Dear dee dee

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Dear dee dee,
this is in response to your reply in another thread. i was shocked to see you could believe in extreme or any of the molvis, without any investigation on your part.

  • " and persue not, that thou hast no knowledge of ; the hearing, the sight, the heart, all of those shall be questioned. "*
    ( the koran,chapter 17, sons of israel, verse 37 )

this is response to your statment that there is no need of a prophet after mohammad. this , however, please know, is not to confront your beliefs. This is just another side of the story. If i’m following the wrong faith, please point out my errors and help me follow the right path.

you said that there is no need of a prophet after prophet mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him. i disagree to this belief.

religiously,

** Joseph brought you the clear signs before, yet you continued in doubt concerning what he had brought to you, until, when he persished, you said, “god will never send forth a messenger after him”. The same way, god leads astray the prodigal and the doubter. Those who dispute, concerning verses of god, without any authority from god, very hateful is that in the sight of god and believers; and god sets a seal on every heart, proud and arrogant.**
( chapter 40, the believers, verse 35, 36 )

** And whoso obeys Allah and his Messenger shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed his blessings, viz: the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs and the Righteous, and excellent companions are these.**
( the koran, chapter four, women, verse 70 )

0 children of Adam, -if Messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing My Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.
37. But those who reject Our Signs and turn away from them with disdain, -these shall be the inmates of the Fire; they shall abide therein.
( the koran, chapter 7, the battlements, verse 36, 37 )

rationally,

how can you support such a belief that although human mind continues to evolve, allah will not teach him any further?
true koran is the final law, does this mean that no prophet shall come? And if no prophets shall come, and no one is needed after prophet mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, then why is there a need for jesus to descend from the sky to spread islam?

take a look at the muslim world today, and question yourself. Do we need a reformer or not? keeping in mind, that we have been promissed for a reformer! had there been no need of a new teacher, the promise for a reformer must not have been made.

Prophet mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, himself made prophecies about a time when islam will lose its glory, and then a reformer will restore its glory and bring eminance to islam. had there been no need of a teacher, no such prophecy had been made.

i realize, that i might be wrong. i am looking forward to a reply. if i’m wrong, then i need to be corrected.

( p.s. this thread is solely meant for dee dee and copied and pasted essays by extreme, abdullah, abrar will not be welcomed. )

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Aslam-o-Alaikum!

Well, Jewels, I don't deny that we are promised that a reformer will come. But I believe in Imam Mehdi. He will come.

About the prophet Mohammad [PBUH], let me explain it with reference to the first kalima La elaha ella Allah, Mohammad Rasol Allah

Let me explain the meaning of MOHAMMAD RASOL AL ALLAH:

A confession with our hearts that we have to say, "O Allah! I testify that Mohammad [Peace be upon him] is your Messenger." That means none has the right to be followed after Allah, but the Prophet Mohammad [Peace be upon him]*as he is the **last* of His Messengers. As Allah said:-

Mohammad [peace be upon him] is not the father on any man amongst you but he is the Messenger of Allah and the **last* (end) of the Prophets and Allah is Ever All Aware of everything.* (V. 33:40)

And whatsoever that Messenger Mohammad (Peace be upon him) gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it. (V.59:7)

And Allah said: *Say (O Mohammad PBUH) (to mankind) 'if you (really) love Allah, then follow me. * (V. 3:31)

As for the others than Mohammad (peace be upon him their statements are to be taken or rejected as to whether these are in accordance with Allah's book (i.e., Quran) or with the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) or not.

When we talk about the main pillars of Islam, what are they:

  1. To testify that there is no true God but Allah and that Mohammad [peace be upon him] is His Last Messenger and the seal of prophets.
  2. To perform Prayers (5 times a day)
  3. To pay ZAKAT
  4. To fast during the month of Ramadhan
  5. To perform Hajj.

Again testifying that Mohammad [peace be upon him] is the last prophet comes on the first no.

Islam is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and guidance which Allah revealed to all His prophets, like Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, David, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Them). But the message which was revealed to prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) is Islam in its comprehensive, complete and final form.

*THE FUNDAMENTAL ARTICLES OF FAITH IN ISLAM( THE BELIEF): *

The true faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:

  1. Believes in one God Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, The Creator and The Provider, He begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none equal or comparable unto Him.

  2. Believes in all Messengers of Allah without any discrimination among them, as every known nation has a Warner or messenger from Allah. They were chosen by Allah to teach humanity and deliver His Divine message. The Qur'an mentions the name of some of them, and Mohammad(Peace Be Upon Him) stands as the last messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood.

  3. Believes in all original scriptures and revelations of Allah, accepting them as the guiding light that the messengers received to show their respective people the right path to Him. In the Qur'an,special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses,David and Jesus (Peace Be Upon Them), but long before the revelation of the Qur'an to Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) some of these books and revelations had been lost or corrupted. The only authentic and complete book of Allah in existence today is the Qur'an, which has been preserved as it was revealed to prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) in its pristine,pure form.

A prophet is a person who tells us the words of Allah. I agree in this age we do need a reformer but not prophet because in the light of Quran and Sunnah we don't need any other prophet because Islam has already been completed. But reformer, yes we need him and we are still waiting for that person to come.

PHEW :)

Jewels ji, the main difference between your and mine beliefs is I assume that ahmadies deny the first kalima. Anyway, this is what I believe.
I just wrote what you asked for. :)and some of things are what I quoted from authentic books.

One thing more, about Jesus. Well, i think that when he'll come to this world he won't bring anything new with him. He will just guide his ummat the right path, with the same Quran and same Sunnah.

Islam is for all the times. The rules and orders apply to all the ages.

Oh!! and about my agreeing with Mr Xtreme. I offer my apology, I shouldn't believe in someone without having full knowledge from both sides. But if anyone can provide us with the facts then maybe that will help us in changing our minds.

[This message has been edited by Dee Dee (edited June 08, 1999).]

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( * Jewels ji, the main difference between your and mine beliefs is I assume that ahmadies deny the first kalima.*

jewels: * la ilaaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah *
** there is no god but allah, and mohammad (peace and blessings of allah be upon him) is his messenger. ** )

Positive reply! :)
atleast now we prove differing opinions do not always result in fights. its all about how civilized the critics are. :)
okay, although we both agree that the message revealed to prophet mohammad was in the best, complete, and final form, yet we also agree that to further elaborate this message, a reformer must arrive.

---- ** The reformer: **

We start off with a point to which we agree :)

  • I don't deny that we are promised that a reformer will come. But I believe in Imam Mehdi. He will come.*

True. But how will the reformer be chosen? by general election? :)obviously not! We all know that he will be informed by allah, that allah has chosen him as the promissed reformer. The reformer must talk to allah to seek guidance in all he does. he will not make decisions through referendum. :)he will be guided by allah.

** Imam ** is the person whom we all must follow. ** Mehdi ** means the one who takes guidance from a superior authority, and guides others, based on what he himself has been guided.
This means Imam mehdi is someone whom all must follow, and who takes guidance from allah and tells it to people.
now keeping in mind the above sentence, view your true statment:

  • A prophet is a person who tells us the words of Allah. *

This means imam mehdi must be a prophet, by your own defition :) Although you believe both my above points, you still disagree to call him a prophet, which reminds me of an old story.

There used to be a king who loved his horse. Once the horse got sick, and the physicians said it'd die. The king said, ** Be warned! If someone says the horse is dead i will kill him *. they tried their best, but couldnt save the horse. the companions and courtiers were in trouble. they thought of a way to tell the king the horse is dead. they caught a pedestrian and asked him to do so. * Get killed by the kig, or we'll kill you anyway. *. the pedestrain had no choice. He went to the king and said, * Lo! your horse is healthy! *. The king asked him how he knew. * It was in severe pain, moving in unrest, and suddenly he's really calm! His heart was beating so hard, and now its not beating at all! it's healthy! *. the king said, * why dont you tell me straight away that the horse is dead? ** .. the wise man replied, ** i did not say it! you said it! **

Its all the same. Although all muslims believe that it is a must to follow the promissed reformer, and that he will receieve the words of allah and tell them to people, but when we call him a prophet, you say, ** i did not say it! you said it! ** :)

There is no example of a person who is an ** imam ** as well as a ** mehdi ** and yet he is not a prophet!

----- ** the kind of prophethood which is open: **

  • One thing more, about Jesus. Well, i think that when he'll come to this world he won't bring anything new with him. He will just guide his ummat the right path, with the same Quran and same Sunnah.*

This means that such prophets are allowed to come, who "wont bring anything new with" them. The prophets who "will just guide people to the right path with the same koran and sunnah." such prophets can come.
And thats exactly what the ahmedis believe!
So mirza ghulam ahmed of qadian claims to be such a prophet who does not bring anything new with him, and guides the people with the same koran and sunnah! you yourself have agreed that such a prophet is allowed.

this is in exact accordance with the koranic verse:

** And whoso obeys Allah and his Messenger shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed his blessings, viz: the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs and the Righteous, and excellent companions are these.**
( the koran, chapter four, women, verse 70 )

Here, the four spiritual gifts have been promissed only to the followers of Mohammad, and not to the followers of prophets other than him. which clearly shows that the finality of religion means that whatsoever prophet now comes must be a follower of mohammad, his koran, and sunnah. Which is in accordance with the point you made, and which makes sure such prophethood which brings no new law will continue.

---- ** Meaning of the kalima, the pillars of islam : **

You have said a few times that the phrase ** muhammadur rasoolullah ** means mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, is the ** last ** messenger. However this is not the case. Kalima is the basic belief of islam. and it merely states Muhammad is the prophet of allah! ** last ** ka koi ziker nahee hai! hai, to bataain which word in the kalima means ** last **? Kalima is simple enough arabic to be understood by anyone who speaks urdu.

Upon five pillars of islam, are kalima, nimaz, roza, zakat and hajj. Kalima, as explained earlier, is not:
** la ilaaha illallah muhammdun khatum un nabiyeen **
it is:
** la ilaaha illallah muhammadur rasulallah! **
There is no mention of finality~ because followers of all prvious prophets have stuck to a belief that there wont be any more prophet. allah says its a false beleif:

Joseph brought you the clear signs before, yet you continued in doubt concerning what he had brought to you, until, when he persished, you said, "god will never send forth a messenger after him". The same way, god leads astray the prodigal and the doubter. Those who dispute, concerning verses of god, without any authority from god, very hateful is that in the sight of god and believers; and god sets a seal on every heart, proud and arrogant.
( chapter 40, the believers, verse 35, 36 )

Similarly, the beleifs of a muslim you have pointed out, you have mentioned that mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, must be believed as a last messenger. which is not agreed upon by the eeman e mufassil taught by the prophet. It says,
* i believe in allah, and his angels, and his books, and his messengers, and the last day, and that all good and bad is from allah, and in life after death *
No mention of finalty of prophethood.

---- meaning of "khatamun nabiyyeen" :

** Mohammad [peace be upon him] is not the father on any man amongst you but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets **original text * khatam un nabiyeen *** and Allah is Ever All Aware of everything. (V. 33:40) **

** Mohammad [peace be upon him] is not the father on any man amongst you but he is the Messenger of Allah and the SEAL OF PROPHETS ( the correct meaning of the arabic word) and Allah is Ever All Aware of everything. (V. 33:40) **

( First of all, Before getting any further into this discussion, please read the context of this verse you posted. )

Molvi interpretation:

The unbeleievers mock at allahs prophet saying he does not have a male son. Allah says, you talk about physical sons? this prophet will not even have any spiritual sons!!

Ahmedi interpretation:

Allah tells the unbelievers through the koran, that you always mock at my prophet, saying he is no son! but my prophet cares not about physical sons, he will have spiritual sons! thus all prophets that have already come, or will come, will be under his seal!

Dear dee dee, which one will you chose? atleast i will chose the second one! support fot the ahmedi interpretation is found in the koranic verse:

** And whoso obeys Allah and his Messenger shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed his blessings, viz: the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs and the Righteous, and excellent companions are these.**
( the koran, chapter four, women, verse 70 )

Okay you might say that * khatam un nabiyeen * means last of the prophets. I have a reply.

we all know that * bahadur shah zafar * was the last mughal empror, but not the best. right? now go to some arabic speaking person, and say that bahadur shah zafar is ** khatamul salateen e mughliya ** and watch his reaction!
i tried it out! and the molvi saab said, no! it is not right to say this! he couldnt however tell me why this word changes its meaning for prophet mohammad then!

if you still argue that khaatam means ** last ** then:

** "I AM THE LAST OF THE PROPHETS AND YOU ARE THE LAST OF THE PEOPLES" **
(Sahih Muslim)

Does this mean that there will be no more people after those who were at the time of prophet mohammad? if there can be, then it means there can be more of prophets too!

Dee dee, resham ho ya khaddar, guz to baraabar hi naapta hai! :)to khatam ka matlab agar aik jagah ** last ** hai to doosri jagah usee sentence main badal gayaa?

  • "INNEE AAKHIRUL ANBIYAAI WA INNA MASJIDEE AAKHIRUL MASAAJID" *

** I AM THE LAST OF THE PROPHETS AND MY MOSQUE IS THE LAST MOSQUE.**
(Sahih Muslim, Kitabul Haj Fazlis Salaat, p. 531)

So if you say that there is no prophet after prophet mohammad, peace and blessings of allah be upon him, then you also have to believe that no mosque has been built after masjid-e-nabwi! :)

----- ** final comment: **

As the end to my essay, i will give some already posted ** strong ** koranic evidence which favours the coming of more prophets:
0 children of Adam, -if Messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing My Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve. But those who reject Our Signs and turn away from them with disdain, -these shall be the inmates of the Fire; they shall abide therein.
( the koran, chapter 7, the battlements, verse 36, 37 )

If i take your meaning of kalima, and your meaning of khaatam un nabiyeen, disbelieving in any more prophets, then this verse promises me a painful reward.

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**Salam aur Walaykum salam! **

Dee Dee, Jewels has given you an excellent reply. To elaborate his message more, I would like to add few words, this might clear up your questions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::1): ** Well, Dee Dee you said that ***“…I don’t deny that we are promised that a reformer will come But I believe in Imam Mehdi. He will come” *** again you said “…yes we need him and we are still waiting for that person to come” Now I have to ask you first to present the characteristics of your Promised Reformer. The usual concept of the main stream Muslims is that Allah will appoint him and the Allah will strengthen his rank and task by revelations. Do you agree with this?? if YES, then quote a single person from the history who has been appointed by Allah and whom God has revealed and he is not a Prophet. The Promised one should be of Prophetic nature otherwise your theory of Imam Mehdi is unquestionably invalid.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::2): the Kalima you presented is the one which is presented by our paki-sunni getto, like the way they presented the meaning of “PAKISTAN” – Pakistan ka matlab kya, la e la ha ill lal’lah. This is now tattooed on every child’s mind that Pakistan means so. Similarly when I was young my maulvi sahib taught me that the meaning of Kalima is “…aur mohammad Allah kay akhari aur pyaray rasool hain” Please Dee Dee grow up, where exactly you people find the word “last” in that arabic text. “La elaha ella Allah, Mohammad Rasol Allah”, its just a mere interpretation on the basis of the verse Khatam Un Nabeeyeen. So sad you change everything where Holy Prophet’s name is scribed, just because of that “SINGLE VERSE”.

Well I think you are new here, you are most welcome to share the critiques, but first I want to ask you too the same question which I put to everyone in every posts – my question is get me just one verse from the whole Quran which supports that verse Khatam un Nabeyeen meaning “LAST PROPHET” and I will revert to your Islam
There is no authenticity of this false belief in the whole Quran. Prove it, if you can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::3): Now the verse you presented (V.59:7), can you please tell me in the light of this verse what our Beloved Prophet said about Imam Mehdi?? - “jab imam mehdi aain to ager ghutnoo kay bal bhi jana pray to ja kay un ko ko mera salam kahna” (not exact words) This statement of Rasool Allah is not against the above quranic verse, is it?? well the Imam Mehdi is a glad tiding from Mohammad(sa) and is not in anyway against the Quran and Sunnah. I think you quoted this verse because of our belief in Prophet after Holy Prophet(sa). well Jewel has presented you the verse which says that .. if messengers come to you..accept him. How can you deny that clear verse.???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::4): ***And Allah said: Say (O Mohammad PBUH) (to mankind) 'if you (really) love Allah, then follow me. (V. 3:31) *** Ok if this is interpreted in literal meaning than it is very evident that there is no need to follow Imam Mehdi or anyone else - PERIOD. but may I ask one thing, why your ulemas says that believe in Imaam Mehdi is must and his denier is a kafir??. And Why they insist to follow the “Davidic Messiah”. Isn’t this a hypocritic statement?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::5): In reply to the pillars of Islam you have presented, again it says to testifies the Kalima, - the word “Last” is deliberately added in it. isn’t?? Let me put my question in this way, what Allah says about Muslims beliefs is;

  • “04: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and in the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger, and the Book which he revealed before it. And whoso disbelieve in Allah and His Angles, and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last day, has surely strayed forever”*. [04:137]

Now these are your beliefs. Among humans only Prophets are mentioned to be obeyed and be followed. In the light of Quran where will you fit your Imam Mehdi???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

:::6): Dee Dee says: “Again testifying that Mohammad [peace be upon him] is the last prophet comes on the first no. Islam is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and guidance which Allah revealed to all His prophets, like Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, David, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Them). But the message which was revealed to prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) is Islam in its comprehensive, complete and final form”.

We absolutely accept this ideology. There is no need to deny. The Fundamental articles of faith you have presented is what our faith is. He(sa) is the Final Law bearing Prophet, no doubt about it, no new Shariah will ever come to abrogate it. This is a very erroneous misconception about our Jama’at that we have a separate Quran a separate Kalima and a separate self crafted Prophet and pose him superior to Prophet Mohammed(sa).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

  1. Dee Dee says: ***“the main difference between your and mine beliefs is I assume that ahmadies deny the first kalima”. ***

Let me put the main differences of our Jama’at with the mainstream Muslims first.
a) Holy Prophet is the Last law bearing Prophet and the seal of all prophets.
b) Imam Mehdi is of prophetic class and not an Ordinary Man
c) Jesus died a Natural Death and not ascended to heaven.
There is nothing beside of this, and these three issues can also be logically debated in the light of Quran and Sunnah.

As far as the fundamental beliefs or act of worship is concerned, Ahmadi-Muslims have neither taken anything out nor added any thing new to the religion of Islam. The Ahmadi-Muslims make their declaration of faith by reciting the same Kalima which was recited by the Prophet Mohammed(SA) himself; they say their Prayers and Fast in the same manner as the Holy Prophet(SA) of Islam did; and their Qibla -the Ka’ba; their Azan and their are Quran all exactly the same as that of the other Muslims.

Anything pertained to us is undoubtedly fallacious.

Coming to the reply, the meaning of kalima which is translated very sincerely is the main basis of our faith, viz;
“La elaha ella Allah, – None is worth of worship except Allah
Mohammad Rasol Allah” – Mohammad(sa) is the Messenger of Allah

and here is the main theme of our faith in the original words of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad – the reformer of the time;

“humaray mazhab ka khulasa aur lub-e-lubaab yay hai kay -La e laha ill lal’lah Mohammad’Rasol Allah- . hamara aetiqaad jo hum is deenwi zindagi main rakhtay hain jiss kay saath hum bafazal-e-taufeeq bari tala, is aalam-e-guzraan say kooch kerain gay, yay hai kah Hazrat Syeddna Maulana Mohammah Mustafa (sa) khatam’un’nabeeyeen-o-khair’ul’mursaleen hain, jin kay haath say kamal-e-deen ho chuka aur wo naimet ba-mertaba itmam pahunch chuki jiss kay zerya say insaan rahay-raast ko ikhteyaar ker kay Khuda tala tuk pahunch sakta hai. Aur hum pukhtay yaqeen kay saath is baat per eeman rakhtay hain kay Quran Shareef, Khatam-ul’kutb samavi hai aur aik shosha ya aik nukta is ki sharah aur hudood aur ahkaam aur awamer say zeyada nahin ho sakta, aur na kum ho sakta hai. Aur ab koi aisi wahee ya aisa ilhaam manjanib Allah nahin ho sakta jo ahkaam-e-furqaanee ki termeem ya tanseekh ya kissi aik hukm ki tabdeeli ya taghyeer ker sakta ho. Ager koi aisa khayaal keray to wo humaray nazdeeq jamaat-e-momin say kharij aur mulhad aur kafir hai.”

PHEW - its so mushkil to type urdu and epecially this type of urdu.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

8)Dee dee says “..One thing more, about Jesus. Well, I think that when he’ll come to this world he won’t bring anything new with him. He will just guide his ummat the right path, with the same Quran and same Sunnah.
Islam is for all the times. The rules and orders apply to all the ages”.

Now my question about Jesus; Think before you say.

When he will come to this world (some believe as a Prophet some believe as an ummatti – but all agree that He will be for Islam) will he read the same verse from the Holy Quran,

** …wa rasoolann illa bani isreal – and he is a messenger sent to the children of Israel.** [3:50]

Dee Dee change the Quran or change yourself. Dont play around with Allah and Rasool. If you really have to hate us, then please first ask Allah if your hatred is justifiable, if not them dont deprive yourself from this fountain.

As far as Jesus assention is concerned, I have posted a note in reference to incidence of Miraj,
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/000467.html
both of these incidences are argued in the light of Quran…Please share your critique. This will help you review your basic Islamic Mythologies. A human, even one invested with a prophethood cannot ascend up in the sky.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~

One more thing before I leave, if Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(ra) was a forged person then think why Allah has blessed him and his community so much, why we are flourishing by leaps and bounds. (just take for an example, last year 10,000,000 people entered the fold of Islam by this community and this year the expected baiths will be double or so) every year the number doubles so if this continues by this rate within your life time you will see the truth. Think !

If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (ra) was really a fabricate person- Then you must ponder on this verse of Al-Haqqa –chapter 69
45.and if he(sa) has forged and attributed any sayings to Us
46.We would, surely, have seized him by right hand,
47.and then, surely, We would have cut his life-vein.

this is what the punishment for Rasool Allah(sa) was, if he has ever tried to attributed anything which Allah has not said to him, (though this verse is in support of Holy Prophet’s true claimant). Just imagine if a lame person make some claim attributing it to Allah, what will be the consequences. Look at the end result of all those false claimants of Messiah’s, do they or their followers still exists. Their names are only left as a sign of curse. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference. Tell me will he or his followers dare to survive more than 100 years. Is there any exception in Allah’s words (For some of you YES, because you believe that we are funded by British’s and Israelities who are much powerful than Allah.)

My sincere advise is that please dont degrade your religion, previous religions has been blessed with so many reformers in the form of Prophets, why do you want yourself to be deprived of that?

If you are so much desperate for a Reformer to come and insist to deny the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad then please first ask Allah “if this person is wrong then O Allah please protect me from his evil plans and if he is sincerely and true than please let not be me among the astrayed ones”

And Allah for sure never misguide the righteous ones.

This is my whole story in short, I am not a born Ahmadi, I entered this fold of Islam few years back through the guidance of Allah and by going through the Quran and Sunnah by myself. Through this personality I have found My beloved Holy Prophet(sa) and My Allah. My Heart is content and that all I need. at least now I will not die as a disbeliever.

wa’salam

Zalim ::: [email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 09, 1999).]

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Okay... Now what I have noticed after reading your point of view is, BOTH OF US BELIEVE IN SAME THINGS... But you see them from your own prespective; and I, from mine. :)

And shall I make one thing clear, I am not among those who start believing in every other movli without confirming their authenticity, nor I am among those who start imposing Islam on the others. I have read Quran very closely, I read tafseer. I believe in the words of Allah and Mohammad (peace be upon him), not in others. Maybe I am wrong at some points but I confirm it from Quran and Hadith first before believing in whatever I hear.
Okay now coming to what you have written in your post... :)

Good to know that you believe in first Kalima. :)

  1. Reformer

The reformer must talk to allah to seek guidance in all he does.

Agree, but not the type of talk Prophets Mohammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham (peace be upon them) used to have. See, these prophets we sent to the nations who didn't know what is Islam. They were sent to spread Islam. They were sent to tell the non-believers to stop believing in idols etc. at that time the non-believers didn't have any knowledge whatsoever about Allah and His religion. So they were given wahies in order to teach people the words of Allah. Now that reformer can talk to Allah like many pious people do, they meet Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) in dreams and some lucky people get the chance to talk to Allah Almighty.
When we all believe Islam is completed, Quran is the last Book of Allah. Then I don't understand how we can believe that someone will ever get wahie like prophets.

*Its all the same. Although all muslims believe that it is a must to follow the promissed reformer, and that he will receieve the words of allah and tell them to people, but when we call him a prophet, you say, i did not say it! you said it! *

:) :) :)
You know what, reformer is a reformer he can't take place of Prophet. Okay, if we look back in time there are so many pious people, like Data Ganj Bukhsh (Rehmat Allah elaihe) and many more but they never said that they were Prophets. Although they were close to Allah. Agar woh chahtay to woh bhi nabi honay ka dawaa kar saktay thay. There are so many moajzas related with them. Magar we still call them pious people of Allah because they were not Nabis.
Okay tell me one moajza related with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with authentic proofs.

  1. Jesus:

This means that such prophets are allowed to come, who "wont bring anything new with" them. The prophets who "will just guide people to the right path with the same koran and sunnah." such prophets can come.

Now to tell you one thing, I am sure you know it, that Jesus is not dead. He is alive. He came into this world before Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). Woh utha lieye gaey thay, he didn't die. Now this is the difference between Islam and Christianity, they think he was hanged. But what we believe is that he was not.

*And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah" - But they have killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *

6

Zalim ji… I just read your post…

Can’t answer it today…will do it tomorrow…

In the mean time, read my post and tell me if I said something wrong and quoted something else outside Quran and Sunnah.

Read my comments about the Kalima in both the posts.

If you still think that I am saying something made by my mind, you can go to site
www.alharamain.org

Allah hafiz,
DD.

[This message has been edited by Dee Dee (edited June 09, 1999).]

7

Dee Dee thenkx for the reply, though your comments needs lots of answers, it seems that your knowledge about Islam as well as Christianity and Jewism is quite defective.

If time permits I will certainly reply you in detail step by step. I apologize if I cant.

the meaning of Khatam in the light of Quran / sunnah and other scholors will be posted again on other threads before i leave.

May Allah be your Hafiz

8

[quote]
My sincere advise is that please dont degrade your religion, previous religions has been blessed with so many reformers in the form of Prophets, why do you want yourself to be deprived of that?
[/quote]

First of all i want you to know, Mr. Zalim. I would rather choose to die before even thinking about degrading my religion. And thanks for the sincere advice, even when it was not sought.

[quote]
If you are so much desperate for a Reformer to come and insist to deny the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad then please first ask Allah
if this person is wrong then O Allah please protect me from his evil plans and if he is sincerely and true than please let not be me among the astrayed ones
[/quote]

Thanks again for the advice, I don't want to start another discussion how Allah showed me this path. But I am happy that i got the clear sign from Allah that this is the right path which I am following I don't have to compare my religion with anyother because in my heart I know I am on right path.

[quote]
And Allah for sure never misguide the righteous ones.
[/quote]

yeah I know that very well.

[quote]
at least now I will not die as a disbeliever.
[/quote]

In Sha Allah, nor will I.

[quote]
can you please tell me in the light of this verse what our Beloved Prophet said about Imam Mehdi?? - "jab imam mehdi aain to ager ghutnoo kay bal bhi jana pray to ja kay un ko ko mera salam kahna
[/quote]

I ask for some authentic proof about what you wrote.
As I said before, I don't believe in any other hadith, unless it is authentic.'

ok if you say so that teachings of Isalam have not ended withthe prophet(pbuh)
it means that any time any one can come up witha new change in the religion..
if Mirza sahib says thathe same thing than whats his point..he did the thing which he says is wrong(telling you that he is the prophet)
well give me some innfo on what he really taught..becoz all I hear from you is that he was the prophet after Mohammad (PBUH)

quote every year the number doubles so if this continues by this rate within your life time you will see the truth. Think !
[/quote]

This isn't convining. Look around in the world how many religions are there. Kitnay hi log gumrah ho rahay hain. Kal 10 katal hoay hain to aaj 20 ho jai gay. This is why I say that we need Imam Mehdi to come and tell the world that whatever they are following is wrong except the teachings of Allah and His Beloved Prophet (peace be upon him).

[quote]
Look at the end result of all those false claimants of Messiah’s, do they or their followers still exists. Their names are only left as a sign of curse. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference.
[/quote]

At least I find it Ibrat ka maqam. and it actually helps me in going more towards what I believe.

quote
[/quote]

Please before making any judgements about anyone, especially about religion you should think a thousand times before writing it. I don't give a damn to what amreeki, angrez people are.. they are non-believers, simple. that's why I prefered living in an Islamic country not in USA.

CONTRADICTIONS
I am not quoting any other references, but from your own posts.

1:

you say Mirza Sahib said:

[quote]
Aur hum pukhtay yaqeen kay saath is baat per eeman rakhtay hain kay Quran Shareef, Khatam-ul’kutb samavi hai aur aik shosha ya aik nukta is ki sharah aur hudood aur ahkaam aur awamer say zeyada nahin ho sakta, aur na kum ho sakta hai.
[/quote]

and you said:

[quote]
Jesus died a Natural Death and not ascended to heaven.
[/quote]

And Allah says in Quran:

[quote]
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah" - But they have killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *

So now what do you say????

2:

Mirza sahib farmatay hain:

[quote]
hamara aetiqaad jo hum is deenwi zindagi main rakhtay hain jiss kay saath hum bafazal-e-taufeeq bari tala, is aalam-e-guzraan say kooch kerain gay, yay hai kah Hazrat Syeddna Maulana Mohammah Mustafa (sa) khatam’un’nabeeyeen-o-khair’ul’mursaleen hain, jin kay haath say kamal-e-deen ho chuka aur wo naimet ba-mertaba itmam pahunch chuki jiss kay zerya say insaan rahay-raast ko ikhteyaar ker kay Khuda tala tuk pahunch sakta hai.
[/quote]

And you say:

[quote]
Just imagine if a lame person make some claim attributing it to Allah, what will be the consequences. Look at the end result of all those false claimants of Messiah’s, do they or their followers still exists. Their names are only left as a sign of curse. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference.
[/quote]

And in Quran:

[quote]
Mohammad [peace be upon him] is not the father on any man amongst you but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets and Allah is Ever All Aware of everything. (V. 33:40)
[/quote]

3:

Mirza sahib kay alfaz hain:

[quote]
Aur ab koi aisi wahee ya aisa ilhaam manjanib Allah nahin ho sakta jo ahkaam-e-furqaanee ki termeem ya tanseekh ya kissi aik hukm ki tabdeeli ya taghyeer ker sakta ho. Ager koi aisa khayaal keray to wo humaray nazdeeq jamaat-e-momin say kharij aur mulhad aur kafir hai.
[/quote]

And look here what you said:

[quote]
. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference
[/quote]

Ji ab aap kiya kehtay hain?

I know that I am not a knowledgable person but I believe that whta I believe is true..

[quote]
it seems that your knowledge about Islam as well as Christianity and Jewism is quite defective.
[/quote]

you have no right to make decisions who has the better understandings of all the religions...Allah knows better who is on the right path,
and I think most of the other members on this forum have better knowledge on this so if you are invited so they are also from my side. the rest of your post needs to be answered, and I invite,

Msaqibj, Mr. Xtreme and others to come and support our side.

[quote]
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur) - Al baqarah-7
[/quote]
*

9

Dee Dee,

I would like to thank you for the efforts you have made in your very nice manner to try to guide the followers of Ghulam Mirza and his cult which has been branded outside the pale of Islam by the authentic scholars of Islam.

However, we seem to be going round in circles with the Mirzai and you will find that whatever proofs are presented to them will be dismissed as being wrong interpretations and different meanings.

Their own books are not widely translated, like the Qur'an, and are kept away from the general public so that it is easier to alter them if any discrepancies are found.

I have not seen you here before on this forum, are you a newcomer?

Anyway you are doing a great job so I hope we will see you contributing regularly from now on. After all, we would be failing in our duty to Allah(swt) if we did not try to bring back the Qadianis to Islam and save them from the Hellfire.

May Allah(swt) make them see the light.

10

Some other things which I didn't asnwer:

[quote]
Dee Dee change the Quran or change yourself. Dont play around with Allah and Rasool. If you really have to hate us, then please first ask Allah if your hatred is justifiable, if not them dont deprive yourself from this fountain.
[/quote]

I don't hate you. I disagree with your beliefs..

[quote]
A human, even one invested with a prophethood cannot ascend up in the sky.
[/quote]

ever heard, Allah ki ijazat kay baghair pata nahien hil sakta? if HE could create us, HE can take Mohammad (PBUH) to the heavens and skies.

[This message has been edited by Dee Dee (edited June 09, 1999).]

11

Mr. Xtreme
Your input is highly appreciated. :)

Yes I am a new comer to this forum... I am with you all the way, I will try my best to be regular in this forum.

We can just hope that Allah (SWT) will make them see the right path.

12

Salam Dee Dee,
again thankyou for you sparing some time. I appreciate that.
I dont have time, despite that, I am answering you may be for the last time... If time permits will continue later.. i apologize

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

Thanks again for the advice, I don't want to start another discussion how Allah showed me this path. But I am happy that i got the clear sign from Allah that this is the right path which I am following I don't have to compare my religion with anyother because in my heart I know I am on right path.

[/quote]

A believer is a friend of God but acquiring this blessing is difficult. That is why (the Holy Quran addressing the new converts of the desert) states that you should say, We have submitted rather than saying that, We have believed, (Ch.49,v. 15)”. this verse gives the idea that dont be over confident and be humble always be in search of truth. By stating that “I am on the right path” you are closing all the doors of Taqwa. In fact a true Muslim should always be in pursuit of truth, that why in every prayer while reciting Sura Fatih we ask God to “guide us on the right path”.. please think on this aspect too.. if you dont want, then why reciting unnecessarily.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

*give me some innfo on what he really taught..becoz all I hear from you is that he was the prophet after Mohammad (PBUH) *

[/quote]

If you really wants to know what he taught, then please first try to discover what Imam Mehdi will taught.. then keeping that in mind read any of our books, I will be happy to provide you. I will put few of his quotes on another thread, you might get some idea though. I have already posted some words in the light of rasool allah’s(sa) respect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

*This isn't convining. Look around in the world how many religions are there. Kitnay hi log gumrah ho rahay hain. Kal 10 katal hoay hain to aaj 20 ho jai gay. This is why I say that we need Imam Mehdi to come and tell the world that whatever they are following is wrong except the teachings of Allah and His Beloved Prophet (peace be upon him). *

[/quote]

To judge the authenticity of a faith, 100 years is a very short time span, just for example take a look at when Holy Prophet(sa) announced his office, the people living in his house to the very end of the world turned against him and were become the bitter enemies with in no time, even if you were present at that time, it be for sure very difficult for you to accept him too. Am I right ? You accept him because you have validated his(sa) truth in the light of 1400 years. am I right?? so if you dont want to believe, no harm in it, there is no compulsion in religion.. but the only other thing beside Allah’s guidance which can bring the true color is the time..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

**#1:
you say Mirza Sahib said:
Aur hum pukhtay yaqeen kay saath is baat per eeman rakhtay hain kay Quran Shareef, Khatam-ul’kutb samavi hai aur aik shosha ya aik nukta is ki sharah aur hudood aur ahkaam aur awamer say zeyada nahin ho sakta, aur na kum ho sakta hai.

and you said:
Jesus died a Natural Death and not ascended to heaven.

And Allah says in Quran:
Un Nissa: 157
So now what do you say????**

[/quote]

You forgot to read what I said more, Please go thorough my other thread “LINKED” and share your beliefs. I have mentioned in the light of Quran that neither a human nor a prophet can climb up in the sky..

Let me support my statement in few words, Please can you tell me why Prophet Mohammad(sa) has to go up during Miraj.. as you have sketched the scene “.. aur kundi hil rahi the...” Does your GOD WAS NOT PRESENT WHERE HE WAS SLEEPING THAT NIGHT?? DOES ALLAH HAS A SPECIAL OFFICE IN THE SKY FOR HIS OFFICIAL WORK, DOES YOUR ALLAH HAS A PHYSICAL APPEARENCE?? only a Physical being can move to a Physical one, so as a spiritual one to a spiritual one.
mera khuda to shah rag say zeyada paas hai, aap ka khuda ho ga aasmanoon main kaheen..
Similar is the case of Missing Messiah – the jesus.

You forgot to read what Allah says :

CHAPTER 3 (AL-IMRAN), VERSE 56
*‘Remember the time when Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause thee ‘Mutawaffi-ka’ and ‘Rafe-uka’ thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.’ *

Meaning Of word ‘Mutawaffi’
The word ‘Mutawaffi’ is derived from ‘Tawaffa’. When Allah is the subject and a human being the object, Tawaffa has no other meaning than that of taking away the soul, whether in sleep or death. The word has been used in no less than 25 different places in the Quran and in no less than 23 of them the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of death. Only in two places the meaning is to take away the soul at the time of sleep; but here the qualifying word ‘sleep’ or ‘night’ has been added (Chap. Al-Anam, verse 61 & Chap. Al-Zumar, verse 43). In fact, all Arabic Lexicographers are agreed on the point that the word ‘Tawaffa’ as used in the aforesaid manner, can bear no other interpretation. Outstanding scholars and Commentators like Ibn Abbas, Imam Malik, Imam ibn Hazam, Imam ibn Qayyim, Qatadah, Wahaab and others.

Meaning Of word ‘Rafa’
In the same verse, i.e. Chap-3 (Al-Imran) verse-56, the word ‘Rafa’ signifies raising the status and the rank of a person and honoring him. When the ‘Raf’ of a person is spoken of as being towards Allah, the meaning is invariably his spiritual ascension, because Allah not being material or confined to any place, no physical ascension to Him is possible. The raising of Jesus is mentioned in the verse under comment in reply to the false claim of the Jews that he died an accursed death on the cross. The word has been used in Quran in this sense in the following verses:

  • Chapter 2 (Al-Baqarah), verse 254 - 'These Messengers have We exalted some of them above them above others; among them there are those to whom Allah spoke; and some of them He exalted in degrees of rank. …….'
  • Chapter 7 (Al-Araf), verse 177 - 'And if We had pleased, We would have exalted him thereby; but he inclined to the earth and follow his evil desires. His case, therefore, is like the case of a thirsty dog; if thou drive him away, he hangs out his tongue. Such is the case of the people who disbelieve in Our Signs. So relate to them this narrative that they may reflect.'
  • Chapter 19 (Maryam), verse 58 - ' And We exalted him to a lofty station.'
  • Chapter 24 (Al-Nur), verse 37 - 'This light illumines houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be exalted and that His name be remembered in them. Therein do glorify Him in the mornings and the evenings.'
  • Chapter 35 (Al-Fatir), verse 11 - 'Whoso desire honour, let him know that all honour belongs to Allah. Unto Him ascend pure words, and righteous deeds does He exalt, and those who planned evils - for them is a severe punishment; and the planning of such will perish.'

there are so many more verses in the Quran where the word “RAFA” is used, but no where the meaning your ulemas has scribed means physical ascension, except in the case of Jesus, I wonder why..

even if you know the prayer which is read between the two “sajdas”, it has the same word “wa’rafaani”, meaning ‘ae khuda mujhay izzat day’ , do you think can anyone can become so frustrated after one sajda that he ask God to physically pull him up.

Remember this is a Christian’s doctrine which has been consciously embedded in our faiths and now its has become a part of out ideology.. [Christian don’t believe that he died, its Jews who believe that they have killed Jesus, while Christian says that he was physically ascended up]... Mirza sahib at one occasion says that “** musalmanoo ! yaqeen samjho kay Allah tala nay meray zerya tumhain yay khaber dee hai aur mai nay apna payaam phauncha deya hai, ab is ko sunna na’sunna tumharay ikhteyaar may hai – yay sachi baat hai kay hazrat eesa elah salam wafat pa chukay hain aur main khuda tala ki qasm kha ker kahta hoon kay jo maood aanay wala tha wo mai he hoon aur yay bhi pakki baat hai kay ISLAM KI ZINDAGEE, EESA KAY MERNAY MAY HAI”

I refer you to Allah, to verify that..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

**#2:
Mirza sahib farmatay hain:
hamara aetiqaad jo hum is deenwi zindagi main rakhtay hain jiss kay saath hum bafazal-e-taufeeq bari tala, is aalam-e-guzraan say kooch kerain gay, yay hai kah Hazrat Syeddna Maulana Mohammah Mustafa (sa) khatam’un’nabeeyeen-o-khair’ul’mursaleen hain, jin kay haath say kamal-e-deen ho chuka aur wo naimet ba-mertaba itmam pahunch chuki jiss kay zerya say insaan rahay-raast ko ikhteyaar ker kay Khuda tala tuk pahunch sakta hai.

And you say:

Just imagine if a lame person make some claim attributing it to Allah, what will be the consequences. Look at the end result of all those false claimants of Messiah’s, do they or their followers still exists. Their names are only left as a sign of curse. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference.

And in Quran:
33:40**

[/quote]

the actual verse is;

*"MAA KAANA MUHAMMADUN ABAA AHADIN MIRRIJAALIKUM WALAAKIN RASOOLALLAHI WA KHATAMAN NABIYYEEN..." *
(The Holy Quran, Chapter 33; verse 41 including Bismillah.. as a verse)

The word LAST is deliberately translated by your high rank scholars. And you forgot to reply my question asked earlier.. “GET ME A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE WHOLE QURAN WHICH SUPPORTS THIS CONCEPT OF LAST – and I will rever to your Islam”. chalo kuch to sawab kamaoo.. aik aayat ka he to pooch raha hoon.. harj kya hai dhoondnay main?

First of all the meaning of “KHATAMAN NABIYYEEN” you put in this verse doesn’t fits in there justly, and is grammatically ill-suited. Thus making it unacceptable to an intellectual mind. Try using words like “the SEAL”, “Father of All the Prophets” or any other words which best suits the meaning of the verse in particular and the theme along the corresponding verses in general.

Let me quote what your Maududi sahib (whom you egocentrically follows) says about KHATAM, He being so afraid of Ahmadis that at one occasion he deliberately admit to changed the meaning of KHATAM because of fear of Ahmadis. He said;

[quote]

“Yusuf Ali renders this “the seal of the prophets” and add footnotes to explain the seal here in meaning of sealing the document when it is complete. I would prefer to render “the last of Allah’s Prophet” because the Arabic phrase conveys the two meaning of “last” and “seal” as interchangeable though the one aimed at is clear of the two approaches. To render the verse as “the seal” is to run the risk of utilization by Qadianis”

[Maudidi, A.A; The Problem of Qadianism: Destructive Movements. Three essay on Qadianism: Majliss of Al Haq Publication, Canada Edition: p 41]

[/quote]

This shows that the inborn genetically mutated hatred you people carry in your hearts is not only destroying the generation but in fact it is destroying the words of words of Allah with the passage of time. aztagfayrullah hay rabbi..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

**#3:
Mirza sahib kay alfaz hain:

Aur ab koi aisi wahee ya aisa ilhaam manjanib Allah nahin ho sakta jo ahkaam-e-furqaanee ki termeem ya tanseekh ya kissi aik hukm ki tabdeeli ya taghyeer ker sakta ho. Ager koi aisa khayaal keray to wo humaray nazdeeq jamaat-e-momin say kharij aur mulhad aur kafir hai.

And look here what you said:

. Mirza Sahib Ghulam Ahmad(ra) has openly claimed that Allah has appointed him as the Promised Mehdi and Massiah, repeatedly referred that Allah has sent wahi to him and through out his saying you will find the Allah’s reference

Ji ab aap kiya kehtay hain? **

[/quote]

could you read carefully again that statement of Mirza sahib, please. it say ab koi aisi wahi nahin aasaktee jo allah kay ahkaam ko cancell ker sakay.. he has not abrogated a single jot from the teaching of Quran and Sunnah. .. again I ask what will your Imam Mehdi do?? un kay aanay ka kya maqasid hon gay, kya Khuda un kay ooper wahi nahzil nahin keray ga?? agar nahin to un ko kaisay pta chalay ga kay un ka maqsad kya hai, un ko kerna ky ahai, ?????? do you still think that Islam is as pure as it was revealed to Mohammad(sa). Despite of original text, why there are so many branches in Islam??? then why need a Mehdi.. han? There is a need of a reformer appointed by Allah, and the only way he knows his rank is through "“wahis"”. understand???
It is a very common misconception among people that they consider “wahi” as something which will abrogate or cancel the previous teaching, and the “wahi” means a new religion, and the “wahi” means a new code of life and the ”wahi” means a new book...
There are more than 100,000 Prophets sent to this mankind, were there as much books, were there as much religions. Only in the continuation of Mossic’s religion (Judism) around 22 Prophets (dont know exact figure off-hand) were sent, were they all bought a new religion?? were the teaching of all of them abrogated the Torah?? the answer is NO. they were simply reformers. and whoso Allah chose as a reformer is definitely a Prophet and nothing else. PERIOD
You said “I know that I am not a knowledgable person”, yet you still testify that you have attained your belief in Allah and his Messenger.. Well Allah knows how pure your heart is. I am certainly not the excellent judge. neither I am made any authority on anyone else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[quote]

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur) - Al baqarah-7

[/quote]

You quoted, a verse from Quran to show us that we are dumb and deaf.. fine we dont mind.. can I say something, When you were quoting this verse, have noticed for a sec what have you written just above this verse, let me rewrite it for you.. “...you have no right to make decisions who has the better understandings of all the religions...Allah knows better who is on the right path...,” Dont play around with Allah And Rasool , please. Such irrational remarks/quotes doesn’t make any difference to us. Its good for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lastly I want to conclude this debate and switch you to Jewels..by saying that, Keep waiting for your Mehdi and Messiah, I wish you all the best. but remember you will die and your children will die and their and their children will die and they will not see Jesus descending from the sky nor the appearance of an Imam Mehdi. Then the Allah will make their heart trembling and they will soon give up this faith out of frustration..[that a prophecy, the time of which is promised within 300 years, now 100 years has passed.. so pass on this prophecy to your generation to be remain as witness]

But if you have a sincere heart, you can ask God, there is no harm in it, is it? unless and untill you have decided that you have attained the truth, and no more need to seek the uprightness. I dont know then why you waiting for the Messiah and Mehdi.

One more thing.. When your Messiah will cme, Please ask him to change the some verses from the Quran which says that he was sent for the children of Israel. Otherwise this will humiliate his rank in Mohammed’s reign.

You pursue your purpose and I shall pursue mine, then soon will you know. (Ch.6,v.136). You continue the work of your affairs and I shall continue with mine. You will soon know who (from among us) is the truthful one.
The days are near when every one will be called to submit their aamaals in front of Allah.

shukerya

May Allah be your Hafiz

[PS: I don’t mean to insult or humiliate you in any sense. I apologize if my words are strong]

Zalim ::::: [email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 09, 1999).]

13

I thought this was supposed to be a personal discussion between me and Dee dee, and NOT a for/against thread.

Dee dee, i am still all willing to believe in you. Please, Its not supposed to be a "you're wrong i'm right" kind of thread. All i wanted was to know your point of view and ask myself why i do not believe in it, and how right am i in doing that. And i had wanted it to be a personal discussion rather than an argument between two belief systems.

Please, can you continue the discussion from where we left it through email? it would be very very kind of you.

14

Zalim Sahib:
you started it all. Alhamdolillah, I am firm on what I believe.

And I believe in what I am learning through this discussion.
About Mirza Sahib's quote, I would say, prophets hamesha aam-fehm aur seedhi baat kartay hain. Keh aam logon ki samajh aa jai, na keh ghuma phira kar us kay chaar matlab nikal lain.
I still don't find any convincing approach to start believeing in Mirza Sahib. All I see is Contradictions. Give me a single Quranic verse and a single Hadith which contradicts what He teaches.

[quote]
The word LAST is deliberately translated by your high rank scholars. And you forgot to reply my question asked earlier.. GET ME A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE WHOLE QURAN WHICH SUPPORTS THIS CONCEPT OF LAST and I will rever to your Islam”. chalo kuch to sawab kamaoo.. aik aayat ka he to pooch raha hoon.. harj kya hai dhoondnay main?
[/quote]

You ask for more Quranic verses saying Mohammad (PBUH) is the last prophet, I gave you one. but you changed the meanings. This means if I could provide you with more Quranic verses about this you'd change their meanings too, according to your own beliefs. At the time of Mohammad (PBUH) the non-believers were provided with HOLY QURAN, but they didn't believe it. and they used to change the meanings according to their beliefs. That's exactly I find you doing. Prophet (PBUH) provided them with moajzaat, but they didn't believe it. And I asked for one moajza related with Mirza sahib and you failed to provide it.

Refer to the last sermon of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) on the occassion of Jumat-ul-Widda. If we don't find any thing in Quran we have to search for it in Hadith, and you'll find it quite clear what our beloved Prophet (PBUH) said. And if you still don't believe in it, then you don't believe in Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).

I didn't know much about Ahmadiyat before now, and after reading your posts and comments I now have come to the conclusion that what I believe is true, Alhamdolillah.

You are pointing my mistakes and saying that what I am believing right now is wrong.... Yes, I am just a human I can be wrong, but not my Prophet (PBUH) and Allah (SWT) and I believe in HIM. And I am not wrong in that.

[quote]
To judge the authenticity of a faith, 100 years is a very short time span, just for example take a look at when Holy Prophet(sa) announced his office, the people living in his house to the very end of the world turned against him and were become the bitter enemies with in no time, even if you were present at that time, it be for sure very difficult for you to accept him too. Am I right ?
[/quote]

Well all I can say, Allah hidayat daynay wala hai. If he showed me the right path now then I would have found the right path then too. Being on the right path doens't only mean you start believing in Allah and his Messengers... It actually applies when you start following what they tell you, in the light of Quran and Sunnah of Mohammad (PBUH).

[quote]
You accept him because you have validated his(sa) truth in the light of 1400 years. am I right??
[/quote]

And some poeple don't even believe in him even after 1400 years.

[quote]
You quoted, a verse from Quran to show us that we are dumb and deaf.. fine we dont mind.. can I say something, When you were quoting this verse, have noticed for a sec what have you written just above this verse, let me rewrite it for you.. “...you have no right to make decisions who has the better understandings of all the religions...Allah knows better who is on the right path...,” Dont play around with Allah And Rasool , please. Such irrational remarks/quotes doesn’t make any difference to us. Its good for you.
[/quote]

Mr. Zalim I didn't quote anything out of my own mind, these are the words of Allah. Or you can say that I am twisting the meanings of this verse just to attack you... Just as I am saying you twisted the words of the verse (V. 33:40)

[quote]
Let me support my statement in few words, Please can you tell me why Prophet Mohammad(sa) has to go up during Miraj.. as you have sketched the scene “.. aur kundi hil rahi the...” Does your GOD WAS NOT PRESENT WHERE HE WAS SLEEPING THAT NIGHT?? DOES ALLAH HAS A SPECIAL OFFICE IN THE SKY FOR HIS OFFICIAL WORK, DOES YOUR ALLAH HAS A PHYSICAL APPEARENCE?? only a Physical being can move to a Physical one, so as a spiritual one to a spiritual one.
mera khuda to shah rag say zeyada paas hai, aap ka khuda ho ga aasmanoon main kaheen..
Similar is the case of Missing Messiah – the jesus.
[/quote]

What really do you mean by this: Does your GOD WAS NOT PRESENT WHERE HE WAS SLEEPING THAT NIGHT??
Allah is not my God, Allah is there for everyone, He is the Lord of the ones who believe, He is the Lord of Our Beloved Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)...... As I have said before this waqia was something like Time travel. And nothing is impossible for Allah Almighty.

Apnay Rub ki kin kin haqeeqaton ko jhutlao gay
Now I would say Mr. Zalim GROW UP, for God's sake and for your own sake.
Yeh aasman, zameen, baghaat, pahar, samandar.... Allah sab jagha hai!!! You can't deny that Allah can't do any thing like that... Allah ne Nabion per moajzat utaray, and waqiya-e-Mairaj was a moajza.

[quote]
Mirza sahib at one occasion says that “ musalmanoo ! yaqeen samjho kay Allah tala nay meray zerya tumhain yay khaber dee hai aur mai nay apna payaam phauncha deya hai, ab is ko sunna na’sunna tumharay ikhteyaar may hai – yay sachi baat hai kay hazrat eesa elah salam wafat pa chukay hain aur main khuda tala ki qasm kha ker kahta hoon kay jo maood aanay wala tha wo mai he hoon aur yay bhi pakki baat hai kay ISLAM KI ZINDAGEE, EESA KAY MERNAY MAY HAI
[/quote]

Astaghfir Allah!! This man denied the Quran and Hadith and you say that he was a PROPHET!!!

Look here:

And (remember) when Allah said: "O Isa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the forged statement that, Isa (jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monothesists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, eg., Muhammad Sala Allah Alaihe wasalam, Isa, Musa, or in His Holy Books,] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.

As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a svere torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.

Al-Imran - 55, 56

Tafseer of verse 55 with authentic Hadiths:

1- Narrated Abu Huraira (razi Allah unhu):
Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) said: "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, surely [Isa (jesus)], the son of Amaryam (alaihe Salam) will shortly descend amongst you (Muslims) and will judge mankind justly bu the law of Quran (as a just ruler); he will break the cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizyah (ie., taxation taken from non-Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it" Abu Huraira added: "if you wish, you can recite (this Verse of the Quran): " and there is none of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Chirstians) but must believe in Him * before his [Isa or a Jew's or Christian's] death, and on the day of Resurrection, he [Isa (jesus)] will be a witness againt them. (4:159)

2- Narrated by Abu Hurairah (razi Alla unhu):
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: How will you be when the son of Maryam * descends amongst you, and he will judge people by the Law of Quran and not by the law of Injeel (Gospel)"
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, hadith no. 658)

Now again Quran:

And he [Isa] Shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [ie., Isa's descent on the earth]. Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and His Paradise).

Az-Zukhruf - 61

But Allah raised him [Isa] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise
un-Nissa-158

and if you still say that Isa is dead and he will not come the I will again quote the same Quranic Verse Al. Baqarah -7.

[quote]
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur) - Al baqarah-7
[/quote]

And you shouldn't propagate that you are Muslims because you don't believe in Quran and Hadith.

[quote]
Lastly I want to conclude this debate and switch you to Jewels..
[/quote]

bari dayr say khiyal aaya...

[quote]
Keep waiting for your Mehdi and Messiah, I wish you all the best. but remember you will die and your children will die and their and their children will die and they will not see Jesus descending from the sky nor the appearance of an Imam Mehdi. Then the Allah will make their heart trembling and they will soon give up this faith out of frustration..[that a prophecy, the time of which is promised within 300 years, now 100 years has passed.. so pass on this prophecy to your generation to be remain as witness
[/quote]

We'll see.

[quote]
You pursue your purpose and I shall pursue mine, then soon will you know. (Ch.6,v.136). You continue the work of your affairs and I shall continue with mine. You will soon know who (from among us) is the truthful one.
The days are near when every one will be called to submit their aamaals in front of Allah.
[/quote]

Exactly what I wanted to say.

Jewels you can email me at [email protected]

[This message has been edited by Dee Dee (edited June 10, 1999).]**

15

DD ji :)

as a Muslim brother, this is a sincere advice to you...PLEASE aap us kay saath email par discussion na karein! Issi liye imaam abu hanifa ne aisay ke saath behas karne ki bhi ijaazat nahin dee hai.

wa salaam

Asif

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 10, 1999).]

16

dear asif,
why r u trying to misquoat the great and highly praised pious man: imam abu hanifa. if ms.dd wants to be guided to the right path, what's wrong in it? seeking true knowledge is her right and i really apploud dd's efffort to get the correct knowledge.

17

Excuse me!!!!!!!!!!!

have I ever mentioned that I am seeking the right path and I need Ahmadi's guidence to do so?????????

Mr. Junior member, Who ever you are.... You are very wrong...Aur bachay... pehlay meri posts to parh lain phir koi comment dena.

I know what I believe and I am firm on it.... Yes seeking knowledge is what you can call it, because I want to learn what is Ahmadi's beliefs.... But PLEASE don't make me laugh in this serious discussion.

And Asif thanks for the kind advice. :)
Yeah I would like if we debate on the forum rather than through mail.

[This message has been edited by Dee Dee (edited June 10, 1999).]

18

Roman,

why did you edit my other post in which I advised DD ji?

I all wrote was [trimmed]
and you edited THAT???

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 11, 1999).]

19

Asif - You betcha I did that. And sure enough I will do it again. If you want to discuss something, keep the track of your dialogues impersonal to the point you are making, not towards the memeber of this forum. I won't tolerate any bickering or mud-throwing among two religious groups on this forum, so any statement that I will find having any bit of connotation to that, I will edit/remove it.

20

Are you a Qadiani sympathiser???? If I believe that dialogue wiuth them can weaken one's imaan I will say it and let my Muslim bros. sisters of it too---if you want to edit it it will be no skin off my nose.

I will have done my duty of Amr bil maaroof.wa nahee anil munkir...

the sin will fall on you.

unless of course you consider qadianis as muslims.....do you??

..and by your actions you are letting the Sunnis on this forum find out about your religious 'tolerance' as well; i don't think anything i said was offensive...

**dushman e Ahmad pe shiddat kejiyay

Aisay mulhidon pe la'anat kejiyay

            Ala Hazrat quds sirruhu