Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
^ Haan yehi tho masla hai!!!
She doesn’t admit this is her real reason for leaving. I don’t think she fully realizes it herself. Call it her subconscious thinking.
She argues against Islam from logical standpoints. And of course, she uses philosophical thought-experiments to prove her points. 
I was arguing with her about that the other day. You can’t use ideal examples to explain Islamic laws, since the laws are realist.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Just call her parents and tell them to give her some attention and/or buy her a stereo and a new car. It sounds like that's what she's after
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
You dont make sense.
what logical standpoints you mean?
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Well, actually she doesn't make sense.
Her logical standpoints are, for example...
Why do people get killed for converting out of Islam - I think that one really shook her up this year. She says a religion of compassion and freedom from force is not compatible with killing someone that converts out. I don't know much about apostasy (sp?), so I can't really comment.
Her stances on women's rights being lower - like testimony of 1 woman is .5 of that of a man's. And (I must agree with her on this point), its not like men are smarter than women. Apparently many guys here are dumb blondes as well. (Although I think there is an interpretation of this verse that its overridden by later revelation which addresses legal rights to both women and men by virtue of the gender of the words it uses - again, I do not know much about this).
Polygamy - she thinks there should be polyandry if we are to keep it equal between men and women.
Homosexuality - she says its not in a person's control to be homo. So why should they go to hell for it?
How can God be all-knowing, and all-benevolent, and all-powerful at the same time?
MANY OTHER such questions that I'm so annoyed with arguing about with her.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Has your friend ever bothered looking up the answers to her questions from an Islamic perspective? Ie. has she ever taken time out to read and find out about all the issues/things that bug her about Islam?
If not, then she should, otherwise she is looking for excuses.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
She has. In fact, she was ultra-religious (hijab and everything) 1 year prior to deciding to convert out. I dont know how it happened so suddenly, but it was sudden, and it had a lot to do with her growing friendships with an Irani-German girls who's Irani mother had left her. That girl was very bitter towards anything Persian, including Islam. So she converted my friend out within one year.
Low self-esteem was part of the conversion. She swung from one extreme to the other.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
I remember a quote: Imaan is a Jar with a broken bottom. You got to keep it filled to have it all the time.
Truely said!
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
May Allah (SWT) save us all from kufr, shirk, and everything bad as well, ameen.
PCG, it is truly very sad. I pray that she returns to Islam, insha'Allah.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
PCG, answers to islam lie not in philosophy but in the Quran.
Tell her to read the Quran, stop bothering with all those philosophical ramblings because to me that doesnt make sense. Philosophy is human, religion is devine law. As humans we can only go so far as to argue in a limited manner.
Religion is not always about something that necessarily makes sense to us. Our perceptions change with time and space and environment all the time, but religion is all encompasing. So yeah maybe polygamy doesnt make sense without polyandri, or the 2 women to one man testimony doesnt make sense, but who are we to argue in the face of devine law ?
There's enough evidence for those who are willing to see. Those who turn their backs from it really need to stop and think for a moment....
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
so again I write about a very close case I had in my personal experience…
PCG you’re true when you said there is subconscious thinking, she is young and have many problems with her parents so she has low self esteem and find even more lowering to her ego, to have to wear hijab and so on…
she is in way blinded by all her anger against the muslim traditions of her parents that she confuses it with Islam faith that lies in the heart and Quran reading. As I said previously arguing with her won’t help…she needs to grow up and feel confident in herself to embrace Islam once again :insha: .
Show her how strong and intelligent you are, as a woman within Islam, make her meet other sisters who are educated, happy in their life and feeling equal to men within Islam. Stress positive points of Islam regarding woman, such as
educating oneself is recomanded by Islam, both women and men are equal regarding knowledge obligation
long clothes+hijab prevents girls from rude man stares in the streets
no sex outside marriage is the best prevention against sexually transmitted disease and unwanted pregnancies
polygamy is better than man cheating on the wife, or going to prostitute or divorcing a quite old helpless woman to marry a younger one…
Also you can tell her there are a lot of muslim living their faith in different ways, sunni, shias, sufis, wahabbis…I am not arguing for sects, but she has to be aware their is not one way of interpreting things but many and if some of them are making her unconfortable she can learn from the others…
I hope this will help you
ps. have you talked to her about GP religion forum, so that she can look muslim people diversity and happiness?
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Sounds like she is questioning authority, Islam, parents, society etc. Developing independent thinking and ethical reasoning is part of growing up. She is having a hard time, possibly because she was not encouraged to ask theses questions when growing up or her parents simply didnt know the answers. This is common among immigrant parents who dont know the answers to these hard questions, coming from Islamic societies. She followed Islam out of love and respect for her parents and her community. Now she wants to figure it out for herself. Sounds like a noble idea.
As far as polygamy is concerned, like I said, it is my understanding that it is the only way to increase rates of birth. By the way, Mohammad wasnt the first person to practice it. In the Bible Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon among others practiced it too. Polyandry doesnt help because one woman married to four men will still need nine months of gestation and another year or two to wean the baby and recover her health before she has another one. One man, however, hypothetically, can make four children in nine months from four women. In the case of severe plague accompanied with famines, droughts and wars, polygamy can become the only way to save the existence of our tribes, population and specie. In the days of Mohammad we had all these catastrophic factors in play. Hope this helps.
regards,
bob
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
I think if she went on gupshup, she’d be appalled at some of the attitudes here and quite possibly drive her away further.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Beauty of this thread is all these people who worried about some one converting to other religion; Power of interrogation always leads you to truth, and satisfaction of knowing it cost you dearly, end results have side effects on your life.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Which?
I know that “different people, different effect”, but that is not driving me away…
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
is there any reason u can't leave her to herself and her new 'religion' or a lack thereof and still be her friend.. shouldn't be too hard.. why do we have to force everyone to think and believe like we do?
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
^ because god says that in a book which confirms god will say it in a book per the book it is said in. Logical enough for you?
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Maniac - just reading the Quran doens’t help. There are lots of people who read it and study it and they are still miserable with themselves. Also see my responses to the others to make this statement more clear.
Parrissenoor - I think that has been one thing she’s been lacking - good muslim role models. She went to an Islamic school that I refused to go to- they were very dogmatic in their approach. I went to an Islamic school where we discussed Islam in a more open way, and people were very free to question, and no one got offended if you did question. Also, she spent most of her time with other muslims of the local Memon clan that are very snobbish towards her. These girls, back then, used to look down on anyone who didn’t want to get married and settle down right away. (Now, of course, many are working jobs and good for them - they finally see the worth of money once they’ve earned it on their own to support the families they’re now making). She actually had a great deal of fun with my main group of muslim friends who are much more open-minded. She lives in a different part of the State though, so she’s limited to what she experiences there now.
bob-chasm: Its true - her parents are also dogmatic. Why do people get so offended when you try to make sense of the religion of your family? Her argument for polygamy is that while this biological need was there for it centuries ago, in this day and age with the population growing, its not needed. Of course, she doesn’t want to accept that polygamy is not something that is PROMOTED in Islam, but is rather just tolerated with monogamy emphasized. But those who stubbornly don’t want to believe will find any excuse to not believe. Its not necessarily Islam that she’s rejecting - she lives by many of its principles. But its that she really wants to rebel, and that’s become such an obsession for her, that I just don’t know how to help her become happy.
PakistaniAbroad: Quite the contrary. She brings up Islam most of the time whenever we talk and get together. It somehow ALWAYS comes up. And I ALWAYS try to avoid it, because then we just talk and talk and talk, and its not like we solve the ummah’s problems. Bottom line is she is very unhappy. Her unhappiness stems from her family problems. Her family problems are intertwined with her rejection of Islam. So, if I’m going to be there for her as a friend, the topic of Islam will invariably come up.
To give you a picture, the conversation always goes like this:
Me: Hey! How ya doin’?
Her: Hey. I’m so tired of my father…my brother is such a dopehead…why can’t they see?..you know, I was sitting with my mom and she just was getting so upset, I was trying to make her understand why polygamy is wrong.
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
Good “to the point” advice (the bold part).
IMO. Briefly, she need emotional support and stability. Religion is a non-issue at this time.
The most important thing you can and should do that she does not make her life miserable by going for drugs or sex or both…Try not to discuss religion with her and try (if you can ) to make her focus on studies and right priorities in life.
For religion, its is upto Allah, if he will guide her, she will eventually come to the right path, but right now discussing it will be more harmful as she is emotionally not stable. We should also pray for her well being. May Allah make things easier for her. ameen.
now for general discussion…
This^^ is probably the biggest myth of Islam, widey beleived to be true…
Initially endorsed by some so called scholars mostly for political purposes and persecution of political oponents…Later blindly believed by common muslims with out even consuting Quran.
In fact ..
Islam does not allow killing of apostates(people who leave the religion Islam and live peacefully). Quran Actually forbids this kind of killing( or any worldy punishment for these people ) .
Those who want to discuss it further, please bring with you all the verses from Quran which address this issue apostacy(people who reject/convert out of Islam).
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
well actually God never said anything like that in the Book which confirms God didn’t say it per the Book He didn’t say it in…
Re: Dealing with a Friend that Left Islam
That is pretty much my view too. I believe that the prophet p demonstrates that it is possible for men to maintain a monogamous marriage with the wife of one’s youth.
I am not convinced there will never be justification for polygamy again. For example, I could undestand if women agreed to polygamy in the Eastern European nations, where muslim men have been subjected to genocide. Polygamy in such a case would help prevent the need for muslim women to convert and marry christian men who may have been responsible for killing their fathers, brothers, sons and husbands. It would also help restore their population.
You are right. I think time heals a lot. Woe tifil he kiya giray ga jo ghotono kay bal chaley? or something like that. She might be in fight or flight mode for now, triggered by fear and uncertainty. Once she can take care of herself, the anger may subside. Then, again she may be destined to be an angry person.
regards,
bob