This is a simple question. One can criticize the program of the PPP, PML-N, MQM, Musharraf’s record, etc.. My question is whether an exemption exists regarding the program of Jamaat Islami and the Taliban, which revolves around shariah.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
Well it depends if you are criticising their unjust actions of those talibans (without criticising the religion) or the religion. The later is not acceptable.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
My criticism is of shariah of Islamists/Islamic extremists. The problem is that whenever you do that, in order to censor such criticism Islamists claim you are being "anti-Islam"--even if you specifically say your interest is in the Islamist interpretation of shariah. It isn't me who says shariah says the inheritance of women should be half that of men; it is the Islamists wherever they come to power (Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, Swat, etc.). Yet if you point something like that out you are deemed to be anti-Muslim. The net effect of such thinking is a de facto ban on all criticism of Islamists/Islamic extremists. How can one win the war of ideas if the moderates/liberals are silenced?
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
well it really depends how you pass your ideas. Rest, maybe read indetail the law of inherritance and then discuss it instead of criticizing it, that is what educated moderate/liberal ppl should be doing. :)
This is a simple question. One can criticize the program of the PPP, PML-N, MQM, Musharraf's record, etc.. My question is whether an exemption exists regarding the program of Jamaat Islami and the Taliban, which revolves around shariah.
Reason nice question. There is only one Shariah that we know of. The one that Prophet Mohammed brought for us as the message of Allah. Man made shariat is all a religious hype.
Well it depends if you are criticising their unjust actions of those talibans (without criticising the religion) or the religion. The later is not acceptable.
i 2nd ur views as i consider it a moderate and balanced approch.
delimma is that few ppl start criticizing the principles of shariah without having the proper knowledge of the rationale and background of that principle. beside their knowledge is very limited about shariah on overall basis.
few others are indulge in copy pasting from the anti islamic websites instead of sharing their own thoughts.
i think if someone have ne query in mind he shud consult relegious scholars instead of start criticisng the principle here at this forum.
may show all of us right path.
This is a simple question. One can criticize the program of the PPP, PML-N, MQM, Musharraf's record, etc.. My question is whether an exemption exists regarding the program of Jamaat Islami and the Taliban, which revolves around shariah.
you really do not know anything about Islam Mr. Reason.
Shariah is PART of Islam.
And what you are talking about is the interpretation by Jamaat e Islami AND the Taliban.
You can have reservations against the interpretation but if you think u can criticize the Shariah
well i don't know that would mean you are criticizing Islam. I don't know what is the policy of this forum regarding criticizing Islam.
But what you are doing is not criticizing mr. Reason with all fairness and with respect i cannot deny you are systematicly BASHING Islam.
I mean just check your threads and your posts you will understand what i mean.
And to be so obsessed with one religion, your parents religion and your ex religion and totally ignoring other religions is not so "REASONABLE".
If you would compare different religions with Islam i would and most people would not have much of an problem :)
But you only finger point at Islam and in my eyes (i do wear specs) you are comparing (in your own words) Islam with Fascism and again i don't know what is the policy of this forum regarding this. To me i fell from my chair when i did read your comments. no joke.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
I do not always agree with whatever is allowed here but i accept it and respect it because thats the policy of GS forum and i have to abide by the rules.
I really think this forum gives more freedom to express then most Indians (really i love India but the Indian policies i disagree with so sorry i mention India again) and some ex Pakistani's active on this forum have enjoyed so much freedom they should really be thankful to the moderators.
I mean gosh mein to jawaab de de keh apna wazan kam kar chuka hoon. I think i lost 2 kg in last few weeks lolz.
i think Reason's input here has a positive angle as well. in usa around 0.6% muslims and even most of muslim have not much awareness about islam. most of them thinks that islam is all what the media present (jihad , suicide bombing , rights of women and thats all) and unfortunaltey there is not much genuine representation of muslims in media.
i have respect for his views though i have severe reservations on many of his ideas/views. i expect that his interaction wid the members here will mutually benficial for all of us in order to get genuine understanding of islam.
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There is only one Shariah that we know of. The one that Prophet Mohammed brought for us as the message of Allah. Man made shariat is all a religious hype.
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i think if someone have ne query in mind he shud consult relegious scholars instead of start criticisng the principle here at this forum.
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Shariah is PART of Islam.
And what you are talking about is the interpretation by Jamaat e Islami AND the Taliban.
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So we are all in agreement it seems. When Jamaat Islami or Iranian mullahs talk about shariah what is at issue is their interpretation of it for they are imposing that version.
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if you think u can criticize the Shariah
well i don't know that would mean you are criticizing Islam. I
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This is a perfect example about what I am talking about and the reason for this thread. This person runs to the moderators all the time to censor criticism of shariah even though I say exactly what he says: the issue is the Islamist version of shariah, not the shariah of 625. Compare this to Communism. When Communist parties around the world sought to impose Communism on countries what was the issue? Their actual policy program and the record of Communism wherever it has been implemented or the theory of Marx himself? One would be silly to dwell on the actual Marxist theory when Communists openly distorted it.
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But you only finger point at Islam and in my eyes (i do wear specs) you are comparing (in your own words) Islam with Fascism
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There you go again. His is systematically lying to censor criticism of his precious Islamist ideology. I have always said Islam*ism* is a form of fascism. Here is the definition of fascism:
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a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion
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Replace the word "nationalist" with "religious" and te definition fits groups like Jamaat Islami, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. to a tee.
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And to be so obsessed with one religion, your parents religion and your ex religion and totally ignoring other religions is not so "REASONABLE".
If you would compare different religions with Islam i would and most people would not have much of an problem
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There you go again. As I have said numerous times, I care little about Islamic doctrines just as I care little about the doctrines of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. My interest is in the ideology that has attempted to attack my countrymen 9 times this season and has devastating the country of my parents. I am not a theologian; I am a student of history and politics. If I was born 30 years ago my interest would be in Communism, not Islamism.
One final note on shariah, it was developed over time in the first few centuries of Islam. So when someone criticizes classical shariah it is almost always not a criticism of the shariah of Medina. For example, the use of stoning is a longtime shariah penalty even though the Islamic prophet never prescribed it.
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some ex Pakistani's active on this forum have enjoyed so much freedom they should really be thankful to the moderators.
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I'm banned from the Pakistan affairs forum because I am not convinced the Pakistani government has the backbone to crush terrorism. This isn't my view; this is the view of the world. You have had 7 attacks in the past week in Pakistan and the big offensive the Pakistani military has been talking about since June has yet to materialize.
Thanks, Maverick. Everyone in my family is Muslim and I know plenty of them. However, some of them are Islamists so I also know what Islamists think both from reading about their leaders and hearing from their rank and file supporters (i.e. my uncle was the leader of Jamaat Islami at his university). My opposition is to Islamism/Islamic extremism/Islamic fundamentalist/whatever you call it not Islam itself.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
Criticism denotes you actually know what you are talking about. That is obviously not the case. So no you are not allowed to do so.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
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So we are all in agreement it seems. When Jamaat Islami or Iranian mullahs talk about shariah what is at issue is their interpretation of it for they are imposing that version.
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if JI's or Iranian shariah is what Prophet Mohammed's shariah is then it should not be an issue
Shariat can be discussed by people with knowledge (Aalims). Not by people who do not have enough knowledge and definitely not by hindus disguised as Muslims on this forum, Mr. Reason!
i think Reason's input here has a positive angle as well. in usa around 0.6% muslims and even most of muslim have not much awareness about islam. most of them thinks that islam is all what the media present (jihad , suicide bombing , rights of women and thats all) and unfortunaltey there is not much genuine representation of muslims in media.
i have respect for his views though i have severe reservations on many of his ideas/views. i expect that his interaction wid the members here will mutually benficial for all of us in order to get genuine understanding of islam.
Dear Maverick you have mentioned few things and i will one by one try to anwser you.
- I do not think that Reasons input has been positive. Did you check all his threads and did you read all his posts? Well what positive comes from there? Maverick I do not always agree with you and Areleitter and some others. But they and you contribute more to this forum then just only flooding it with anti Islamic threads and posts on daily bases. And what i have been saying in most of my posts about mr. Reason (with all due respect i have nothing personal against him since i do not know him) that he thinks Islam is a "fascist" religion. He several times denied that and said that he is only targeting Wahabis and Taliban. Well then why does not all the time say Islamists and muslims why not Taleban and Wahabi's even I (yes happyheart) am against their ideology. I even believe their thinking is destructive. So Mr. Reason denied he did not say ISLAM is a fascist religion. :) But thank God for his complain to the moderator its cristal clear to others also that he did not only mean Wahabi's and Taleban. He talked about Shariah. Since mr. Reason has all the knowledge of the world (judging him on this forum because he is very quick posting articles, i am sure he studies/reads alot, and he is ex Muslims) he must have known about Shariah but still he acts like he does not know that Shariah is one and its not different for Taliban and different for Sunnies...ets.... One can interpret it differently but he asks permission to criticise the Shariah so by default Islam.
Don't believe what i tell you just read his posts and threads what positive comes out from there Maverick? I mean did he ever try to bring people, communities, religions together? big NO!!!!!
...not much genuine representation of muslims in media? Well who is to be blamed for that??
Only Muslims? Well you Muslims don't control the media mate. And i work in the media and i know how media works. :) I know all the ins and outs.Again i cannot agree with you on thiis because as i said name one thread that he started which was intended to bring communities, people, countries and religions together? I may have missed it so you can help me out please.
I do not mind criticism i have said it 100 times. Without argument it would be boring to be here on GS but ......well i will not repeat myself again i have mentioned it many times that mr. Reasons intentions are not to contribute or have a creative dialgue, unfortunatly i would say.
And whenever he said something sensible i have commented positve, u can check my comments i have always said very well done and i am happy with your comment.
We should build bridges not destroy it.
Shariat can be discussed by people with knowledge (Aalims). Not by people who do not have enough knowledge and definitely not by hindus disguised as Muslims on this forum, Mr. Reason!
Seems very 'reasonable' answer! :-)
I would add here it can be discussed but not criticized without having basic knowledge and with having intention of 'bashing' the shariah and its followers who may have nothing to do with few ( I repeat few) bad people.
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
Reading posts of two particular guppies I must say they have zero knowledge of religion and intention is just to bash, argue and argue to death. Waste of time responding there.
If a child asks a question for learning, you answer.
If a grown person with no knowledge criticize something for the sake of criticism and bashing, you avoid that person. But if you have power, you stop that person. Simple.
I think the rules should include: **
Well accepted 'shariah laws' should not be criticized. But questions can be asked about their basis, their applicability and wisdom.
**This will be a good step to deter trolls and argument lovers.
Criticism denotes you actually know what you are talking about. That is obviously not the case. So no you are not allowed to do so.
Well there's a lot of things you have absolutely no clue on so perhaps you should practice what you preach?
Marasai_Dee, you are among the most ignorant posters here. Look in a mirror. Moreover, your post is indicative of the problem. When will Pakistanis grow up and learn to think for themselves instead of receiving orders from so-called “ulema” on “proper thinking” on everything?
I’ve always said Islamists. Why do you continue to lie? You fascists have already censored me from the Pakistan Affairs, World Affairs, and Military Affairs forum. Mission accomplished, no?
Wahabbis are not the only Islamists. If you knew what Islamism is you would know that…
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I couldn’t care less what “true shariah” is (Hint: you’ll find “true shariah” next to where you will find “true Marxism”. My concern is with the realities of shariah as applied by Islamists again and again.
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Even if one wanted to criticize Islam, so what? Go to an American or Brazilian message board. You can criticize Christianity. Go to an Indian board. You can criticize Hinduism. And so on. Only Muslims cannot handle criticism. Why? Is Islam such a fragile deck of cards that it would come crumbling down at the slightest bit of criticism? Every other religion can handle it. Why not the self-proclaimed “one true” religion?
The funny part is that on this board at least the defenders of shariah are the ones who lack even a basic knowledge of it.
“A few” bad people. A few control several countries? A few have supporters globally? You ignoramuses don’t even know how shariah came into existence. Hint: the bulk of it came after Muhammad’s death.
This kind of anti-intellectual attitude, which itself is a byproduct of shariah, is why the 50+ Muslim states are where they are. Successful nations allow their peoples to discuss things openly and this leads to them naturally evolving over time. In contrast, Muslim societies have been frozen in time and in some cases are even regressing.
I expected to be banned. I was banned earlier (Jefferson). The larger point is not me but the failure of Pakistan. What you clowns have done is indicative of fundamental problems the failed culture of Pakistan has–and Islam’s influence is a big part of it. You can continue to censor people online and in real life but the price you will pay is for Pakistan to continue to fall further and further behind the world. Well, that is if Pakistan even exists for its state is so unstable it is possible that it will become the new Yugoslavia in a few years. In short, learn from successful countries. Pakistan will never join the ranks of successful countries until its people grow up and are able to handle open discussion and dissent–including regarding religion, which is the #1 anchor holding Pakistan down.
This is my last post here, perhaps forever. I will likely be back again in a few months with a new name. Only a moron would believe you can truly “ban” someone from a message forum. The irony is someone named “Iconoclast” started this parade. 
Re: Criticism of shariah: allowed here or not?
Okay "Reason" (or whatever other name you decide to come up with), good luck with that. It is unfortunate that you could not remain an active member, but we do hope that you will return with a productive attitude that is suitable for a portal such as GupShup. We encourage debates, discussion, sharing of ideas so long as mutual respect is reserved for all participants.
Irony of the situation is that you're upset with others having varying views, and have not hesitated to resort to name-calling.
Good bye.