Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

[janab-e-ali]

@burqaposhx

If you are not a Pakistani, then why the heck you are feeding the religious chauvinism on a Pakistani board? ...

We unfortunately have many in our home country who are burning our beautiful country down in the name of distant lands just because people like you spread disinformation and big fat lies that "Islam Khutray main hai".

You are so incredibly, painfully ignorant and narrow-minded...you seem to be utterly incapable of any sort of discourse without labeling anyone and everyone who disagrees with you a "tribaljihadislamist," no matter how ridiculously absurd and baseless the accusation may be. For the record, the one and only time I have ever mentioned Islam or anything of the sort in this discussion was in the post where I made it clear that this should not be considered an "Islamic cause," and that labeling it as such is an enormous mistake:

[quote] Khoji: This is an Islamic issue, and it involves all Islamic world.

**
NO.**

This is an ethnonationalist issue that involves the legitimate demands of the Palestinian people for basic human rights and independence from brutal foreign occupation. Twisting this into a pan-Islamist cause has done them no good, and will only continue to be a liability for them....The last thing the people of Palestine need is a Tehreek-e-Taliban-e-Falasteen blowing up girls' schools and stoning women, and destroying whatever goodwill left in the international community towards them.
[/QUOTE]

@burqaposhx

Why we the Paks have to suffer from foreign Jihadis like you.

1. Again, what a stupid, ridiculously baseless accusation. Again, you are a petulant child, and seem to be completely incapable of anything beyond name-calling.

2. How ironic to hear you say that, considering the fact that your own government and military have spent the past 20 years shoving surplus foreign jihadis from the Afghan war across the border into my Kashmir, in the process virtually destroying our legitimate, secular, nationalist movement for self-determination.

[Ambassador1]

Re: Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

This thread has become so lengthy, impossible for me to go through but I read some comments from khoji who is determined that Palestine issue is a 'muslim' issue. I completely disagree.

Surely, the Palestinian issue was made to appear as a muslim issue whereas originally it was not. It was an issue of the habitants of Palestine regardless of their faiths / religions or which God they believed in. Initially, all the natives of that land fought together hand in hand against israeli agression but the day it was made to appear as solely a muslim issue, it lost its' legitimacy due to a simple fact that muslims have a bad history of not using their brains to fix their problems but deal with them emotionally. So............... it actually have become a muslim-only issue as per the desire of the agressors & lost its' legitimacy.

Only if it this cause was not given a 'muslim-only' issue status, it probably would have seemed more credible. But now since the aggressors have imported from around the world the believers of the same faith as they themselves claim to be belonging to (Jewish believers) & made them believe that it is their 'home', it would be hard to export all of those people back to where they have been brought from. The Jewish people who have been brought in from around the world to live in present day israel are not to be blamed. They are common people who have nothing to do with the israeli politics & aggression. They have been flown in with assurance of 'the promised land'. It is not their fault.

[khoji]

Re: Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

Ambassador1:

[quote]
from khoji who is determined that Palestine issue is a 'muslim' issue. I completely disagree.
[/quote]

Please calm down. I don't consider Palestine issue to be JUST a Muslim issue. It is also a nationalist and a moral issue.
However, to call it ONLY nationalist issue is as wrong as calling it ONLY a religious Muslim issue.

I had to talk about its religious significance because some of our Pakistani friends had started to disavow this issue calling it merely an Arab (nationalist) issue.

[quote]
Only if it this cause was not given a 'muslim-only' issue status, it probably would have seemed more credible.
[/quote]

Credible to whom? The people in eyes of which you are trying to look 'credible' are those who actually imposed Israel in the heart of Palestine in the first place.
It would be naive to think that we can convince Europeans/ Americans about the legitimacy of Palestinian cause by talking about nationalism alone. They don't want to be convinced. They don't want to listen to you. If they did want to listen to logic and reasoning then Israel would not have come into existence in the first place.
Yasser Arafat followed that path of nationalism for a very long time. But in the end he failed (due to Israel). Hamas is a response to that failure. If Palestinians had seen some hope coming out of Arafat's long struggle then they would not have resorted to creating Hamas.

I really don't think it is possible to get Palestine freedom through our power of "convincing", based either on religious or nationalistic grounds. Nor is it possible to snatch victory by waging wars. Because in a nutshell, Israel is America, and while we can fight America, we can not defeat it.

Israel's population does not increase because of religion. It increases because of economics. There are very few people who go to Israel for religious reasons alone. Most people go there for their better future. And so until the time its economy is in place, Israel will remain in its place. If Israel is ever going to go away, it will only be due to bad economy. And that's what we (actually, our leaders, if there care) need to concentrate on.

[quote]
it actually have become a muslim-only issue as per the desire of the agressors & lost its' legitimacy.
[/quote]

I disagree that Israelis want this to be seen in the light of Islam. They have actually tried very hard to keep Islam out of it. Because calling it an Islamic issue brings legitimacy to involvement of ALL Islamic world. They would rather deal with Arab world alone.
Just look at the Zionists here, Alex and burqa. They are advising Pakistanis to not worry about this issue, because it is merely an Arab issue.

So in the end I would say please stop confining this issue in narrow categories. We can discuss this issue from various angles based on the situation at hand.

[Med911]

@AlexB

Apparently, it is a matter of perspective. For me Zionism is a noble cause, one of the justest national-liberation movements in the world. Paraphrasing your own statement, I would be a Zionist supporter even if I weren't a Jew or an Israeli.

Anti-Zionism, on the other hand, is an abomination and a sign of moral bankruptcy.

Taking land from others and turning them into prisoners in their own country, and you call that a noble cause?
You noble cause has seen the death of countless innocent lives, all so the Goldbergs can have a summer getaway in Israel, with a lush garden and all, while their Palestinian neighbors are lucky their house isnt torn down.

I hope your govt see's the folly in holding others hostage. At some point, you may end up shooting yourselves in the head.

I mean, do you honestly think America will finance your "defense" forever? How long can Israel honestly expect to hold back all those it chooses to oppress in the name of its supposed security...

[Med911]

I know it's become rather fashionable to support Israel among a certain subset of seculaist Pakistani elites - But come on...I'm sure there's a way to support secular democracy in Pakistan without rationalizing war crimes.

lol...

Well Said.

[Ambassador1]

Re: Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

khoji, Im not mad.

I agree that the importance of the palestinian cause was diminished & eventually terminated by giving it an arab-muslim-only issue status.

[khoji]

Re: Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

Alex Khazar, what constitutes a race according to science?

[AlexB]

@khoji

Jews are as much of a race as Greek are Spartans.

Spartans were actually a small subset of the Greeks.

@khoji

haha. Just words. Yeah, and monkeys fly too.
Zionism is nothing but racism in the name of religion.

It is only ~3000 years of scientifically verified continuous history of the Jewish people and the Jewish national identity against you. But I’m sure you won’t let facts confuse you. Otherwise you won’t be able to support your argument:)

@khoji

The whole land is holy for Islam, not just some religious sites. Just like the land of Hejaz.

Apparently, some sites are more holy than others, like Jerusalem (al-Quds) or Al-Aqsa Mosque. Otherwise you won’t be hearing frequently about the holy Muslim sites in Palestine (which you do).
Regrading the holyness of the whole land, is it in the Quran? Could you provide the specific verse? What is the problem of this holiness with the Zionism? I’m sure that as long as it does not interfere with the right of self-determination of the Jewish people in their homeland, this Muslim holiness has no implication for the Zionism.

@khoji

We can talk about Pakistan, but I see you are trying to divert the attention from what I said about a state which takes care of all its citizens EQUALLY.
So I repeat again: What is needed is a truly democratic state which does not distinguish between different religions and races.
What objection do you have in principle about it?

I don’t have any objection in principle. Neither does the state of Israel. Quoting the Israeli declaration of independence,
“THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions”
Those provisions are reflected in the Israeli laws.
You can read the full text here,
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel
Fill free to look for anything regarding “Jewish superiority” or “Promised land”.

Regarding the Pakistan issue, it was not really an attempt to divert an attention. It is just interesting that you have never characterized Pakistan as “fascist” or “racist” because of it’s declared preference of one specific religion over all others (it is right there in the name). In fact, you have referred to it as “your beloved state”. But you keep vilifying Israel for being a Jewish state. If you are such a champion of state secularization, why won’t you start with your beloved state first, instead of vilifying a completely foreign one. Looks like a monumental case of hypocrisy to me.

@khoji

The Nobel peace laureate said he was “very deeply distressed” by a visit to the Holy Land, adding that “it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa”.
“Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful,** but in the end they bit the dust**,” he said.

I don’t see he had something to say about Zionism. I can also mention the Nobel Prize laureates who were/are known for their support of Zionism, like Menachem Begin, Ytzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Elie Wiesel, Andrei Sachrov, etc.
So, what does it prove?

[khoji]

@AlexB

Spartans were actually a small subset of the Greeks.

Greeks ceased to be Spartans, because Spartans were assimilated in surrounding populations. Now it is not possible for a Greek to call himself Spartan. Same analogy holds true for ancient Jews and some people claiming to be descended from them.
Every person on earth would in the end be descended from some common ancestor in Africa. But that does not make us all African.

It is only ~3000 years of scientifically verified continuous history of the Jewish people and the Jewish national identity against you. But I’m sure you won’t let facts confuse you. Otherwise you won’t be able to support your argument:)

Science does not support the concept of race in the first place, let alone a “nation” based on a “race” that existed thousands of years ago in some religious texts.

Apparently, some sites are more holy than others, like Jerusalem (al-Quds) or Al-Aqsa Mosque. Otherwise you won’t be hearing frequently about the holy Muslim sites in Palestine (which you do).

Sure. Some sites are more holy. What’s the point?

Regrading the holyness of the whole land, is it in the Quran? Would you provide the specific verse?

Quran does not even specify the “holyness” of Medina either. Yet it is holy.

What is the problem of this holiness with the Zionism? I’m sure that as long as it does not interfere with the right of self-determination of the Jewish people in their homeland, this Muslim holiness has no implication for the Zionism.

Zionists are foreign occupiers in that Islamic land.

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles;

Will it be open for Palestinian immigration too?
If it gives right of “return” to some foreigners based on some fictitious concept then it should also give the right of return to people who were thrown out a few decades ago.
If it doesn’t give everyone this right then it is a racist state, not a democratic one.

It is just interesting that you have never characterized Pakistan as “fascist” or “racist” because of it’s declared preference of one specific religion over all others (it is right there in the name).

How can a country formed because of majority of people belonging to one RELIGION (not race) be considered a RACIST country?

instead of vilifying a completely foreign one.

A “foreign” one? My ancestors used to be Arabs a thousand year ago, while your “supposed ancestors” were Jewish several thousand years ago.
So who is more of a foreigner when it comes to that issue?
(Jesus Christ! People, just look at the hocus pocus this guy is discussing here. lol)

I don’t see he had something to say about Zionism. I can also mention the Nobel Prize laureates who were/are known for their support of Zionism, like Menachem Begin, Ytzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Elie Wiesel, Andrei Sachrov, etc.
So, what does it prove?

You were talking about how “noble” the Zionist cause is. And I gave an example of what some people think of Zionist practices of apartheid. That was just one example. So much for “nobility” of that racist cause.

Here is Nelson Mandela talking about the “noble” cause of Zionism:

http://www.mathaba.net/info/mandela.htm
“We consider ourselves to be comrades in arms to the Palestinian Arabs in their struggle or the liberation of Palestine. There is not a single citizen in South Africa who is not ready to stand by his Palestinian brothers in their** legitimate fight against the Zionist racists**…”

[khoji]

Re: Cowardly Idf Soldiers, amazing clip

Alex Khazar, what constitutes a race according to science?