Cow Parade

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Cow Parade

Actually, the videos were forwarded by a friend of mine from Ramkrishna Mission, Mumbai.
Though, I realize, you may be right about voice, but main thing is entire discourse is in texts as well and explanations of Vedanta by Vivekananda carry authority IMHO.

[quote]
And as far as idol worship goes, upanishads have negative connotations or verses towards idol worship. That much i can say with confidence. Not because it is an insult to some god sitting somewhere, but due to something else
[/quote]

I will come back to Upanishads after this.

First, I have a simple thought.

Correct me if you think I am wrong - but isn't the Hindu concept of God very simple - and one that is followed by people everywhere???

That is "God is everywhere, all around you and in all forms. That tree outside has God within, you have God within yourself and that rock there has God in it"
God is formless and yet has all these forms!!!:)

Is this so difficult to agree with??? Is it so difficult to teach???

As an aside: The much maligned "Idol worship" by Islamists never realize that
people are not worshipping an object or a rock. It only means that God can be accessed anywhere anytime, in any form within the joy of our own consciousness, the joy by which we imagine Him or are taught to imagine Him, in any form We, the Atman imagine Him and He is valid.
For the same reason Jehovah and Allah are equally valid as God.

Having said that, it's relevant here to quote an instance from life of Vivekanada, when he was asked that-- do you think God exists in that rock?
His reply was "yes".

Eidi mile gi?
22

Re: Cow Parade

With little understanding of Upanishads, I can remember is something from Brihadranyaka Upanishad --- Sakalya asks Yajnavalkya-- "how many gods are there".
And the answer pregressively comesdown somewhere from more than 3000 to 1.

So conceptual representation of Vedic gods/godesses existed since ancient times.

The Mundaka Upanishad and the Bhagwad-Gita both give "form" to Ishvara through cosmic allegories.

The concept of monotheism (or to be more accurate pantheism -- one can worship the all encompassing--in any way) is fairly well explained in Katho-Upanishad through dailogues of Nachiketa and Yam.

So there are Mono-theistic references in Hinduism prior to the advent of other faiths in India.

But the "Monotheism" as understood in the "West" and among "Islamists" **differs **from the "Non-Dualism" of Vedic Dharma.
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic "monotheism" is actually according to me is a "pseudo-monotheism" since it considers that Universe is a "Creation" from "Nothing".

Beauty of Vedic Sanatan Dharma is here once again as we know the Vedic non-dualism is pan-theism, beacuse one Brahman(God) is both the Upadana Karana and Nimitta Karana (meaning-- material and instrument cause).

23

Re: Cow Parade

[quote="Matrubhoomi, post:18, topic:165232"]

With little understanding of Upanishads, I can remember is something from Brihadranyaka Upanishad --- Sakalya asks Yajnavalkya-- "how many gods are there".
And the answer pregressively comesdown somewhere from more than 3000 to 1.

So conceptual representation of Vedic gods/godesses existed since ancient times.

The Mundaka Upanishad and the Bhagwad-Gita both give "form" to Ishvara through cosmic allegories.

The concept of monotheism (or to be more accurate pantheism -- one can worship the all encompassing--in any way) is fairly well explained in Katho-Upanishad through dailogues of Nachiketa and Yam.

So there are Mono-theistic references in Hinduism prior to the advent of other faiths in India.

But the "Monotheism" as understood in the "West" and among "Islamists" differs from the "Non-Dualism" of Vedic Dharma.
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic "monotheism" is actually according to me is a "pseudo-monotheism" since it considers that Universe is a "Creation" from "Nothing".

Beauty of Vedic Sanatan Dharma is here once again as we know the Vedic non-dualism is pan-theism, beacuse one Brahman(God) is both the Upadana Karana and Nimitta Karana (meaning-- material and instrument cause)./quote]

The bold part do you want me to go ahead with the rebuttal as again you have made some conclusions out of nothing. I am up for it shall we go ahead, well its fantastic this same words are there in the Quran and once again beautiful rebuttal is given.
Secondly the same concept prevailed in Arabia before the advent of Islam, and none of the intellectuals good challenge the Quran. Well again i present myself to you once you confirm you will have a fair discussion, and go along with me till we come to some final conclusion.
Remember again, we have to be cool, calm, and unbiased when we discuss, how i love to discuss the concept of Creator and creation.
No religious scriptures used from my side, I will use just logic and common sense. No concept of Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism will be used also.

24

Re: Cow Parade

yeah....advaitha of upanishads differs from monotheism that is currently preached. Saying there exists one god is not a complete statement, say there exists ONLY god...that makes a complete statement. and I agree with what all you said...looks logical. But let me tell these things again...

Upanishads preach everyone to realize "You are THAT(god)".....to realize this, creating an image in mind won't help. Infact mind will be struck if it is done. Goal is to realize that your consciousness is equal to THAT infinite consciousness. Brihadaryanka upanishad does mention that there is only fun in infinite which has to be realized. ....at the same time, isa upanishad, though tells what i said here also tells even other things which would try give different picture.....the only logical explanation in support of idol worship which i found was this statement "A cats god is cat, a mans god is man" by swami vivekananda...majority of humans mind or cats mind thinks that god is like them only. whatever...required more discussion or even more has to do with a persons experiences/realizations rather than right away assuming whatever a scripture tells is true, and i am bored of discussing these things again and again.

25

Re: Cow Parade

Sure...be my guest brother :)

I am all for learning.

But as you said, arrive a conclusion that why Monotheism preached by Judeo-Christian-Islamists is not different from Adviata (Non dualism) of Vedantic Dharma. or whatever you feel is "logical" as you said.

I have stated example of Abrahmic religions preaching of creator and creations....is there anything different you have to conclude then?..If that is so, I will be happily learning.

The Random Thread
26

Re: Cow Parade

I am in total agreement with you...or as they say in Hindi/Sanskrit -- "sadhu! sadhu!":)

However, It is necessary here to record the flexibility and frankness exhibited by the Upanishadic seers.

The knowledge of Brahman-Atman elucidated in these ancient texts is of course a declaration of the great sages who ‘saw it all’. But they never say it as a dogma. Nor are we supposed to receive them as dogmatic assertions.

The beauty of their teaching is that they ask us to enquire within ourselves and arrive at own conclusions, step by step, checking with the Upanishadic teachings at each step.

To help one in this search after truth they give their intermediate conclusions also. The final conclusion, according to them, is a realisable truth, which forms therefore an axiom – a single axiom from which the entire science of vedanta and metaphysics is built up by accepted forms of logic. This single axiom is enunciated in four different ways in the vedas.

These are the four grand pronouncements or Mahavakyas in conclusion:

Prajnam Brahma – Rgveda, aitareyopanishad

Aham Brahma Asmi – Yajurveda, Brahdranyaka Upanishad

Tat Tvam Asi – Samveda, Chandogya Upanishad

Ayam Atma Brahma – Atharva veda, Mandukya Upanishad,

meaning, respectively

*Absolute Consciousness is Brahman; *

*I am Brahman; *

*Thou art That; *

This Atman is brahman.

Each of these pronouncements is subjected to an intensive analysis by the commentators belonging to each school of philosophy.

However the differences in the interpretations by the different Acharyas should not matter in one’s daily life.

It is as if there exists a multidimensional Reality of which each individual perception has only an one-dimensional projection of the Reality before it, and, perhaps, each in a dimensional axis. You are free to choose that one which is appropriate to your taste, evolution, training and tradition

This is why I feel Hinduism is **ALSO* Great*

Meaning Of Girl . . . :D
27

Re: Cow Parade

As i have already stated there will be no religion in between my discussion, let it be common sense and logical, according to human laws.

My first question is it possible for creation and creator to be one and the same.
If the answer is yes, then please explain how and why.

28

Re: Cow Parade

According to advaitha, saying there is one god is not a complete statement, saying there is ONLY god, makes a complete statement. ONLY is important. And by this phylosophy, there is no creator or creation. what you see is just termed as a dream and something which always existed. The one inside you, me and everyone else and also the prakriti(sorroundings) has no starting point and has no ending point. It always existed.

numerous drops of water come together to form ocean. Finally, It is uniform through out. hope this vague analogy helps.

The 'drops' beings the 'purusha' inside everyone of us, 'prakriti' as well(if am right) and Ocean being 'God'. This can only be felt properly by meditating(according to those who practise it which i know some of them). It has to do with personal experiences, rather than others explaining it.

29

Re: Cow Parade

Thanks ssingh for your explanation as i mentioned earliers i am looking for
1. No religious connotation.
2. No abstract world
3. Only common sense and logic

30

Re: Cow Parade

SOA -- I request, you have to stop playing "mind-games".
When you think about "Creator", you cannot seperate yourself from "faith".

You cannot "pose" like an "atheist" and still discuss about "Creator" and "Creation".

I know at the end you will give your "knowledge" about "Creator and Creation" and conclude that this confirms with Islam's established definition.

Don't feel bad, but frankness is necessary.

Now, as SSingh has already highlighted above, Advaita or Non-Dualism is different from Dualism of Judeo-Christian-Islamic concepts--where Creator and Creations are treated as seperate from each other.

This "Truth" of Upanishadic seers can only be realized NOT explained, that is why explaining this through sentences is vague.

However, I will let Upanishad explain THIS through one more way --------

31

Re: Cow Parade

There is this dialogue happening between Yajnavalakya and Maitreyi --

Thus spoke Yajnavalakya ---

"" It is – as from a lighted fire, kindled with damp fuel, various clouds of smoke arise, even so, my dear, from this Great Being have issued forth what we have as Rg Veda, yajur-veda, sAma-veda, AtharvAngirasa, Upanishads, verses, aphorisms, glosses and commentaries. From Him indeed are all these breathed forth.

It is – as of all waters the ocean is the centre , as of all kinds of touch the skin is the centre, as of all smells the nose is the centre, as of all tastes the tongue is the centre, as of all sounds the ear is the centre, as of all intentions the mind is the centre, as of all arts the heart is the centre, as of all actions the hands are the centre, as of all movements the feet are the centre, as of all the vedas the speech is the centre.

It is – as a lump of salt thrown into water becomes dissolved into water and could not be seized again, but wherever one takes the water one tastes salt, even so, my dear, this great Being, infinite and boundless, is only a mass of consciousness. It emerges from these elements and vanishes again with them.

BUT When it is **gone,** there is no more (individual) consciousness. This is what I say, my dear.

Then Maitreyi said: ‘Here you have bewildered me, Sir, by saying that when he is gone there is no more consciousness’.

Yajnavalkya replied, ‘Surely, I am not saying anything bewildering. It is wisdom enough, my dear. For when there is duality, as it were, then one smells another, one sees another, one hears another, one speaks to another, one thinks of another, one understands another. But when everything has become the Self, then by what and whom should one hear, by what and to whom should one speak, by what and of whom should one think, and by what and whom should one understand? By what should one know that by which all this is known? By what, my dear, should one know the knower?

SOA, If at all you are for seeking of knowledge, analyse above from Upanishads with patience, It will make Dualism and Non-Dualism (Advaita) clear.

But still no one except THAT who has Realized THIS can reject your concept of Dualism.

So both concepts hold good in Hinduism.

Request you to explain your concept now.

32

Re: Cow Parade

Thanks a lot, take care i am out of it anyways. I was only talking about common sense and logic and no religion. Well, if you feel that way fair enough.
Thanks a lot and I am out of it, not because i dont wont to discuss, its because you have already made your decision and concluded.
Secondly i dont have to play mind games, unlike others i dont argue to win but to learn but though few of them say they come here for learning but at the end its how you win.
Thats one reason i like it when USR, psyah are around here and ofcourse not to forget LB, all of them come here with sound reasoning and to discuss and learn more.

Thirdly, I never spoke about hinduism, christianity, islam, judaism.

33

Re: Cow Parade

:DHe is jumping to quote from scriptures and to an extent even i did. ....

comman sense, logic and reason...I have one question...do unbelievers go to hell just because they are not believers, answer this without quoting any verses from any scripture using logic, comman sense and reason.....it should not be very painful, as this thread anyhow was intended to make fun at someone else...

34

Re: Cow Parade

Hell or Heaven...Conduct of society determines whether it lives in Hell or Heaven. Belief or No Belief..has nothing to do with it.

35

Re: Cow Parade

Dear dear, I haven't made decision or conclusion, I was bluntly frank.

you know "mind-games" just happen, we won't even realize. Why I accused you of this because you were repeatedly insisting to "explore" Creator-Creation myth without affiliating to faith. Bhrata, tell me, is it possible?

I repeat-- the moment you will talk about "creator", faith will automatically come in picture. You cannot remain an atheist and still believe in 'Creator"? Can you?

So How come your insisting that no involvement of any religion/faith can be logical?

That is why I accused and now correct myself that you unknowingly got trapped in "mind-games".

But again, if this doesn't cool your anger, my apologies.

Now, please enlighten us about Creation and Creator from your point of view or Islamic point of view or both, I will read and understand.

36

Re: Cow Parade

Actually, I started this, just to differentiate between Monotheism of JCI and Advaita of SD.

So quoting from Upanishads is OK since I haven't yet realized Brahamn :D

37

Re: Cow Parade

With due respect me and anger no way, tell me does it bother to me by anyway if you dont answer and accuse me no way. I will say ok fine, you dont wont it that way and if you feel its mind games then i agree with you completely.
Why i said about creator and creation is because i myself was an ex-athiest so you know were i am coming from nor like i m flaunting about myself, thats why i feel it has to be logical and common sense before believing in God, i just cant believe in God just coz its there in the Quran, i just cant believe in Prophet just coz its there in the Quran i need some evidences for this proof.

Well secondly i wanted to just answer to your rebuttal otherwise ti will be considered arrogance from my side because running away from thread without discussing is not considered good according to me.

Regarding the Quran the creator and creation are different, and it fits in the mind of a logical person thats why i believe in the Quran otherwise i have no reason to believe in the Quran. Leave alone me being born as a Muslim and i think i will go to paradise, well now I jsut thank God not even bothering i will go to hell or paradise, i am just grateful to God and leave it to Allaah as he is the one to decide my final abode.

And i am extremely sorry, if i have hurt you in anyway i dont have such intentions.

38

Re: Cow Parade

Regardint the question whether going to hell or heaven i say its faith no doubt regarding that, but according to me its first rationality of the existence of God before deciding a faith. I never mentioned any faith coz we were discussing in terms of creator and creation, its only after you have realized through logical reasoning
1) First there is a creator
2) Creator is distinct from creation.
Those are first two questions, i would actually look at before deciding any faith, once the questions are answered then faith enters into my heart.
Once faith enters into my heart then i can say you can go hell or heaven.
So its a catch 22 situation according to me first believe in the creator, then creator has a creation, then yes we can talk about hello or heaven.
I hope i have been clear hopefully:D .

Well, what i feel is when muslims are questioned, we take pain to answer each and every question, but when non-muslims are questioned they immediately flinch and start accusing us. This is just not happened once but umpteen no. of times where non-muslims dont tend to answer but instead try to turn the tables, this is just because they have no answers.

This is just out of experience i am stating, coz i expected its going to turn out this way well i am again sorry if i have hurt your feelings i have no such intention and please forgive me if i have hurt you in one way or the other.

Consider me, as a student learing things.:)

39

Re: Cow Parade

there aint no physically existing hell or physically existing heaven my mannn.. its just abstract shyte to make you a better human being. when you die.. you die.. you aint going nowhere except beneath the earth to disintegrate and be a part of mother earth.. thre aint nothing but a big FULL STOP after death :) live it up !!

cheers

ps - im not open to debating my views, i dont want to listen any quotes from the quran or the bible or the geeta... its just my opinion.. you can have ur own:)

40

Re: Cow Parade

i guess it is other way round also.

But here, you asked, i explained. The remaining part is the thinking part which is left to you. After thinking, if you cannot accept it, then you reject it, the same way i reject the existence of extra-cosmic entity called god.

things yyou want to hug this eid