culture really affects a person’s thinking and behavior…and its almost impossible to analyse another person’s actions sometimes…
this one time like two yrs ago a girl about my age was visiting pakistan for the first time from england…she was pakistani but not raised in a very ‘conservative and cultural’ household in england…she was visiting us in pakistan…
we had some construction workers working in our house…her and i were entering the house…we crossed the room where the construction workers were working…we were both wearing chaadars…i, just instinctively like second nature pulled my chaadar kinda over my face to shield it from view and walked quietly from the side without raising my head to even look at them…purely cultural behavior…but she stopped, raised her chaadar, looked at them in the face and said as-salam-o-alaikum and smiled at them…
they were somewhat weirded out i guess and i think most of them didnt reply and one of them did and said walekumsalam..,afterwards when we went in, i was like yaar r u crazy u r not supposed to smile and say salam to them and she is like huh aren’t they muslim and aren’t we supposed to say salam to all muslims…i offerred an explanation but she was not convinced…she sincerely believed that there was nothing wrong with what she did…
and i do understand where she is coming from…
when we were sitting in the public bus in pakistan for example, i couldnt explain to her for example why she must not strike a conversation with the bus conductor… she spoke some broken urdu..she sincerely didn’t get why it was not the right thing to do as where she grew up thats pretty normal…and i realised i didn’t really have a proper logic that would explain to her why… my reasons were not convnicing enough for her and were prolly not consistent with her own value system…her thoughts and background were different…there is no universal value system after all..
these incidents really stuck with me…experienced this thruout college in the us too…and i often think about it…like how the culture and behavior and standards of two individuals can be so different…i’m not saying better or worse…
it sometimes seems like there is no common ground at all between any two individuals for complete communication, as after all everyone has different thoughts…is there any ground for ppl to communicate…? something that one person means in one way, the other person takes differently…coz of differences in thinking, culture whatever u want to call it…
there is so much space for miscommunication and people misunderstanding your words/actions…
Why is not acceptable to talk to the bus driver or say salam to construction workers? I would think that was pretty kind of her. Is it because bus drivers and construction workers are "lower class" or because they are men? Did the bus driver converse with her or also look at her strangely?
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*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
Why is not acceptable to talk to the bus driver or say salam to construction workers? I would think that was pretty kind of her. Is it because bus drivers and construction workers are "lower class" or because they are men? Did the bus driver converse with her or also look at her strangely?
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heheh....nahin Mehnaz, it's actually not coz they were construction workers it's coz they were men. Women in Pakistan try to avoid drawing attention to men as much as possible(that's how it used to be when I lived in Pak, dunno about now). By the way, I thought it has changed from past few years....Interaction between two sexes has become pretty much common in Pakistan, hasn't it Irem??
Nice thoughts expressed there, Irem. What an interesting thread.
hmmm. i remember i went to pick up one of my cousins from school, in Islamabad, last year (i was visiting them). Khair so it was me and the family driver, whom we all affectionately called "Mr. Haji Sahib". He used to be an engineer on this famous Pakistani ship, he had toured the world, literally, visited almost every single country. He used to tell me some of his travels. To me, he was this interesting person, well-travelled, open-minded, kind of reminded me of my Nana in a way (who passed away before i was born). Anyways tau, when my cousin walked out of the school gates at dismissal time, without even thinking as we approached the car, i opened the front passenger door - i usually sat in the front. And my cousin was absolutely horrified, to the point that she wouldn't talk with me for hours afterwards. All because i sat next to the driver. Later my Khala explained to me that, it's not done - and i couldn't understand why. Anyways i'm not saying i was right and everyone else was wrong, i'm sure i was wrong to do that, but it's something that i failed to understand and appreciate. i still can't get over how she wouldn't talk to me - all because i broke the invisible class line and sat in the front, with the driver. It's not like i was sitting on his lap, i was in the front passenger seat.. But oh well. i'm not saying i'm always right and they were wrong. Actually to this day i don't understand that whole issue.
There are other instances of cultural differences i can think of.. those are here in Canada. Anyways interesting thread Irem.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
**i still can't get over how she wouldn't talk to me - all because i broke the invisible class line and sat in the front, with the driver.* It's not like i was sitting on his lap, i was in the front passenger seat.. But oh well. i'm not saying i'm always right and they were wrong. Actually to this day i don't understand that whole issue.
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I think men do sit on the front passengers seat, don't they?(Irem, can you confirm it? thanks) If the reason is because they're from lower class then why would men sit next to the driver? I think your cousin got upset because it is/was not acceptable in Pakistani culture for women to interact with men like that. When I lived there, whenever we used to have male guests(other than close relatives and friends) over at our house, my mom would send me and my sister to the other room so that they couldn't see us. It was very different back then, I mean, not many men and women used to interact with each other. Hmm, I haven't been to Pakistan for a long time so I don't how it is now.
This reminds me of a little story- when we were at school, a couple of my friends were on motorbike and saw this car go by. A pretty girl in the back of the car smiled at them- that was enough to get these red-blooded guys going!! They started to chase this car. The car entered the cantonment area then stopped blocking the road. They stopped too. Out came the girls dad who was an army officer and he called a few soldiers from the checkpost over. They grabbed these two guys and locked them up. That whole episode was very embarrassing for the two guys especially as their parents got involved and so did the school.
The moral of the story is that in a depraved country like Pakistan, even an innocent gesture like a smile can get any young red blooded guys heart pumping!! so it is better to avoid chatting men whilst living in such conditions. Mind you this was during Gen Zia's reign and I believe now things are a lot different.
I am a guy (for those who have doubts) and even I've had similar experiences. I am not supposed to say salaam or be courteous to women. Once, I was entering a bank and noticed a WOMAN approaching from the other end. I, being a gentleman I am, held the door for her. She instead of passing thru (saying thank you or not wasn't important to me) stayed right behind me and waited for me to keep going. I gave her a couple of seconds and then went inside. She followed me in. I must say that this was an isolated incidence. There were other women who gladly passed thru without saying thank you.
Also, being nice to servants is looked down upon by your hosts. This really old baba was sercing tea at a house I was visiting. As he handed me my cup of tea, I said, "Shukria Uncle". For a second people around made me feel as if something inappropriate had happened.
What pisses me off is that this kind of culture is promoted by people who claim to be Muslims. Didn't Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Giving smile is a form of charity". He (PBUH) also entered Makkah after victory guiding a camel being ridden by his servant.
May Allah give us all the Hidaaya to follow in the footsteps of our beloved Prophet (PBUH).
once at tariq road we went to this small restaurant and the waiter brought our drinks n i said thank u with a lil smile. my cousins scolded me n said i shudnt have said that.. like i have commited a sin or something. it felt to weird n awkward.
y do we assume that every guy is an animal and wud come attack us if we say salam or thank u?
This is precisely why our culture needs to be wiped out and replaced with Islam. We've ended up with a culture where even saying the mandatory "Assalaam Alaikum" to your brother Muslim is deemed to be inappropriate.
wow.... the experiences in this thread are amazing :)
i must say even though ive been back to pakistan a lot of times, i have not come across such situations..
when i go back all my cousins, aunts and uncles talk to the drivers and the so called 'nokranis' in a respectful manner.. they are much as part of the family as the rest... infact they all go on the same outings we go on.. like restaurants.. shopping.. and accompanied us to Murree as well..
but yeah.. one difference.. the younger girls do sit in the front with the driver, but the elder ones dont.. well they do when parents arent looking... i mean the drivers have taught all the girls how to drive.. even i got a lesson in manual when i went back :D
hmmm seems like im missing out on all the fun! i havent been able to cause any stir there... but this time i go... i'll try to look into it
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*Originally posted by suroor_ca02: *
once at tariq road we went to this small restaurant and the waiter brought our drinks n i said thank u with a lil smile. my cousins scolded me n said i shudnt have said that.. like i have commited a sin or something. it felt to weird n awkward.
y do we assume that every guy is an animal and wud come attack us if we say salam or thank u?
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hehe u know what suroor... my cousins (the females ones) and I always end up becoming friends with the waiters.. cus my cousin seems to think we can get discounts and extra food hehe..
once at Pizza Hut in lahore.. (ok i know... why was i there?!).. well the waiter was real sweet.. and he asked one of us to fill out those complimentary form thingys.. so my cousins asked me to do it... and we started talknig to him... and found out he was from our home town.. he was soo embarrassed bechara... and my mum being the crazy lady she is... started getting ideas of possible rishta!!
You are absolutely right, men do sit in the front passenger seat.
Maybe it’s both a class and gender issue, but more gender than class? i still don’t understand what happened that day, as i stated. What was so wrong with sitting in the front - i mean, if he was a 20-something driver, in his mid 20s or something, tau phir of course i wouldn’t have sat in the front. He is a very elderly man though, old enough to be my grandfather - so i didn’t see the ‘harm’ in it. Infact it seemed to me, he would be offended if i didn’t - as though, who do i think i am that i am insulting him (an elder) by not sitting in the front.
Some interesting experiences here have compelled me to write mine.
It was actually Eid, and i was asked to open the door for the waiting doodhwala. I, being all hyped up by the Eid, said Eid mubarak to the doodhwala and gave him a brotherly hug.
Thankfully it was seen as something positive by my nannie and rest of the elders. However, cousins still make fun of me as a doodhwala-hugger.
Re: cultural differences leading to misunderstandings
Irem, I agree that cultural differences and ones upbringing does shape your thinking…
It was very nice of your friend for being cordial with other human being(male or female)… :k:
you may interpret my indifference as an expression of interest because there is a significant difference between the degrees to which you and I are cultured.
oh well.
btw koreans dont shake hands. i've seen a number of people learn that the hard way.
and she is like huh aren’t they muslim and aren’t we supposed to say salam to all muslims…i offerred an explanation but she was not convinced…she sincerely believed that there was nothing wrong with what she did…
i still don’t understand what happened that day, as i stated. What was so wrong with sitting in the front - i mean, if he was a 20-something driver, in his mid 20s or something, tau phir of course i wouldn’t have sat in the front. He is a very elderly man though, old enough to be my grandfather - so i didn’t see the ‘harm’ in it. Infact it seemed to me, he would be offended if i didn’t - as though, who do i think i am that i am insulting him (an elder) by not sitting in the front.
