Its worth watching…
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
It was interesting. How hoodbhoy swore at hamza and left.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Hamza Tzortzis can’t pray for his parents when they die, because they are not muslims. He believes they will burn in hell for all eternity, not because they are bad human beings, but because they are non-muslims.
Thats another side of this man, who is finding cryptic words in the Quran and claiming that they prove how The Quran is apparently a book of science.
Sadly many muslims believe into this type of talk, and we see no scientific progression in muslim countries, when compared to their western counterparts.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Professor Hoodbhoy lives in, and has his livelihood in, the muslim world. Hamza Tzortzis does not. Tzortzis just proved once again, what a vile individual he is, by saying that Professor Hoodbhoy hates the muslim world, because Tzortzis was unable to comprehend that its not Professor Hoodbhoy’s hatred which makes him call human beings to walk the path of reason, in the muslim world, but rather his love and concern for the muslim world.
People like Tzortzis are enemies of the muslim world. They do not want progression, they do not want tolerance, they do not want reason to emerge victorious in the battle between reason and unreason.
Any and every Pakistani, with the slightest concern for Pakistan, should support Professor Hoodbhoy, instead of vile individuals such as Hamza Tzortzis. One is fighting for Pakistan, the other is spouting nonsense, trying to mislead people, so there can be no progression in the muslim world.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
I googled Professor Hoodbhoy. Some links say that he is an atheist. Is he? Because if he is, no atheist would support any religion let alone Islam.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Balthier’s comment has made me curious. I’m going to watch now.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
If a discussion has been had that leads the opponent to walk away angry from the discussion then that is bigger in failure than how big the win might ever be on intellectual grounds.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
I find this video highly aggravating …
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Done!
The essence of this video:
1:22:00 to 1:25:00
And
1:48:25 to 1:52:00
wow, what a bitter person that Mr. Hoodbhoy is! And is he the reason why all the “educated” Pakistanis on this site are being so sour and intolerant towards religious people lately and accusing them of being ignorant and irrational?
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
These so called intellectual are highly inflammable. Just two days back, one intellectual tweeted "Karachi International Book Fair should be be called Karachi Islamic Book Fair. 99% Islamic books stalls’. I replied that ‘There were hardly 10% of Islamic book stores. why so much hated for your own religion’. To this he said ‘first follow your religion with honesty’. In reply I provided him list of Islamic book stalls (from my memory I could remember 7-8 stalls) and ask him that if you add and reach upto 25 stalls (being 10% of total more than 300 stalls, I’ll salute you’. I further asked ‘Even otherwise, if its in majority, you should respect people’s choice and whats harm in it, if people want to study their religion’. He replied ’ Nothing good comes from this’ and then he blocked me lulz](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=LULZ)
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
This was always going to be a debate … I think Hoodbhoy took more offence at being called a Muslim world hater because he was trying his best to keep his soft approach - seemingly rational. Seeing through the stylistic approach Hamza called him out and Hoodbhoy lost his composure …
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Many assumption in your post. I am from muslim world. I dont hate like hoodbhoy, I do not idealize it as hamza.
To my humble knowledge islam is the best thing we have to deal with issues, we face.
How could I take input from hoodbhoy when world islam repels him ?
Would you go to learn physics from a teacher, who teach arts, and hate to even hear the world islam.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Any and every Pakitani and muslim should be bitter about the state of affairs, and lack of respect for human rights, in the muslim world. Unless said person decide to turn the blind eye to reality.
What many of you are mistaking for hatred on Professor Hoodbhoy’s part, is actually a genuine concern for his country of birth. He could have, like many of us, fleed Pakistan, but he has decided to stay back, and work for the improvement of the nation, by telling Pakistanis to walk the path of reason.
Then Mr Tzortzis walks in, with his (pseudo) science, of which he has no merit, and this he even admits, and tries to drag people back to the path of unreason. Mr Tzortzis is ignorant enough to not see the problems that are plaguing Pakistan, mainly due to so many people walking the path of unreason, which leads to nothing but lack of compassion and respect for fellow human beings. Such as when Tzortzis believes that his own parents will burn in hell. You really don’t see the connection between that and many muslims believing that non-muslims, regardless of their deeds, will burn in hell?
You really don’t see that as problematic? How do you think such mindset contributes to the viciousness we see in many muslim nations?
Also, can anyone actually challenge Profess Hoodbhoy on his claim that the muslim world has contributed with nothing in the world of science and inventions for the past, god knows how many centuries? What do you think is the reason that wealthy Arab state’s are unable to contribute in those fields? On the other hand, said nations are sadly pretty good at violating human rights.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Hamza do not do scince or pseudo science. He still loves his old tradition of logic and stuff.
Which at times looks… old fashioned. Because it is.
I dont have any thing against hoodbhoy, he is very well known physicist.
All I said was, a person who disapproves some thing, you should listen to his argument, but I wont have him as my inspiration to know islam.
And yes brother, I know issue in our country, and I am very sad about them.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Any and every Pakitani and muslim should be bitter about the state of affairs, and lack of respect for human rights, in the muslim world. Unless said person decide to turn the blind eye to reality.
**But the debate had nothing to do with state of affairs in Pakistan or human rights.
Hamza T was trying to prove that Quran can be understood using rationality…and that whatever Quran says about reality doesn’t go against reality.
Hamza T was agreeing with Hoodbhoy that Quran is not a book of science but Hoodbhoy kept stressing on this point as though Hamza was propagating the idea of Quran being a book of science. **
What many of you are mistaking for hatred on Professor Hoodbhoy’s part, is actually a genuine concern for his country of birth. He could have, like many of us, fleed Pakistan, but he has decided to stay back, and work for the improvement of the nation, by telling Pakistanis to walk the path of reason.
**Again, nothing to do with the topic. And he never told Pakistanis to walk the path of reason. In fact, he said the quite opposite. He said, you can’t use reason and rationality to understand Quran. **
Then Mr Tzortzis walks in, with his (pseudo) science, of which he has no merit, and this he even admits, and tries to drag people back to the path of unreason. Mr Tzortzis is ignorant enough to not see the problems that are plaguing Pakistan, mainly due to so many people walking the path of unreason, which leads to nothing but lack of compassion and respect for fellow human beings. Such as when Tzortzis believes that his own parents will burn in hell. You really don’t see the connection between that and many muslims believing that non-muslims, regardless of their deeds, will burn in hell?
You really don’t see that as problematic? How do you think such mindset contributes to the viciousness we see in many muslim nations?
**Whether Hamza T prays for his parents or not, is his personal matter. He didn’t even bring this up in his debate so why talk about it?
Hamza T was talking from a philosophical point of view…I don’t know why you or Hoodbhoy would accuse him of being pseudo scientist? He actually agreed with Hoodbhoy on not using pseudo science to come up with vague ideas like comparing light of speed to the speed of angels etc. **
Also, can anyone actually challenge Profess Hoodbhoy on his claim that the muslim world has contributed with nothing in the world of science and inventions for the past, god knows how many centuries? What do you think is the reason that wealthy Arab state’s are unable to contribute in those fields? On the other hand, said nations are sadly pretty good at violating human rights.
He said 1000 years…10 centuries. Hamza did addressed this point but I don’t know what was Hoodbhoy trying to prove? He himself is supposed to be a very educated person but he couldn’t even argue with rationality, instead he was using emotions…same ghissay phattay arguments. May be he couldn’t understand Hamza’s accent but whatever was the reason…he clearly lacks critical thinking skills.
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Re: Debates: Hamza Tzortzis and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Religion & Rationality
Nothing to do with the subject - BUT - I agree with this statement of yours …
Every Pakistani and Muslim should be upset (not bitter) about the level of human rights we preserve … Islam if followed properly would ensure that no people could even be mistaken for being more humanitarian than Muslims … The problem is so called modern thinkers think the problem lies with Islam - It does not - it lies with the Muslims leaving Islam.