Dear NYAhmadi -

You said:

"It helped light the torch of spirituality that was dimming in me. I needed that kick in the butt. "

Spirituality is a necessary mindscape. It got nothing to do with spirituality and I’ll ignore the delicacies of your usual metaphor-ism to concede that it wasn’t what you meant. HaaN, it got everything to do with passion. It got everything to do with “fire and grit”. Passion makes you weak if it doesn’t sprout up from your indepedent sense of right and wrong, no matter how much and how many times wrong you are.

I can take ch***** statements from anybody but not from a friend that I expect more from. I can’t let you be an apologist and I can’t let you be an antagonist. But most importantly, I will never let you be an apologist in an antagonist’s skin, and vice versa. It’s not about Muslims. It’s not about America. It’s not about India, and it’s definitely not about Jews or Palestine. You cannot make a claim based on broad generalities and then chew on specific examples.

I’ll welcome any retorting kick in the balls that you might come up in a week. The gentleman that I am, here is an article with bolded points that you might want to bring along to help you kick better.

PS-
Chaltahai, you cannot sit there like a scholarly daivta and quietly smile at everything that Ahmadi, I, or the (somewhat) cute bartender says, and then in the end come up with your godly verdict of “You are over-analyzing” and continue to sneak into my drink. You are either in or you are out and I am definitely ain’t the one that you’re in and/or out of.

See you guys in 8 days.

Article by Robert Locke

Islam: A Defective Civilization?

... Is Islam a fundamentally defective civilization and are the advanced nations of the earth therefore doomed to find it a source of trouble? One cannot help noticing that if we take "civilization" in the sense established by Sam Huntingdon's excellent The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, it appears that they are the problem child of the planet. The alternative, of course, is that the trouble Islam appears to cause is the product of pure politics and not of religion per se. After years of politically-correct West-bashing sapping our spirit, it is probably salutary for us to assert our superiority if it is warranted, so let's take a look.

These are the facts that confront us about the Muslim world:

  1. Politics: Few Muslim nations are real democracies; in the Arab heartland, the count is zero. An exceptionally high proportion of the Muslim nations, the highest proportion of any major bloc of countries, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

  2. Economics: The Muslim world is impoverished and backward economically if one ignores oil, a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the oil states can't produce their own oil but rely on foreign expertise and labor.

  3. Society: Most Muslim societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

  4. Culture: The culture of the Muslim world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.

At some point, the observer is entitled to wonder if Islam is behind the problems of Islamic countries. As shown by the enormous amount of conflict Muslims have with Hindu India and with black Africans in the Sudan and elsewhere, it is not just the West they can't get along with.

One of the most unattractive things about Islam from the point of view of a non-Muslim observer is its combination of arrogance with a failure to back this chest-beating up with results. The West is often accused of arrogance, but the West and its imitators rule the world, so there is a certain logic, if no politeness, to this attitude. Islam, on the other hand, particularly in the minds of its most fanatical adherents, seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening. It is a doctrine of Islam, for example, that the end of history comes when all the world is converted to Islam; I do not believe any other major religion makes this claim. This sense of superiority and destiny of domination is combined with a curiously inflamed sense of victimhood, for example the ongoing obsession with the crusades as having political relevance to the present day. And of course they ignore the fact that the Muslim world invaded and conquered Europe (at various points Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Hungary) centuries before the West had laid a hand on them. Furthermore, in terms of their supposed grievance against Christianity, it is conveniently forgotten that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and Constantinople were once Christian areas, which fell to Muslim conquest. This is the mentality of the bully-wimp, of the fascist crybaby.

To be fair, one of the sad things about Islam is that many of its definite positive aspects seem to have been blunted in modernity. For example, in the Middle Ages Muslim societies were more tolerant of their religious minorities than was European society at the time, albeit with an air of contempt. They were also more scientifically advanced for a time. All serious writers on modern Islam have posed the following question: why is Islam an obvious correlate, if not a cause, of backwardness today when in the Middle Ages Islamic civilization was one of the most advanced in the world? This is frequently represented as a great puzzle, though I do not think it has to be one.

The simplest explanation is that Islam dictates by dogmatic fiat a kind of high-medieval civilization, but because it establishes it by dogma, it cannot easily advance beyond it, because dogma is fixed. Islam provided a shortcut to a level of social development higher than that of Europe's Dark Ages, but also a dead end. This would also tend to explain the astonishing rapidity of its development in the Middle East after Mohammed's revelation, which led to the vast Caliphate of Baghdad, ruling much of the known world, in a relatively short period of time.

The key historical difference between them and us, of course, is the Renaissance. It has even been suggested that the direction of medieval Islamic philosophy shows that a Renaissance was gestating in medieval Islam, inspired as in the West by the assimilation of ancient Greek learning, but that the religious authorities saw its disturbing potential to disturb received religious truth and strangled its development in intellectual infancy.

The counter-argument to all this is that the commonly repeated story of Islamic civilization being at one time the most advanced in the world is a gross exaggeration. The core contention of this school is that what they achieved, they achieved by militarily absorbing non-Muslim societies, like Persia, Egypt, and Byzantium, that were already advanced in their own right and whose achievements after the Muslim conquest cannot be ascribed to any Muslim genius.

...continued ...

...

The next problem is sharia, Islamic law, a detailed body of instructions on how to run society that has no counterpart in Christianity. The precepts of Christian ethics contained in the Bible are nowhere near as specific, and even they are only ethics, not actually intended to be the statutory law of the land. Even sharia's closest equivalent in the West, the Jewish hallakha, is in the inventive hands of the Jews preposterously flexible by comparison. Sharia is a straightjacket for the society it governs, though one of a respectably high order by the standards of world history.

Some Muslims, most famously the secular nationalists who have run Turkey since Kemal Attaturk's post-WWI revolution, have faced this fact squarely and given up on it as a basis for modern society. This was what the Shah of Iran was trying to do when so rudely interrupted by the Ayatollah Khomeini. To greater or lesser degrees, it is what other Muslim societies have done, with Syria, Malaya, Indonesia and Iraq in the vanguard. The opposite extreme is represented by Iran and Saudi Arabia, and was represented by Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

The rigidity of sharia prevents the dynamic legal, and thus political, order of the West from emerging, but the rigidity of sharia is only its first problem. **Its other problem is that by making statutory law a direct dictate from God, it allows no philosophical, as well as practical, room for a secular state. We know this principle as the separation of church and state, which confers two essential benefits:

  1. It protects the state from corruption by religion, enabling politics to proceed on its own terms and solve its own problems without getting caught up in religious dogma.

  2. It protects religion from corruption by the state, preserving the ability of the spiritual sphere to be true to itself without succumbing to the temptation of resort to coercion in matters of faith.**

Christianity teaches that one should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. This enables Christians to make a clear distinction between the goods of this earth, which an intelligent atheist can discern and figure out how to obtain, and the metaphysical good of salvation, which is made known to us by revelation. The culmination of the pursuit of goods of the first kind is politics, of the second, religion. Reasoning about these two goods can go on independently because they are by nature different in kind. But when religion and politics are conflated, we run the risk of policy being made on a basis of dogma and of faith becoming an object of coercion.

This is precisely the predicament that Islam creates for nations that imbibe it deeply. To say that the earthly ruler is, as in classical Islam, the regent of God on earth is to step back in political philosophy to what were in the West the days of divine right monarchy. This is a stage prior to all the philosophical ideas that underpin democracy, individual rights, personal freedom, legitimate dissent, and the other essentials of modernity. And as Huntington points out, classical Islam rejects the idea of national sovereignty, the basic building-block of modern international order. It is only really comfortable with the ummah, or community of all believers.

There are also disturbing aspects about Islam purely as a religion, independent of any social consequences. For example, its conception of paradise with the 70 virgins, et cetera, is, to be quite blunt, repulsively crude and I do not think this is just a Western bias. Everything I have gathered in conversation with representatives of other traditions suggests to me that a serious Buddhist, Hindu or Chinaman finds this equally unattractive. The ultimate end of man should not be a teenage fantasy. It is, of course, a wonderful myth for motivating young men to become killers.

The principal case that Islam is not a defective civilization is that there exist Muslim nations that have not become societies pathological in one way or another. Logically, this cannot include nominally Muslim nations like Turkey that have rejected Islam as a basis for social order. Take Morocco, for example, not a place of great political trouble by Third-World standards, though the usual suspects are certainly trying. Some experts on Islam will tell you that Morocco exhibits the closest thing found on earth today to traditional Islam, it being the case that the nominally purer societies like Saudi Arabia in fact practice a puritanical variant, the now-notorious Wahabbism, that derives from innovations of the 18th century. Morocco had a relatively unbroken social continuity despite colonization and decolonization, and has since had a traditionalist but unfanatical monarchy practicing benevolent authoritarianism. It cooperates with the United States.

The example of Iraq, a highly secularized Muslim country that exhibits extreme political pathology, makes clear that secularism is no guarantee of reasonableness for Muslim societies. The counter-argument to this, in turn, is that Iraq is still a society formed by Islam, if not currently practicing it with great enthusiasm, and it is due to Islam that it failed to develop into a democracy or some other reasonable form of government.

It is probably true that human beings can, if they put their minds to it, put a politically reasonable gloss on any religion. But this is only true as a matter of bare principle; what they will actually tend to do when given a certain religious starting point is another matter entirely. And on these grounds it seems fair to conclude, simply as an empirical matter, that Islam has a disturbing tendency not to measure up to the standards of modern civilization. Whether an Islamic Reformation analogous to the Christian one can set this problem aright is a matter of speculation, but there is every reason for us to wish for one.

Roman Bhaijan, I wont bother with the Locke article, because anything you find attractive (intellectually or otherwise) is probably a piece of crap. The term spirituality for me means having spirited conversation with my friends and having some spirit to swallow some of the nonsense that comes out of their mouths.

You are pushing my buttons again. I fell for the trap last time, but not this time. What a waste of a night! I went to the party to meet women, I ended up listening to your crap.

Romeo, I alone am equal to 12 Indian chicks – and this not even including Chaltahai. I am offended really that you would rather be with chicks than with your buds. You are an idiot.

At least the chicks can get their butt up.

"The term spirituality for me means having spirited conversation with my friends and having some spirit to swallow some of the nonsense that comes out of their mouths."

MeiN qurbaan jaooN aap kee lafazi pay. See what I mean when I say "The delicacies of your elusive metaphor-ism".

Romeo, I will make up for the spirit at the next gettogether. You are deeper than Nietzsche man.

It is my luck that I always end up with freaking philosophers as friends.

Chaltahai yaar, you are alright man. Let's make sure we bring chicks with us to entertain Roman when we meet at the next Mehfil.

Who's Mehfil and how deeper is she?

I'll make sure next time I leave early enough not to get stressed of the traffic over the George-******-Washington bridge while you prepare to give me more entertaining deeper side of yours.

Roman: Everytime I think you are close to converting you prove me wrong with your 2 century B.C. ways. My problem with not speaking up was not out of smugness (although it is quite possible considering the company) but due to the fact that a kafir cannot get a word in edgewise when in the company of fanatics like you two.

Chaltahaism is the way of the future..

And my problem with you two bozos is that you'd take the side of the "unpopular" to prove how much friggin' antagonistic libral you're to friggin' push the buttons of innocent and gullible people like me with mediocre intelligence and meagre knowledge.

I agree, I should convert to Chaltahai-ism but I'm not sure kay uss say hamaray mann ko Shaanti ya Aasha (most preferrably both) milay gee. Milay gee?

You guys are the desi (and a bit more philosophical) version of the 3 stooges :D

Rama: Part of the free will mantra we adhere to is the belief that anyone can be belittled. No matter how meager their knowledge and gullibility.

As I said before....shaanti and aasha are the fringe benefits along with your very own aashiq if you like.

Fraud Bahijan, We don’t think of ourselves as 3-stooges just because we have one amongst us.

Romeo, you want Shanti, you got it man. Pathwari is coming, and the Mehfil next Saturday with Chaltahai, we will give you all the Shanti you can handle. Pathwari is bringing a Dutch Shanti with him. Can you handle that?

Chaltahai, while Roman is having Shanti you and I will go for a drink, and I promise I will give you chance to say a few words. Actually, I can finally say a few words myself. Man, we will talk. Man to man.

Roman bhai, you can have Asha but you can't get Shanti until you do Puja very well...that is the catch in converting to Chalthaism. He is not going to tell you that up front.

bhaee aap jitna marzi belittle kareiN, hameiN koi masla nahi hai. Lekin aap sahi reasons pay belittle kareiN, ghalt ones pay nahi.

Allah miaN aap kob shaanti, aasha, aur wajanti maala day. Ameen.

Roman,before you start jumping at the easiness of getting Shanti and Asha through Puja let me warn you about another caveat.

Before you do Puja, you will have to have a large Deepak and some oil and lite it up. After you are done with Puja you will have to blow it (Deepak) off too.
Nothing is easy in this world.

... aur iss tarah say ChannMahi nay bhi beech meiN kood kar apna tharak poora kar liya.

[quote]
Islam, on the other hand, particularly in the minds of its most fanatical adherents, seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening.
[/quote]

Extremely astute observation, but the rest of the article went downhill.. yet another 'westerner' failed to find the real source of the problem with Islam.

"I really wonder some times.....Hum loag dozakh ki kis aag mai jalein gaye...."

Let me ask u what is greater 1 , 10 , 50 , 90, .....or infinity ...If there is a probability of .0000001% of that being true heven/hell/islam/ ...any of them then I would reittarate my expression that I used above.