Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

No! They were sent by their incompetent chief who is responsible for their deaths. Anyway, let us not derail the topic here. I think best thing to do is to put all military dictators on trial starting from Ayoub Khan. Their ranking in military hierarchy should be reduced to lowest level possible & they should be denied any retirement benefits or pension. Those who are still alive should be convicted & sent to jail like criminals that they're.

AGree to that. our political system is like PTV channels, and they play KHABARNAMA and RAAG RANG 24/7. when we get bored of PTV1 we switch to PTV2, some times PTV “WORLD” takes over for a change. I dun mind the switch between PTV1 & PTV2 as long as they play something for audience’s welfare & entertainment, but irony is that it’s not gonna happen any sooner.

BTW PTV1 & PTV2 is playing RAAG RANG these days and PTV “WORLD” is going international. :hehe:

Yes, let have a go at dictators and all accomplices of dictators (past and present). We can start from the earliest and go forward.

So, Ayub Khan and his accomplices were:
Bhutto ... and yea, think of more.

Yahya Khan and his accomplices were:
Bhutto ... and yea, think for more.

First civilian dictator (chief martial law administrator):
Bhutto ... and yea, think for more.

Zia and his accomplices were:
Nawaz ... and yea, think for more.

Musharrarf and his accomplices were:
Iftikhar Chaudhary, BeNazir, Imran Khan ... and yea, think for more.

[Every crook who distributed sweets when dictator came to power and every thug who gave support or gave strength to dictator, or got benefit for dictator at any time should get hanged].

Re: Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

^ With that logic, Altaf Hussain would also need to be killed, he and his party was also a creation of Zia-ul-Haq.

True.

While we are at it why not declare all those who have Billions overseas to go put their big mouth where there Money is..........go home where their Loot is................Go where their Wealth is....and not bother the Poor Farmers and Workers of Pakistan.....by looting Pakistan and hiding the Loot.....they should be where their Loot resides.....:biggthumb

Re: Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

We should make a separate thread for plunderers and other criminal politicians, lets dedicate this one to those military dictators that commit treason as defined by the constitution and stay in power forever.

I think he should brought back to Pakistan and face trials for all the murders/crimes he has comitted in front of real/independent judiciary after restoration and must be given full chance to defend himself...and if found guilty should be punished according to law....

:)......OK good point....let us start with first Dictator........do you know why He took over and booted Sikander Mirza out?...............


Sikander Mirza and the Khan of Kalat had sold Kalat to the Shah of Iran for Gold.......this gold was intercepted by Pakistan Navy......


Treason of Sikander Mirza brought about the first Coup.........


Every Muslim has the Duty to act if it is within his Power.........


The Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces is entitled to take action against corruption and punish treason.


If Ayub Khan had waited for Iran to walk into Kalat there would have been a lot of Bloodshed..........:(

Those are the facts............so who are you going to hang Sikander Mirza or Ayub Khan.....:(

Re: Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

^ Can you back this story with some proof? Iskandar Mirza himself was a very strict and rigid person.

Another excellent article by Babar Sattar explainig why Musharraf must not be allowed to run away without a trial…worth reading specially for all those guys who support the illegal President with their twisted logics…and immoral arguments..

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=115722

Politics of modalities

Legal eye

Saturday, May 31, 2008
Babar Sattar

The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad. He is a Rhodes scholar and has an LL.M from Harvard Law School

We can choose to be conservative or liberal, leftists or right-leaning, professionals or laymen, civilians or soldiers, but we must be constitutionalists. The theory of trickledown effect might have remained unsubstantiated in the realm of economics, but violation of the Constitution by the rulers has certainly depraved the rule of law in Pakistan at all levels.** And the nightmare of constitutional deviations will not end until one who has wronged the Constitution is brought to justice. This is no novel argument, but one over which all the criminal justice systems of the world are founded.** When someone murders another human being, we don’t suspend accountability till we have reformed the system and the society that breeds violence. We hold an individual responsible for his personal wrongs and simultaneously try to plug the loopholes in the system. Strange logic, then, that when the fundamental law of our land gets repeatedly mutilated the ruling political elite huddles together to find ways to offer the perpetrator an honourable exit.

Is there anything honourable about the manner in which General Musharraf subverted the Constitution, molested the democratic institutions of the state, poked a gaping hole in our justice system, and tried to snuff out the hope and spirit of this nation? He might be a good son and a loving father, a loyal friend and someone who meant well for the country in his own warped way. But none of that is relevant. What is relevant is that the general annexed state authority unconstitutionally, abused the office of army chief and president, exacerbated the civil-military imbalance in the country (which has been the bane of our democracy), caused immense harm to our political institutions, political processes and political culture and his legacy is a state where rule of men trump the rule of law. In a nutshell, the general broke the law and he should be held accountable, just like any other citizen of the state. And such demand for accountability should not be seen as a desire born out of anger to settle scores.

**We all agree that subverting the Constitution is a felony under Article 6. And in any civilised country where all men are equal under law, a felon must be brought to justice. By offering Gen Ayub and Yahya safe passages, this country made a mistake that has come to haunt us twice since. And just because we settled for compromises in the past when we should have insisted on upholding our collective rights and sought justice as mandated by the Constitution doesn’t mean we must be held hostage by ignoble precedents. **The miracle of the Musharraf regime – evidenced by the vigorous lawyers’ and civil society movement – is that the recklessness of an illegitimate ruler has instilled a renewed spirit in this nation to stand up and fight for its soul and its survival. The rule of law movement is not seeking blood – only restitution in lieu of the wrongs done and accountability of the wrongdoers as a deterrent for future usurpers.

We have emerged as a society that largely coheres over the idea of upholding the Constitution and rule of law, and strengthening an independent judiciary that can protect and defend the Constitution. The problem is that our elected PPP government is refusing to give effect to such an unmistakable societal consensus. This refusal seems to be rooted in some false assumptions made by the PPP leadership.

First, it has been argued that the general cannot be removed or the judges restored (which is considered by many as synonymous with his immediate removal without impeachment) because the Americans still back him. Unfortunately in Pakistan we have a tendency to treat America as a monolith. The US, like any other country, comprises political forces and interest groups that have conforming as well as divergent interests. In the aftermath of 9/11 there did emerge in the US a conforming consensus over the war on terror and its relationship with Pakistan has been mediated by its interests and concerns vis-à-vis this war. The Bush Administration found a willing partner in the general and hence their close relationship. But such relationships and their longevity is informed by state interests and not personal loyalties.

Thus citing America’s continued support for the general as a reason to keep him in office is either a deliberate attempt to forestall his removal or based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the US policymaking process. The US is one country that has perfected the Machiavellian approach to diplomacy.** They liked a conservative Zia in the 1980’s and a liberal Musharraf post-9/11, and could grow equally fond of Zardari or Sharif, so long as the governments headed by these gentlemen do not threaten US interests.** Democracy in Pakistan might seem inconvenient in the midst of this war, but the US policymaking machine will get used to it. And if the US democracy deserves credit for one thing, it is the inherent ability to systematically change policy every four years with the swearing in of a new administration.

This is why the argument that “America will not allow Musharraf to be removed before presidential elections” sounds ludicrous. After all, whose interests in the US will be affected if Musharraf is shown the door when he is no longer in charge of Pakistan’s policy on the war on terror? Even otherwise, the Bush administration is now in its lame-duck phase and the fortunes of John McCain, the Republican candidate, are in any event not tied to Musharraf’s future.

This is not to suggest that US Administration’s desire on the issue of Musharraf’s future should be relevant for our purposes. But to the extent that the PPP leadership finds itself beholden to the US, it needs to understand that the dynamics of America’s politics (especially in an election year) are such that no one will really bemoan Musharraf’s exit. And as a general matter, so long as the PPP continues to solicit American advice on all issues, it will keep getting a lengthy wish-list. Once it starts to behave like the government of a sovereign state, the US will also prioritise its interests and stop breathing down Pakistan’s neck on peripheral matters.

The second flawed assumption of the PPP’s leadership is that Musharraf has the support of the army and the establishment and any attempt to remove him could lead to another martial law. If there was ever a time in the country’s history when an army chief gave unambiguous signals that the army would stick to its legally mandated role and not intervene in politics, it is now. Whether this is due to the army’s need to disassociate itself from the general and recoup, to protect and preserve its institutional and corporate interests, or a reflection of the incumbent chief’s definition of professionalism, is irrelevant for this debate. The bottom line is that the army has renounced political adventurism for the moment, and raising the bogey of an imaginary martial law is merely an excuse of the ruling politicos to continue to play ball with Musharraf. And with the army aside, what is the establishment but Musharraf and his cronies in various state institutions and agencies?

The demoralised PPP loyalists and supporters got a morale boost last week when Asif Zardari called Musharraf a “relic of the past” and heated up rhetoric against the Presidency. Yet the PPP leadership remains as ambivalent about the future of the Presidency as it is about the restoration of the judges: all words and no action.** The argument that while the PPP and PML-N disagree over modalities, there is no difference between the allies in principle sounds naïve. First, if it were true that the PPP didn’t wish to lock horns with the general by initiating impeachment, for he might go postal and use the “nuclear option,” the best safeguard against the abuse of Article 58 (2)(b) would have been immediate restoration of the Nov 3 judiciary. And, second, even if “fixing the system” to serve posterity and readjusting the balance of power between the prime minister and the president is the PPP’s paramount concern, the general remains the biggest obstacle in the way. **

The PPP has opted for the constitutional package route for reform, even though it is obvious that without getting the general’s cohorts in the Senate on board there is no possibility of amending the Constitution. On the contrary, the PPP and its allies have the requisite two-thirds majority in a joint parliamentary session to impeach the president. And with Musharraf gone, there would be no hindrance in the way of revamping the Constitution to rid it of the various distortions inked in by dictators over the decades. Such approach would also allow the parliament to debate the constitutional package at length without the urgency to produce immediate results, such as restoring judges or creating a neutered presidency.

It is either terrible advice or a well-conceived plan to sabotage the coalition government’s stated objectives of restoring the judges and bidding farewell to the Musharraf era that could explain the PPP’s choice of impossible modalities to pursue worthy goals.

Email: [email protected]

corruption ko rootay hoo…
corrupt tau tum bhee hoo

:aq:

Re: Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

Monday, June 02, 2008
Dr Faqir Hussain

A major challenge facing the nation is the prevalence of the culture of impunity with regard to a most heinous crime i.e. high treason. The offence is created by the country’s supreme law i.e. the Constitution (Art 6) and is punishable with death or imprisonment for life under the High Treason (Punishment) Act 1973. Neither the perpetrator of the crime nor his aids/collaborators were ever prosecuted. The founding fathers of the 1973 Constitution (some of whom were the biological fathers or fathers-in-law of the present-day politicians) put in this fundamental document, very stringent provisions to check and deter any future military onslaught into the body politic.

Article 5 mandated “loyalty to the state” and “obedience to the Constitution and the law” as the inviolable obligation of every citizen. Article 6 criminalized any act or attempt or conspiracy to abrogate or subvert the Constitution by use of force or show of force or any other unconstitutional means. Practically, the offence has been committed thrice but the successive governments simply ignored it, preferring expediency to valour. Consequently, in a public discourse today, the very mention of or emphasis on the word constitution or law invokes sarcastic looks/remarks: why prosecute a taxi driver for over-speeding or a pickpocket for stealing a few bucks, if the molester of the country’s fundamental law enjoys impunity, they retort. Impunity enjoyed by military junta for committing high treason and some politicians/bureaucrats under the infamous NRO carries an extremely negative image of our nation.

It has shattered the principles of equality before law and equal protection of law, guaranteed by the Constitution. Every time the coup d’etat occurred, the action was challenged in the Supreme Court. There were three occasions, 1977 (Begum Nusrat Bhutto v Chief of Army Staff), 1999 (Zafar Ali Shah v Pervez Musharraf) and 3rd November 2007 (Tikka Iqbal Muhammad Khan v General Pervez Musharraf). Every coup resulted practically in the abrogation/subversion of the Constitution, though euphemistically termed “held in abeyance”.

The judges were made to take fresh oath on PCO. Those who declined stood removed. The court always validated the coup by relying on the doctrine of “necessity”. It further granted the coup-maker the power to amend the Constitution. Having taken fresh oath and thereby accepting the de-fact authority, the court could hardly have any other option but to validate the military action and grant the power of amendment, because in the alternative, the members of the bench had no legal ground to stand on, indeed, no raison d’etre to continue as judges. The instinct of self-preservation/self interest operated as a deterrent to think of the alternative, which would have exposed the judges liable to the charge of disobedience to the constitution or even aiding/abetting in its abrogation/subversion.

Two comments are warranted on the Supreme Court verdicts: one, the track record of the Court remains fairly consistent – condoning the action and finding justification for the same on the doctrine of “necessity”. Such pattern of decisions regrettably resulted in stultifying the operation of Article 6 in its application to the perpetrator of the coup d’ etat together with his cohorts, aides and abettors in the crime of high treason. A popular perception thus developed amongst the masses that the court, while deciding between the “law” and “fact”, leans in favour of the later and applies law and legal jargon only to recognize the de-facto authority.

The only exception is the judgment of 1972 in the case of Asma Jilani, wherein General Yahya was dubbed as usurper and his act as unconstitutional. The court was unwilling to save his actions or recognize his power to make/amend the law/constitution, as observed: “No valid law can come into being from the foul breath or smeared pen of a person guilty of treason against the national order”. The court further warranted action against any future Bonaparte or adventurist, thus: “A person who destroys the national legal order in an illegitimate manner cannot be regarded as a valid source of law-making. May be, that on account of his holding the coercive apparatus of the state, the people and the courts are silenced temporarily, but let it be laid down firmly that the order which the usurper imposes will remain illegal and courts will not recognize its rule and act upon them as de-jure. As soon as the first opportunity arises, when the coercive apparatus falls from the hands of the usurper, he should be tried for high treason and suitably punished. This alone will serve as a deterrent to would-be adventurers.”

Very correct and appropriate observation indeed but when and who to apply to? This is the million dollars question! No politician and no parliamentarian have ever contemplated the thought. The Constitution therefore remains undefended and unprotected, notwithstanding the oath of affirmation by scores of holders of constitutional posts, solemnly swearing (in the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful) that they will preserve, protect and defend this document. The second comment is jurisprudential. It pertains to the court’s jurisdiction and (assumed) power to determine the vires of the military action. How and under what which law, can a court recognize or legitimize an act which is taken in sheer disregard of, nay, patent violation of the Constitution? Why Article 6 always gets ignored? How the court could remain alive and functional when the basic law which creates and sustains it, is abrogated/suspended, and the Court adjudges such action as valid? How can a creation pronounce upon the fate/future of its creator? Is the court omnipotent or some super-entity, above the law and constitution? Obviously it is not and the Supreme Court has never made any such claim.

The court is just one institution, like others, executive and parliament, created by the constitution. It is, therefore, the product of constitution and derives its jurisdiction and powers from this document. It has, therefore, to remain within the limits of the constitution. Its functions are merely to interpret, not make or change the law. The Supreme Court is indeed bound by its oath to “preserve, protect and defend” the Constitution. Indeed, it owes it to the Constitution to initiate proceedings against the usurper for the crime of “high treason”, as mandated by Article 6 thereof. The court, however, almost always ignored this obligation. During the lengthy proceedings in the above-referred cases, this point was seldom touched and never applied. This is a failure of a sacred constitutional obligation, which every judge is oath-bound to discharge. The author therefore shares the views expressed by the Supreme Court in Asma Jillian’s case:

“…[T]he judges of Municipal Courts who have taken oath of office to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution will not break the oath and declare that because of the superior will of the usurper they have been relieved from their legal obligations. If the judges find the executive organ of the State unwilling to enforce their decrees and orders, the only course open to them is to vacate their office. Those who are desirous of serving the usurper may take office under the legal Order imposed by him, but this depends upon the discretion and personal decision of the judges and has no legal effect. If they adopt the second course they will be acknowledging that “might” is “right” and become collaborators with the usurper.

The same result is achieved if they foreswear their oath and accept as valid the destruction of the national order and confer recognition on the legislative, administrative and executive acts of the usurper”. In this perspective, the executive authority is duty bound to apply Article 6 of the Constitution by filing a complaint under the High Treason (Punishment) Act 1973, failing which the superior courts can issue directions for the purpose. The complaint can be against the living and also (symbolic) trial of certain dead perpetrators of the crime of high treason. The posthumous trial and public execution of the remains of Oliver Cromwell in Great Brighten furnishes a precedent. Given political will, there cannot be a more opportune time than now.

The writer is secretary of the Law and Justice Commission of Pakistan. Email: [email protected]

I think the creator of this topic should be tried under High Treason Act.

At the same time he did more than the 2 combined.

I think they should al be punished - why are BB, NS, Zardari, Altaf Bhai seen as better ? They are all just as bad

A lot of people are now anti army/ anti dictatorship - i wonder how many of you will be crying back for the army when zardari and sharif brothers start a double looting camapign - wait and see.

Dont worry, we arent blind dictator or MQM supporters, we dont just let leaders run amock just because they give our ethnic-fascist parties a free run. Besides, it is dictators who have committed treason based on the constitution, which is what we are discussing, not looting sprees, and they should be held for that. For everything else, please create a new topic.

oh now I see why you were defending musharraf so vehemently on that gwadar thread.

Thank God the supporters of traitor dictator are not in majority & long maybe live our freedom and democracy...

Re: Dead or alive all dictators should be tried under High Treason Act

^^ No. Those who are in the majority have no idea what the hell is going on right now, even though they created the mess themselves, whilst searching for that 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

Jaahil qaum.

Welcome to the 90's !

I don't think I even mentioned Musharraf, even once, on that thread.

I guess someone from Mississauga has better picture of whats going than those who live in the country. In any case, majority rules & those who don't like that should feel free to leave anytime.... :)