No organization gets the scholars to the table. They often ignore the scholars. Scholars are against ISNA and yet ISNA goes ahead with their plans. Knowledge is being taken away from this earth really fast... :(
ISNA is better. It just tells you the day when moon will be visible. If the calculations are correct, there is no way you could see moon before that. If the calculations are not correct, ... improve them.
So they are not really taking away "seeing the moon" part. They are just telling you, when u be able to see it. Its like weather forecast, only that weather forcast cannot always be very accurate, because of far too many variables. However moon orbit and speed is fixed, so its much much easier.
ISNA is better. It just tells you the day when moon will be visible. If the calculations are correct, there is no way you could see moon before that. If the calculations are not correct, ... improve them.
So they are not really taking away "seeing the moon" part. They are just telling you, when u be able to see it. Its like weather forecast, only that weather forcast cannot always be very accurate, because of far too many variables. However moon orbit and speed is fixed, so its much much easier.
I get what you saying but isn't the same as in the Islamic calendar? We know when to look for moon alhamdulillah. ISNA just adds more politics to what already is present. And the people who follow ISNA (at least where I live) say the date which ISNA selected is the day of EID. Nobody can challenge them. That's the attitude they have.
No organization gets the scholars to the table. They often ignore the scholars. Scholars are against ISNA and yet ISNA goes ahead with their plans. Knowledge is being taken away from this earth really fast... :(
Really. So, we have donkeys with no brains working with ISNA?
I get what you saying but isn't the same as in the Islamic calendar? We know when to look for moon alhamdulillah. ISNA just adds more politics to what already is present. And the people who follow ISNA (at least where I live) say the date which ISNA selected is the day of EID. Nobody can challenge them. That's the attitude they have.
May be what islamic calender lacks, is a leap year. Let someone consolidate ISNA and Islamic calendar.
I am not sure I understand you correctly, so pardon me if you meant some thing different. What you said is not entirely correct. ISNA is not in the business of telling people when to look for moon, based on calculations. That is the job of scientists. What ISNA is doing is creating a new "solution" to the "problem" of unpredictibility of moonsighting and "last minute confusion". Additionally they believe that muslims celebrating eid etc on different days due to different sightings of the moon is not acceptable. What they are saying (in collaboration with Fiqh Council of America as well as Fiqh Council of Europe) is that actual moon sighting is no longer necessary. Based on scientific calculations, they have determined when new moon is sightable in Mekkah (they originally picked GMT, but have now switched to Mekkah), and based on that they have published an Islamic calendar for the next 5 years. Actual moon sighting, or not, is not going to effect this calendar. They are done with it. ISNA has many learned scholars who support this position.
To my knowledge, this is the first time such a fixed lunar calendar is established by an organized muslim forum. On the other hand, many muslims believes that start of a muslim month should be based on actual moon sighting because that is sunnah. The science of moon was pretty advanced even back in the early days of Islam, and still actual moon sighting was established as the requirement in the sunnah. Imam Hamza Yousif and many other established scholars are vociferous opponents of the "calculated Islamic calendar" approach.
Hope this clarifies the two different schools of thought that are perculating in the Islamic circles of the USA.
My question to guppies in the gulf - esp in KSA, Qatar & UAE, as Saudi Arabia announced sighting of moon on Thursday, (shahdat from only a handful of peoople), did everyone see the 2nd moon on the evening of Friday there?
I am not sure I understand you correctly, so pardon me if you meant some thing different. What you said is not entirely correct. ISNA is not in the business of telling people when to look for moon, based on calculations. That is the job of scientists. What ISNA is doing is creating a new "solution" to the "problem" of unpredictibility of moonsighting and "last minute confusion". Additionally they believe that muslims celebrating eid etc on different days due to different sightings of the moon is not acceptable. *What they are saying (in collaboration with Fiqh Council of America as well as Fiqh Council of Europe) is that actual moon sighting is no longer necessary. Based on scientific calculations, they have determined when new moon is sightable in Mekkah (they originally picked GMT, but have now switched to Mekkah), and based on that they have published an Islamic calendar for the next 5 years. * Actual moon sighting, or not, is not going to effect this calendar. They are done with it. ISNA has many learned scholars who support this position.
To my knowledge, this is the first time such a fixed lunar calendar is established by an organized muslim forum. On the other hand, many muslims believes that start of a muslim month should be based on actual moon sighting because that is sunnah. The science of moon was pretty advanced even back in the early days of Islam, and still actual moon sighting was established as the requirement in the sunnah. Imam Hamza Yousif and many other established scholars are vociferous opponents of the "calculated Islamic calendar" approach.
Hope this clarifies the two different schools of thought that are perculating in the Islamic circles of the USA.
Peace bro Faisal
I think you have misunderstood the calculated solution that has been proposed. They are not doing it on the basis of a calculated sighting, they are doing it on the basis of calculated moonset after sunset in Makkah pending conjunction. Many of the dates are not sightings at all for Saudi. For example this time around Thursday night was the announced day, but it was calculated as impossible for a sighting anywhere except in Argentina. The rest of the criteria was fulfilled, i.e. conjunction took place before 12:00 noon and the moon did set in Saudi after the sun, but the age of the moon was not old enough for a sighting to take place and that is well known. In practice not a single sighting has been possible before 12 hours of moon's age.
The real contention that people have with this proposal is that it resembles more closely the Jewish calendar system. i.e. it is based on conjunction rather than hilal.
May be what islamic calender lacks, is a leap year. Let someone consolidate ISNA and Islamic calendar.
Peace Robert
A leap year is an embarassment to time standardisation. The leap year is proof that we can't pinpoint the natural cycle. We have a perfect cycle in the lunar calendar system, based on sighting. The problem is it disrupts inadequately planned calendars.
A leap year is an embarassment to time standardisation. The leap year is proof that we can't pinpoint the natural cycle. We have a perfect cycle in the lunar calendar system, based on sighting. The problem is it disrupts inadequately planned calendars.
There really is no need for a leap year.
thats y i said May be. We can pin point the natural cycle much better now. thats why we know leap year is not a perfect solution, as we still are 2 hours short.
Please look back at the text you have highlighted. The key word is ‘action’. It implies the actions based on rituals have to be coupled with the correct intentions.
This is a world apart from those people who ignore ritual actions replacing them with the spirit of things and inaction.
Tradition needs to be maintained with reason and reason in-line with traditions.
Neither the twain should be allowed to supercede the other.
If I tell you what time will be the sunset on Dec 21st 2007, no one will have any problem. Everybody is fine with that calculation and they do not see the need of first actually seeing the sun set, before they offer maghrib prayer.
But when we talk about Moon, when it will become visible, using a very similar method, suddenly its an issue for everybody.
If I tell you what time will be the sunset on Dec 21st 2007, no one will have any problem. Everybody is fine with that calculation and they do not see the need of first actually seeing the sun set, before they offer maghrib prayer.
But when we talk about Moon, when it will become visible, using a very similar method, suddenly its an issue for everybody.
Peace Robert
The sunset times have been ratified, but current research is being done to ratify the crescent moon sighting predictions alongside their reported sightings. When there is enough confidence then I assume it is only a matter of time that adoption will be made. However, I believe there are techincal issues in that moon sighting has been seen as a distinct tradition and for tradition's sake it should continue as a pracitce in it's own right.
I am also a proponent of using scientific and astronomical means for issues of moon sighting and other obligations we have that are dependent on celestial movements similar to your view point. I think I would disagree with you here though about it continuing for traditions sake as a practice in its own right. My thoughts say that it was not established as a tradition 1400 years ago but as the best possible technique for ascertaining an obligation. I say the subsequent outcome is important rather than the means to achieve it, which consequently would mean that better means should retire older means no matter how much tradition is associated with them. Our obligation is to observe the Islamic months based on a lunar calendar rather than observe lunar events as the obligation as implied by the traditionists or classical scholars of Islam.
^ Excellent point. People didn't have clocks and digi watches back then, and yet we have precise timetables that you can find at any masjid regarding sunset and sunrise timings - clearly, those have been predicted ahead of time according to calculations, right?
So then why can't we use telescopes, and have ONE Eid?
PCG, its one of those things where you just have to wait a couple/few/dozen more years and everyone will followed calculated lunar calender. There was a time when Quran being translated was considered a BIG no no and slavery didn't raise any eyebrows.
should we also get rid of our clocks, and schedule things according to Sunrise and Sunset?
Don't we already use clocks and calculated times for the movements of the Sun, no reason why the same could not be done for the moon. Though there is a subtle point here that we must pick up, we have the liberty to be a day on or off when deciding on the Islamic month we do not have that margin when performing daily prayers. You can't say your praying yesterdays Maghrib prayer today because you didn't see the sunset yesterday because of the weather. We have a greater margin of error when deciding the beginning of an Islamic month but we do not have to purposely use that margin of error if we have the means to avoid it.
