder on it.

3) REF: verse 40, Surah Al-Azab (33)

No doubt about it, We also belief that Mohammad(sa) is the “SEAL” of Prophets (highest possible rank in Propherhood) and the “LAST” law bearing Prophet.

I have asked this question earlier, that I will appreciate if anyone can present me just single verse which can support this concept of “the last in the line of Prophets”, I will withdraw with my beliefs and revert to your Islam.

4) REF; “Let me ask this first......... any old man off the road could say he was a Prophet. Verse 93, Surah Al-Ana'am (6)”

Here you have mentioned that anyone who claims of acquiring Inspiration from God, which is a lie, then he will be rewarded for this at the day of judgement. This is an excellent verse. But how will you know "NOW" that the man is a lier??? There should be a measuring scale. Dont you think so?

No sir, I don’t agree with you here, Certainly he will get a great punishment at that day, but what about this world, he should receive punishment in this world too, so that he may not mislead the people, isn’t ?.. My next discussion will be on this topic.. I will present that "lie dectetor" verse later... so wait for your answer.

5) REF; verse 4 of Surah Maida (5).. “this day I have perfected your religion..”

Over here, God says that he has "perfected the religion",... (but not the nature of man)... thats why, despite of the original Book, Islam has been sliced into so different school of thoughts. and that’s why Mujaddids were assigned at the head of each century and that the only reason for an Imam Mehdi’s randez-vous.

I think, you should go again and translate this verse (7:36, 37) by yourself and try to get the answer.. in the light of other verses (e.g 7:27, 28 & 32). Did I forget to mention any point? I will later..

==============================================================

Brother Yasir and Brother Jewel, would you like to share some more hidden aspects?

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 28, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 28, 1999).]

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I don't think I can add much to this discussion. Both ** brother Camille ** and ** sister Yacoob ** have posted sentiments similar to my own. At the risk of repeating their arguments I'll make four points, using both the Bible and Qur'an:

1) ** Confirmation of the coming of a new Prophet ** : In the Bible (Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18), it is written "Thy Lord, thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken." And "I will raise them a Prophet from amongst their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." These two verses confirm the coming of a new Prophet. Muslims believe that Prophet was Muahmmad (saw).

2) ** Jesus discusses the finality/seal of the coming Prophet ** : In the Gospel according to St. Barnabas (97-3-5), Jesus says, "...my consolation is in the coming of the Messenger, who shall destroy every false opinion of me, and his faith shall spread and shall take hold of the world, for so hath God promised to Abraham our Father. And that which giveth me consolation is that his faith shall have no end but shall be kept inviolate by God. ** The priest asked: "After the coming of the Messenger of God shall other prophets come?" Jesus answered: "There shall not come after him true prophets sent by God, * but there shall come a great number of false prophets whereat I sorrow * . ** For Satan shall raise them up by the just judgment of God and they shall hide themselves under the pretext of my Gospel." Here Prophet Jesus, denies the possibility of Prophets arising after the coming Messenger (for Muslims that Messenger was Prophet Muhammad).

3) ** The Qur'an confirms the words of Prophet Jesus (in the Gospel) regarding the finality of the coming Messenger. ** Quran (33:40) reads: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and ** the Seal of the Prophets ** ; and Allah is ever Aware of all things." The Muslim * Ummah * has held the belief that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the final Prophet, after which no newly appointed Prophet shall appear. This belief has been unanimously accepted by both Shia and Sunni * Ulema * for over 1400 years, without dispute. The Arabic words * "Khatimun Nabiyeen" * in 33:40, for most Muslim's demonstrates the finality of Prophethood. Prophethood hence ceases with Muhammad, no Prophet shall be appointed after Muhammad's death. Prophet Jesus will make a second appearance, however not as a new Prophet, but rather in his original capacity as a Prophet, already appointed by God.

4) ** The Qur'an is complete and perfect, therefore there is no need for any * new * message or messenger ** : The Qur'an (5:3) reads: "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam." This confirms both the ** completeness and perfection ** embedded in the message of guidance provided to Muslims through the Qur'an. With a complete revelation, there is no need for a new Prophet to be appointed. The Qur'an is complete and perfect - the word of God. Prophet Jesus will reappear to confirm the message and dispel any false beliefs and myths. When Jesus reappears, the world will know of his appearance, it will be known to humanity - not just a certain select group of individuals, but all of mankind. His will be a revolution, unlike any other.

These arguments for me are enough to convince me of the finality of Prophet-hood with Muhammad being the seal of Prophets, after which no Prophet shall be appointed, for there is no need, as Allah has "perfected" our religion and "completed [His] favour" unto us and chosen for us Islam as our religion (5:3). The belief in the finality of Prophet-hood is a fundamental belief of Islam, undisputed for over 1000 centuries. It's one of the cornerstones of Islam, along with the oneness of God ( * Tawhid * ). To deny it is to deny a major tenant of Islam. If indeed Prophet Muhammad (saw) were not the final Prophet, the Qur'an would directly inform its believers. Not to do so, and to rather hide the truth in a few ambiguous verses, which when interpreted in a certain manner indicate such a belief, would be unjust. And Allah is not unjust, He is merciful and compassionate. He has provided us with a book of guidance which is quite clear in its commandments and guidance.

My intention is not to attack your beliefs or convince you that they are incorrect. I won't be able to understand your beliefs and you probably won't be able to understand mine. Hopefully we can learn something from each other.

Achtung ;)

"[Jesus spoke]...I do not fear, for they cannot do anything contrary to the will of God. Wherefore let them do all that they desire; for I fear not them but fear God." (St. Barnabas, 147:8).

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I wonder what type of personalities you have, should I call it “flight-of-ideas” or “loose-association”. All of are answering tangentially, jumping from one theme to another.

Over here I am not asking your beliefs. I do believe in the prophecies of Old and New testaments, Sahoof of Abraham and Moses and all the Holy Scriptures. Perhaps there are lot more prophecies about Holy Prophet(sa) and Islam. Neither I am denying the belief the Mohammad(sa) as the SEAL of the prophets nor that God has not perfected the Religion. Since you guys have quoted repeatedly that “God has Perfected the religion”. The Question is, if the religion is perfect what is use of Imam Mehdi? Why every one acts differently. Why you lost your Khalifat system despite of Perfect Religion. CAN YOU ANSWER ONE? I will discuss this issue later on another thread.. lets not deviate from the topic.

I have asked you a simple question. Ok let me rephrase it...
What do you understand by the words “O children of Adam....”?

 Is it - a time-limited definitive expression that pertain to the people of the Holy Prophet’s(sa) time?
 OR - the addressee is non-specific and non-conclusive?
 OR - the expression has a combine past present and future tense?
 Are we not children of Adam-OR- the expression refers to the distant people who lived after ADAM and before Mohammad(sa)?

 Can you validate your statement in the light of other verses?.

If this verse contradicts with your beliefs than there must be some other way to look into this matter. Instead of twisting of the topic, it will be appreciated if you answer very precisely and intellectually.

This is so sad, just because of your belief in Khatam as “LAST’, you can deny the whole Quran on that(Yet you still fail to quote a single verse supporting this concept of LAST in the line).

You don’t have the tolerance to think outside your beliefs. That’s the only reason why today Christians are still Christian and Jews are still Jew. Well time is very cruel.. it will show you one day.. wait and see.

Non of you is brave enough to admit your fallacies. Let me give you an example, ever one beliefs in the Hadith that there will be 72/73 sects. Except one, all will be directed to the fire. Now tell me who has the courage to say I am wrong and try to find out the right path. “NO ONE”. because nobody wants to admit that they might me wrong, instead they all are so bold to point out Qadianis as fire recipients, All of you will go to Heaven except us. We absolutely dont mind how harsh your words may be and how torturous your revenges are. Our only purpose over here is to bring “awareness” in your souls so that you can have more taqwa and more love for Rasool Allah(sa).

Your silence shows you are speechless.

thankyou for your precious time, bye for now.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 29, 1999).]

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Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

br. dhalim, insha 'Allah you are well.

i can assure you that i'll respond to your post. how-ever please consider, that i

  1. have a family and children
  2. have a full time job
  3. am also involved in the community

i do not have the luxury of being a student like you and others, and can't sit and issue judgement on the matter in the flick of time. while my brother has suggested that he has exams and will respond to questions in due time, i have never insisted that there is a lack of courage or time thereof at your end. maybe when you can respond to some of my questions, we can then sit and sift through our questions :)

i'll be humble about my own state of affairs and can assure that there will be a response. it takes time and some research. i hope that you did not rush to make a decision on your following of the Ahmadiya, as you expect us to make.

br dhalim, also in your post, you tend to jumble up too many issues all in one write up, and then state that you'll discuss this later.

as to the issue of caliphate, i do not even consider the first three caliphs to be rightful in their claim to the caliphate, let alone the entire period of Islamic history, with the exception of the fourth Caliph of Islam. the Mahdi [a] will rule on the pattern that was sought by the Prophet [saw] as dileneated in the revelation to 5:3 and 5:67. so many of the brothers post aya and then make no reference to the asbab un nuzool: IT WAS IN REFERENCE TO THE CALIPHATE OF IMAM ALI, i.e the question of leadership of the ummah.

sure love of the Prophet and his Ahl al Bayt vide the Quran 42:23 that is in-cumbent ... doesn't that ask for a following to them?

as to the 73 sects, i invite your comments to my postings: Quran and Sunnah or Quran and Ahl al Bayt. please share your views with us.

bidding you a peaceful day and with prayers for your well being and safety

Abbas , Ali

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 29, 1999).]

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Zalim wrote: "What do you understand by the words “O children of Adam....”?"

The Qur'an should be taken in its entirety, verses shouldn't be taken out of context. These verses precede verses describing the story of Adam and Eve. It would seem as though they are in reference to the * immediate * family, the children of Adam and Eve - especially when taken in context of the entire Qur'an. Taking the Qur'an in its entirey means that we cannot ignore 33:40, which clearly states that Muhammad is the 'Seal' of Prophets (according to my understanding). Therefore the verse you quoted may be referring to the Children of Adam and Eve up to Prophet Muhammad, after which we refer to verse 33:40, which indicates the finality of the Prophet-hood, and therefore abrogates the command for believers ** after Muhammad ** to take any coming Prophet seriously.

Further, the finality of Prophethood has never been contested by any of the major schools of Islamic thought. It is futher supported by the Hadith literature and the Gospel. Therefore, the verse you've quoted, when taken in context of the entire Qur'an, is imploring the Children of Adam to believe in Messengers of God who narrate God's revelations or Signs. These Signs include the Qur'an and therefore include 33:40. Therefore any Prophet coming after Muhammad, would not be a Prophet at all, his Prophethood would be negated by the revelation of the Qur'an (33:40 itself).

Zalim wrote: "I do believe in the prophecies of Old and New Testaments, Sahoof of Abraham and Moses and all the Holy Scriptures."

Than you must believe in these:

1) ** The priest asked [Jesus] : "After the coming of the Messenger of God shall other prophets come?" Jesus answered: " * There shall not come after him true prophets sent by God * , but there shall come a great number of false prophets whereat I sorrow." (St. Barnabas (97-3-5) **

2) ** Quran (33:40) reads: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the * Seal * of the Prophets ; and Allah is ever Aware of all things." **

Zalim wrote: "Perhaps there are lot more prophecies about Holy Prophet(sa) and Islam."

Firstly, all Prophets preached the same message of Islam, the message of guidance has never differed:

1) And when We gave unto Moses the Scripture and the ** criterion ** (of right and wrong), that ye might be led aright. (2:53)
2) And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the ** Criterion ** (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil, (21:48)
3) The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the ** Criterion ** (of right and wrong). (2:185)

** The Qur'an is the same * criterion * revealed to Moses and the other Prophets of Islam. **

Secondly, there are no more prophecies (I'm assuming you mean divine revelations here), the Qur'an is complete and perfect, protected by Allah, this is clear from the Qur'an:

1) Fear them not, but fear Me! - and so that I may ** complete ** My grace upon you, and that ye may be guided. (2:150)
2) This day have I perfected your religion for you and ** completed ** My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. (5:3)
3) Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, ** complete ** for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. (6:154)
4) And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an ** all kind of similitudes ** , but most of mankind refuse aught save disbelief. (17:89)
5) And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an ** all manner of similitudes ** , but man is more than anything contentious. (18:54)
6) Then exalted be Allah, the True King! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Qur'an ere ** its revelation hath been perfected ** unto thee, and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge. (20:114)
7) Verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an ** all kinds of similitudes ** ... (30:58)
8) And verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an ** all kinds of similitudes ** , that haply they may reflect; (39:27)

** How can something be perfect yet incomplete. It cannot, the Qur'an is complete and perfect, no revelation will come after it. **

Zalim wrote: "Neither I am denying...God has perfected the Religion...Since you guys have quoted repeatedly that “God has Perfected the religion”. The Question is, * if the religion is perfect * what is use of Imam Mehdi? Why every one acts differently. Why you lost your Khalifat system despite of Perfect Religion. CAN YOU ANSWER ONE? I will discuss this issue later on another thread.. lets not deviate from the topic."

The religion is based on the Qur'an, if the Qur'an is perfect, complete guidance, than the religion too is perfect. I don't think we are deviating from the subject - since the subject is the issue of the finality of Prophets. Since Prophets carry with them revelations. By saying Prophets are yet to come you are arguing that something needs to be said, that wasn't already said in the Qur'an. Therefore the Qur'an is incomplete. Hence, we feel it necessary to show you proof from the Qur'an that indeed it is complete.

Further, you say you are not denying that God has perfected Islam, than go on to question why we believe Islam is perfect in light of the coming Mahdi and the loss of the Caliphate. In terms of the Caliphate and the Mahdi, they are irrevelavant to the discussion. The Caliphate is a political matter and the Mahdi will not add revelation to the Qur'an, the Qur'an is complete. He will only warn and guide believers to the straight path. Perhaps we can start a separate thread on both of these topics.

Here are some questions for you: The Qur'an clearly states that it is the best guidance. What other guidance are we awaiting for? What is the purpose of the Prophets to come? Prophets were men like us ("Say, I am only a mortal the like of you but I have recieved revelation...18:110), only pious and inspired by Allah. If the Prophets to come do not recieve communication from God - are they really Prophets at all?

It is my understanding that all Prophets recieved a form of divine inspiration or revelation ( * wahi * ). There are three forms of * wahi * . Allah either reveals something to the Prophet's heart, which he in turn reveals to the people. Or Allah reveals His words to the Prophet through a Voice, and the Prophet transmits the message to the people. Or Allah sends down His Angel to communicate His words to a person's heart, and the Prophet transmits those words to the people. So if there has been a continuous chain of Prophets from Muhammad onwards - who were these individuals? What message did they recieve from Allah? What "Signs" ( * ayat * ) did they corraborate as evidence to confirm their Prophethood?

Zalim wrote: "You don’t have the tolerance to think outside your beliefs."

I don't know what gave you that impression. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I differ in my beliefs from you, I am not intolerant of your beliefs. You have every right to believe whatever you want, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

I don't think I'm going to add to this discussion for awhile, I think its your turn to disclose some of your beliefs. Once you do, I'll participate. I apoligize for the long post.

Achtung ;)

11

Dear Zalim,
Lets say for the sake of argument that we believe in your intrepretation of the Quran and admit that Quran is not clear about the last prophet. So according to this theory no one knows when the chain of prophethood will end. If there were to come a person and make a claim of prophethood tommorow, would then you and other Qadianis beleive in such a person?. If he asks you to confirm his prophecy or be labelled as a kafir what would you do?. Time and again, I have asked the Qadianis of this forum to give us some compelling evidence why must Mirza Ghulam be accepted as a prophet but all they have come up with are some narrations foretelling the arrival of Mahdi and their handpicked excerpts of some scholars prophesizing when Mahdi will arrive. Nobody knows except Allah about the exact time of Mahdi's arrival. Do you have a CLEAR PROOF from the Quran or authentic hadith saying MAHDI will be born in Qadian, the name of his ancestors will be such, he will be rejected by the scholars of his time. All you have done is given the ayaats of the Quran your own meaning and arrogantly claimed that to be rational we must only beleive as you tell us. WHO ARE YOU to tell us how to interpret the Quran?. What qualifies your Molvis to claim that special knowledge?. Please do not answer my post if you cannot provide us with the exact answer to my questions since I am not going to read more quotes from Quran that are interpreted by your own scholars and reflect your beleifs. If you can, give us unmistakable, solid, unambiguous proof from the Quran or Hadith

12

Asalamu Alaikum,

"Silence show's you are speechless"

I saw this here, If Zalim is refering to my silence after my post, then maybe he doesn't realize that the world doesn't revolve around the Internet, and not everyone can be connected 24-7.

I am currently away from home, and will reply in detail to your post, but in the meantime, I will only say one thing.

In Verse 93, Surah Al-Ana'am (6)

Who can be more wicked
Than one who inventeth
A lie against God
Or saith, "I have
Recieved inspiration,"
When he hath receieved
None, or (again) who saith,
"I can reveal the like
Of what God has revealed"?
If though couldst but see
How the wicked (do fare)
In the flood of confusion
At death! -- the angels
Stretch forth their hands,
(Saying) "Yield up your souls:
This day shall ye receive
Your reward, - a penalty
Of shame, for that ye used
To tell lies against God,
And scornfully to reject
Of His Signs!"

Now it is obvious that one who does claim inspiration from Allah without having it will have a most shameful death, and can I ask you.. how did Mirza Ghulam die? Was it not shameful to die in his own excrement?

And let me ask you one more question before I end this post. I have shown you clearly in the Qur'an how Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is the LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH. But obviously you chose to interpret these ayats differently, so then I ask you: Do you not believe in the Hadiths of the Prophet Muhammed (SAW)? Because within Hadith literature there are several hadiths which indicate that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is the last prophet of Allah.

W'salam

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I don't believe it!

This argument was going on a few months ago, and now that i return, it's still going on.

I thought you Muslims thought that Muhammad is the final Messenger. Is this not a part of your religious belief? And i've been told that if you do not believe in this then you are not Muslim. Hmm ...

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:) :)- Achtung, Salamz

How are you bro. Hope every thing is fine down there.
Thankyou for replying in detail, I appreciate for your in-depth response. Beside I have nothing to do with other scriptures, my question was very simple and straightforward.

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In translation to this verse You mean to say that the said statement of Allah refers to the distant people who had lived immediately after Adam(as) and before Prophet Mohammad(sa) and you have concluded this theory on the basis of the theme of the whole chapter and also the Verse 30:41 which means Khatam as Last of the line.

Ok great. Now tell my, every verse of Quran has some “Rohaani” aspect for every generation. What point of view do you consider in this one? Is there any lesson for us? or its just a story like tales in the other scriptures. There should be some hidden guide for us too, other wise it would be Naskh’ed or mansookh’ed like other verses (deepblue don’t worry I will answer this issue of yours).

[MY OPINION]: To me, the duration of this verse is very specifically pointed out and that’s all the people after Mohammed’s(sa) time and not the past one. Otherwise it would have been revealed to Adam or earlier prophets, there is no need of it in Quran. Atleast I’am not sure if I am from Holy Prophet’s(sa) progeny, may be my forefathers were from Bani Israel or from the Noah(as), or from Inca’s civilization, who knows, but for one thing I am definite, for sure I am descendant of Adam. and this verse implies to me, if not you.

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[REPLY TO ACHTUNG'S QUESTIONS]

Actually, we both have same perspectives, the only problem is the lack of proper communication. Both of us are remarking the same motifs, but in different tenses.

So before you proceed, keep the following points in mind, so that we can cope comfortably in future;

1) Revelation doesn’t mean a Book
2) Mehdi will be a prophet and not an ordinary man

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 - [REVELATION doesn’t mean a BOOK]

It is a very common misconception among most Muslims that they consider “revelation”(wahi) as a “book” or something which abrogates or adds to the previous book. Referring to the same verse it says “...... rehearsing My Signs unto you,” hint at the fact that the Messengers who were to come, bring no new Law but were to follow the Law of Islam; they were simply to "rehearse" or recite the verses already revealed in the Quran. Its a complete message, there is no need to make changes (nor anyone can), instead it is necessary to remove dust from it which has been deposited over it with the passage of time. That what the purpose of Imam Mehdi is... isn’t? will He add anything to the book?, (perhaps, He will also receive revelations, - with out wahi his purpose is ineffectual)

Remember; All Books are revelations but not all revelations are books.

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Achtung says; .....The Qur'an clearly states that it is the best guidance. What other guidance are we awaiting for? What is the purpose of the Prophets to come?....

Achtung says; “.....Mahdi will not add revelation to the Qur'an, the Qur'an is complete. He will only warn and guide believers to the straight path......

to me, both of your statements are contradicting each other... If the religion is perfected, if the Quran is the best guidance then why do you need a Warner and why do you need a guide for the straight path. Your one statement is the answer to the other.

** By the “need of a Prophet” I mean that the Muslims will become so fragile with time that eventually they will need a Warner to revive them again, thats why it has been prophesied... God knew that the nature of Human is very volatile, it will dilute the words with the passage of time, despite of Perfect Message in hard copies (just compare your age group with 20 years younger ones... within this short span you can see a visible decay... and now we are talking about 1400 years behind) am I right? is this your answer . I think you mixed up revelation with the book and Mehdi with Prophet. The purpose of my Prophet is the same as your Mehdi’s**

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 - [MEHDI will be a PROPHET and not AN ORDINARY MAN]

My view of posting this verse is that the personality of Imam Mehdi is of Prophetic class and not an ordinary man. and so is this verse addressed.

Let me give you a very short view on this issue (we will discuss this on a new thread in detail)

Quran has classified Human specie into two categories, viz; [Bashr] and [Rasool]. Bashrs are further divided into [momin] and [munkir] (one who accepts and one who rejects the Rasool, respectively), and in the same book it is mentioned repeatedly that all Bashrs are allowed to accept, believe and follow Rasools only and no one else. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?

Since all Muslims believe that Imam Mahdi is going to be appointed by Allah, and is not going to be elected by the Muslim ummah. And he will be strengthened by revelations (the guidelines of his assignment). They also believe that Imam Mahdi, once he is appointed, will be the imam for the whole Ummah and for the whole universe and anyone who rejects him will be munkir. Give me one example of any person having these attributes and these qualities who was a non-prophet. Not a single man on earth appeared in history with these two qualities who was not a prophet, nor the Quran point out any. (may be I am wrong, do you have any evidence?)

For now this is sufficient to ponder.

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 - *[DECEND of EESA(as)] *

(This issue is not the topic of the conversation, but since there is a discussion on Prophets, I would like to add something.)

Another important issue is that Prophet Eesa(as) will come in the later days. That’s why in my post “by believe in future prophets” I mean Eesa(as) too. And my belief is that Eesa(as) and Imam Mehdi are two aspects of the same personality. (though this needs another thread, - I have to browse verses which says about Imam Mehdi and Eesa(as) separately, Perhaps you can help me out)

See your books forecasts that Prophet Jesus(as) will descend physically in the later days. And I believe that the Promised one will not be an outsider of Umatta-e Mohammadiyya.

Between us, one thing is common over here that a Prophet will come.

baat sirf itni see hai kay,.zaroorat kay aap bhi qa’il ho aur hum bhi.. farq kya hai hai hum dono main.. aiteraaz kiss baat ka?

For a sec, just leave your beliefs on one side and tell me if you have a choice, what will your self-esteem prefer, an old Mosic Prophet or a Prophet from a Momammad’s ummah? See, as deepblue said once that these are all metaphorical terms and they need to be interpreted not understood as it is. They are not fairy tales.

I think I am getting off-track now... I need a break :)

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That all for now.. I will be back soon. I hope I have answered your queries.
Sorry I dont mean to impose my thoughts on you, its a general discussion.

wa’salam

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:)    :)- **His highness Mr Qadeer, ....aadab!      :)**

Qadeer bahyya,. aik he saans main itna kuch kah daytay ho, bhai thora beech main pani bhi pee leya kero. aap ke reply perhtay perhtay to mujhay hichkeeyaan lag jatee hai.. :)by the way how are you. sub khariut hai na.. good

acha bahi abhi zara jaldi main hoon.. sari baatoon ka jawab mushkal hai.... fil haal isi pay itifaaq kero.. baqi baatain aida shumaray main mulhaiza fermain...

Sir I will reply each and every questions of yours and will prove every thing from my side about my faith. I am neither a murabbi nor a scholarly personality who can answer all your allegations precisely but will try my best to do so, over the period of time. Please cope with us. For now I am just accessing how far can you think and how unprejudiced you are.

I am thankful to all of you who despite of different ideology, still tolerate my posts and try to canvass your thoughts logically. Thank you for sharing the ideas.

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*[Anwser to your queries;] *

Sir, for being a Muslim it is my responsibility to follow the ahkaam of Quraan and Sunnah. Atleast I cant deprive-off myself from the treasures hidden in the whole Quran and Sunnah on the basis of just one verse, (i.e Khatam as last in the line), constrict my thoughts and revolve my whole life around it. Instead I want to justify the importance of this concept on the basis of other verses. (FOR UPTILL NOW NOBODY OF YOU HAS GIVEN ME ANY SUPPORTING VERSE) thats why I posted this verse, I dont agree that Imam Mehdi is an ordinary personality and My Prophet Mohammad(sa) has left a message that if an Imam Mehdi will come during my life I must say salam of rasool allah(sa) to him.

Now If anyone claims that he is a Mehdi, I am obliged to accept him. Its between HIM and ALLAH that he is false or true. The only powerful tool I have is prayers to validate his claim. Rejecting him erroneously might lead me to fire. I have to go to my grave and I am the one who will answer for my deeds and not my parents or my maulvi sahib or my rishtaydaar. And if Allah has blessed me with some wisdom, I should use it, and try to find out what is best for me.

I must measure His claim in the light of Quran, in the light of Sunnah, in the light of My shaoor, In the light of his character and his message and in the light of guidance from God(i.e Prayers). Once again I dont want to restrict my thoughts on the basis of just one verse and reject His true or false claimant.

And regarding your query that will I accept if any other Prophet after Mirza sahib will come. YES I will Sir in the light of specs I pointed out. Even if your Imam Mehdi will come I am bound to accept him because that’s what this verse under discussion says. My obligation is to access everyone and to accept everyone who claims that Allah has appointed him.

My next topic will be on the same issue.. please wait for a detailed post.

I am not convincing you to become an Ahmadi, I just want you to review your beliefs. This verse Khatam as “last in the line” has walled-off around your judgments, beyond that you guys cant see. and I am trying to pull you up to stand on it and experience both sides from top. phir chahay jo bhi raasta ikhteyaar kero.

bye for now.

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:)    :)- **Ali Abbas:** salam, Brother I am sorry for that rational reply. I will be curious to hear your Shiates view’s too, (may be after Moharram). Please take your time and sorry for the inconvenience.

:)    :)- **Camile:** Sis/Bro, Greetings!,  I have answered your reply at different places. there is no need to reply it again.. if you are expecting anything particular.. please jot it down again... 

:)    :)- **Yacoob:** Brother, well that statement is not for you guys, its an indirect address to someone, and he knows very well what I mean. Sorry for that. I think I should edit my message.

Well, you mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s demise. Sir this has nothing to do with me. Just take a look at Holy Prophet’s(sa) elegant personality and look what still people like Salmaan Rushdi says about him. Do you think they are right? Their thought reflects their personality. You cant change anyone nor can I.
If you still think we are to be cursed, Ok go ahead, no harm. 

:)    :)- **John**

Brother, unfortunately someone has given you a very wrong concept about Muslim’s beliefs.

The actual oath of Islamic doctrine is basically based on [Faith] and [Practice]
and this Faith and Practice together makes our religion complete.

= [Faiths]: there are six articles of Islamic faiths. viz;
**
1> Belief in Allah (One God)
2> Belief in Angles of Allah
3> Belief in Books of Allah
4> Belief in Prophets of Allah
5> Belief in the Last Day.
6> Belief in the decree of Allah**

= [Practice]: there are 5 pillars of Islam or act of worship, viz;
**
1> Declaraton of Faith *(Bearing witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah, and Mohammed is His servant and His messenger.
**2> Observance of prayers
3> Paying Zakat (Charity)
4> Pilgrimage to the Ka’ba – the house of Allah
5> Fasting during the month of Ramadhan
*

and this is the standard criteria for being a Muslim. Believing in Holy Prophet(pbuh) as “LAST” is not part of this yardstick. It is obligatory for all Muslims to follow all these laws, yet there is no compulsion in Islam.

may Allah bless you.

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Wa’salam. (brb in 2 wks)

your Khadim,

Zalim

**
O ye who believe!
bow down and prostate yourself in Prayer,
and worship your Lord, and do good deeds
that you may prosper.
[22:78]
**

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 02, 1999).]

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"Prophethood will last among you as long as Allah wishes it to last, and then Allah will raise it up. Afterwards there will be the Khilafah according to the ways of Prophethood as long as Allah wills, then Allah will remove it. Afterwards there will be hereditary rule (by consent) and it will last as long as Allah wills, then Allah will raise it up. Afterwards there will be biting oppression and it will last as long as Allah wills, then Allah will raise it up. Afterwards there will be the Khilafah according to the ways of Prophethood," and then the Prophet was silent

Ahmad ibn Hanbal

There are just too many proofs which go against your ideas. From what you have written here I only see that your ideas are based upon a certain verse when interpreted in a particular way. Tha majority of scholars will not interpret the verse like you have.

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Mudassir,

Sir, I didn’t say anything against your Quote. actually I mean the same.. the Prophet will be the Khalifa of Holy Prophet(sa). And I have mentioned that we are obliged to believe in Prophets only and not ordinary Imams. I think you guys has a misconception about Messenger/Warner/Prophet.

These are names of the same character ---> Prophet = Imam Mehdi = Khalifa= Warner = Messenger

I will look into this matter, Quran has address Prophets with four names, I only recollect two i.e. Basheer and Nazeer. I will reply to this later, and all these labels fits on your concept of Imam Mehdi)

And according to your second comment, you said; ** “From what you have written here I only see that your ideas are based upon a certain verse when interpreted in a particular way.”**

Sir, Yes we made conclusions on the basis of proportional verses and that’s obligatory to validate the meaning of that particular verse in the light of other words of Quran. What about you guys? You craft all your decision on JUST ONLY ONE VERSE.

Wa’salm

[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 02, 1999).]

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Zalim Bhaiyya
SADA KHUSH RAHEIN. AAP KA MOHABBAT BHARA JAWAAB SUN KER BOHAT ACHA LAGA. MEREY BATOON KA BORA NA MANAIN MERI AAP SAY KOI KHANDANI DUSHMANI NAHIN HAIN. AGAR AAP KO MERAY STYLE SAY IKHTILAAF HAY TO BAHARHAAL MEIN KOSHISH KAROON GA KEY ZAYADA AGGRESSIVE NAHI NAZAR AAOON.
Now without even discussing the meaning of KHATAAM let me explain why I beleive Mohammad is the final messenger. Since we all agree that the law for muslims is found only in the Quran, Hadith and the consensus of ahle-sunnan scholars, we know that all the Islamic rulings are derived from these three sources. If any action of any one particular individual or group contradicts these, we must reject such an action as unislamic in nature. The principles regarding the methods through which Islamic decisions are based have been codified and, in essence, are unalterable. These principles have been laid out by historically well known personalities among such are Abu Hanifa, Shafie, Hanbal, Bukhari etc. They all agreed in principle about the central elements that constitute faith are tauhid and finality of prophethood. They were all steeped in religious sciences and most of them were familiar with the arabic lexicon more than me and you. Through Quran we find the concept that religion has been perfected in other words there is no further need to add or delete anything from it. Now the question why people do not act upon it is easy to answer. Allah has delivered his promise and given us the guidance in the form of Quran and life of prophet Mohammad p.b.u.h.. However, he has not promised that he will make every one obey Islamic law. People have free will, intellect to choose or reject the teachings of Islam. The mujadids came to remind people who started to become lax in their morals and religious practices and nothing more. As such we have a long list of mujadids. They did not claim prophethood. Not even one of them. Your Mirza, though, is an exception. If the deen is perfected and mujadids have been coming then what is the need of any new prophet?. It just does not add up. When the Qadianis claim that they do not add or take away any thing from Islam it looks like to me they are trying to deceive people. How can they claim that when besides rejecting the beleif in finality of prophethood they also introduce the concept of reincarnation. If I am not mistaken, I did read an excerpt from one of the Mirza's book in this forum that implied he was not the actual Eesa but rather a spiritual form of Eesa. Now this is unheard of in conventional Islam. Show me one example where someone has made such an outlandish claim. Please pardon my language but this is what I would truly call that. In the light of these facts, I cannot regard Mirza's role as that of a prophet's. I might reluctantly accept him perhaps as a mujadid but then again I am not sure how he helped in reviving the islamic spirit back in the people like Mujadid Alf-e-sani and others. When I see the Qadianis I am reminded of how bitterly Islam has been splintered in all these factions such as shiites, ismailis, and others.