Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

Re: Cousin Marriage … Islam Allows it but…

The main cause is chance … we simply have a racial problem some of which would not be present if we were in our own environment - i.e. Pakistan. Otherwise it is not really a problem at all because the sample population could be skewed.

But if we look to trends the phenomenon is actually cancelling itself out yes people who do not have gene deficiency are slowly diminished, but at the same time people who express the problem are also diminished and we get a large pool of carriers.

This is based on a few assumptions … that it is limited gene pool and all pairings are unbiased and this pattern goes on for each generation … Within 7 generations statistically, expressed deficiency and non-deficient genes are nearly zero and everyone is a carrier … So it means every now and again you will get expressed deficiencies but that is less to do with cousins and more to do with tribe and gene pool limitations.

Most congenital diseases are visible so it is possible to remove these by consciously seeking out the healthiest people - unfortunately it is not the fact that cousins are getting married that is the problem … the problem is more likely rooted in parents getting their children married to their cousins who would clearly not be chosen out of natural interest … We see many cases where unhealthy/disorder expressing Brits - marry their fine cousin specimens purely because there is an arrangement in the family for it …

We should not necessarily reduce cousin marriages - but we should definitely not oblige our children to marry unhealthy cousins or unhealthy members of the tribe because that is what really puts strain on the gene pool … The natural order of things is that unhealthy specimens are selectively bred out … but we are deprived our natural selection due to our parents socio-familial politics.

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Look if we start off with equal ratios of N-no expression, C-Carriers, E-Expression, giving a 1:1:1 relationship, that is 4Ns, 4Cs and 4Es to create the most widespread pairings as possible … by having only one combination of a given pairing … then after each generation … the Es and Ns are reduced while the Cs are increased … this is based on the recessive gene model.

In reality we are more likely to veer towards Cs and Ns naturally by choice, because Es do not tend to get married or have as good jobs or die early and hence do not get offspring.

The only thing is that the Pakistani gene pool is already saturated (before coming to the UK) with lots of Cs - (carriers) … and the White gene pool is not … Going by this data the best thing to do is to promote interracial marriages.

Re: Cousin Marriage … Islam Allows it but…

thx Pyash…

issue is that you have already made up your mind when you said “can you seriously see something made halal for us by Allah (SWT) and RasoolAllah (SAW) could harm us in any way?” and what you are trying to do by your analysis is to defend this statement with a preconceived notion…appreciate your religious passion but that is not the way you do research…if we go by your thesis, no need of ijtihad, ijmah or qiyas…just lakeer kay faqeer. Islam is far more progressive than what you think…

Dear pyash, I must say that you have been intellectually dishonest in your analysis. Of course, we all know that if a pakistani marries a german girl and if cousin marriages occur in that family in next generation, it would be of a less to no problem … so YES one can say that the concept of cousin marriage is not the problem in itself rather we shd focus on marrying in other races but of-course if you continue practicing cousin marriage (even second or third cousin marriages) over a longer period in Pakistani-german racial arrangement, serious problems will start to emerge. There is a lot of scientific data to prove that.

The point i am trying to make is that YES first cousins related via a single channel are obviously far less at risk than those whose ancestors have** interwoven DNA** for 300 years (the Amish) or 1,300 years (Islam entered Pakistan in 712 AD.) …

… now lets get to the point that you are making in relation to “non-cousin marriages giving birth to babies with health issues in inida/pakistan at a higher rate”…this is not a relevant point as this group also shares a serious interwoven DNA history in a flat genetical society via cousin marriages at some point in their lineage history…maybe not at the point of survey but definitely at some point in the history.

let me give you an example…say i ama rajput muslim and i marry to a rajput muslim girl whose family has no history of marrying my family for last 50 years but i can guarantee you that in last 1000 years these 2 rajput muslim familes had married to each other for many many generations because rajputs pride in their ancestral superiority plus they dont want the land to go out of the family…and hence partners from these rajput families carried a defect in any of the genes associated with some form of illness, which can then show up even 6 generations later…same is true abt jats and syeds…you see my point?and who allowed them?..Islam who allowed such marriages.

so what isthe solution…Societies like USA are racially diverse, but those who have relatively flat racial profiles genetically like pakistan/india prohibit at minimum the cousin marriage …Ethiopia appears the most prohibitive: it bans marriage between relatives out to 6th cousins. South Korea bans out to 3rd cousins; Taiwan and The Philippines ban first cousins, as does China, ever since it’s 1981 Marriage Act. South America is also very very strict about the cousin marriages.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

oh i see...so we can use our commonsense for everything but not for alcohol? why? why double standard...why not apply your logic for honey to alcohol?

now you can easily label PD as a guy who is a drunkard ******* and someone who is trying to justify alcohol one way or the other but that wont be productive! at least from discussion standpoint...

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

lets address this issue from a social perspective...

why different generations prefer cousin marriages? social scientists say that different races prefer cousin marriages for thousand of years for 2 main reasons:
1) to keep their ancestral superiority and not to pollute the race
2) to make sure that land and other goods stay within family

It is difficult to understand why Islam allowed cousin marriages at the first place and by doing so encouraged nu-healthy trends both physically and socially

imagine if cousin marriage was haram in islam like alcohol or pork, our societies would have been far more diverse and healthier socially, mentally and physically

ladies and gentlemen...just look at this data of muslim world:

Where do cousins marry? Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia are the most consanguineous regions in the world, largely due to its general acceptance, even preference, in Islam.
In India, the Muslim rate of cousin marriage is 22%, with the rate nearly doubling to 40% in Jammu and Kashmir.
Pakistan, noted earlier, is the world leader in consanguinity with around 70%;
Saudi Arabia is 50+%;
Iran and Afghanistan are 30-40%,
Iraq 33%,
Egypt and Turkey 20+%,
and Qatar 54%.

Subsaharan Africa is estimated between 35-50%, with Nigeria’s opinion split tribally: Hausas prefer cousin marriage, Yorubas condone it; Igbos ban it.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

I am talking about permissible things that are made halal by Allah SWT. In my example, water, honey and cousin marriages are all permissible. What I am saying is that if there is a genuine reason to avoid a certain permissible act, then there is no harm of not practicing it. Allah will not ask on day of judgement why you didn't drink water from Ravi as running water is paak. Allah knows how we have polluted it and its harmful for the health. Therefore filtered water makes sense. Same for cousin marriages. If there are (and I have seen some cases in my circle) deficiencies happening by marrying first cousins, then it makes sense to avoid them.

Whats the big deal in my post that made you post like that? kya dhukti rug pe paaon rakh diya anjaane mein? I don't know you personally so any analogy I provided might be coincidently collide with your view point/life style.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

Islam didn't abolish slavery openly, but Prophet SAW's teaching and actions made it clear how slaves should be treated.
Cousin marriage is an option given by Islam, not a mandatory thing. The criteria given by Prophet SAW for rishta is detailed in Ahadeeth and none of it mention 'priority for first cousin' or marry within the family.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

The ulema are doing their job just fine. There's no ijtihad in clearly defined matters, which includes hurmat for marriage. The comparison with alcohol and pork make no sense. It's not just because of the harm that they might cause you that they're forbidden. They're clearly forbidden, so there's nothing to discuss there. Just because the permission for cousin marriage is there, it doesn't mean there is a compulsion for it.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

that is fine smoothhhhh guy! remain smooth .....

anyway, we have made our points...so kush raho!

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

well aap to mahan scholar hain...

you are captain and on top of that that you are captain obvious....so obviously you know everything!!!

mai aik jahil addami hoon...so i cannot respond to your obvious scholarly captain-ship!

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

Peace phoenixdesi

I take partiality to being accused of being intellectually dishonest ... It is the newspapers that are being dishonest ... Not me ...

To prove myself right ... Just look at my calculations above ... If you understand them ...

The idea behind cousin marriage causing genetic deficiencies should be clear and distinct from the Pakistanis generally having kids among themselves and it is not ... As I said the data not my bias but the data shows otherwise ... When I cross-examined the data I did so purely on scientific grounds ... If you can show where I have been mistaken then please examine the figures I have given and question me over them.

The issue is minuscule but it is propagated as a major problem ...

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

That made me chuckle.

Dates are considered one of fruits of paradise yet eating too much dates in this world can also give you a nose bleed. Same approach needs to be taken towards cousin marraiges, one of cases may get a pass but some families (especially from Mirpur/Azad Kashmir) have an open history of only cousin marriages which has been taking place for generations and generation. In some families, you would not a single case of outside marriage. Too much inbreeding is not sexy at all. More than the Ulema, it's the Western authorities that need to considerably restrict (impose a 'soft ban' if you like) on cousin marriages because 99.9% of the time, one of the cousin partner is imported. I do not like this trend at all.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

it is not a question of mandatory or not mandatory... unlike alcohol/pork, this issue has severe implications for coming generations....so the question is why Islam allowed this door to remain open and let people misuse it grossly... i am not criticizing anyone just trying to understand

As i said earlier ... even before islam came, cousin/inter-family marriages were there for 2 main reasons:
1) to keep one's self-perceived ancestral superiority and not to pollute the race
2) to make sure that land and other goods stay within family

Islam by design promotes anything that breaks ancestral superiority syndrome ... and it definitely does not promote anything that allows families gain financial clout by consolidating it ... then why did islam allow cousin marriage and give its followers a choice to practice it to promote 1) and 2)?

last but not least, we believe that Islam knows everything that is good and bad for us...then how-come islam remained immune to health-related issues emerging from cousin or inter-family marriages?

Allah knows that I am not criticizing my religion...i am legitimately curious and it is my right to find the answer...

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

first and foremost..i take my "intellectually dishonest" comment back and i apologize....

second, i never said that statistically speaking your analysis is wrong....but when you do research you go beyond numbers....almost always!

I do understand your analysis but i was shedding light on your conclusions....here is what you said

"surprisingly the rest 3205 children had among them 195 children who had congenital problems born of Brit-Paks who were not cousins, which is 6.1%....So here the children of non-cousin parents had MORE problems than the children of cousin parents !!! The problem of congenital diseases is more to do with race than it is to do with marrying cousins"

and i am saying that **statistically speaking **your conclusion will be valid not only for this small data-set of mirpur based pakbrit but it will be valid also for whole punjab or even for whole pakistan...but that is just one part and I then reflected on this conclusion from historical perspective

I am saying that this is not a relevant point as this non-cousin group also shares a serious interwoven DNA history in a flat genetic society like ours via cousin marriages at some point in their lineage history...maybe not at the point of survey but definitely at some point in the history.

this is a very important point...Let me give you my personal example.....I am a rajput muslim, parents also rajputs (not cousins) and their parents also rajputs (second cousins) and then their parents also rajputs (not first cousin but closely related)....my wife is also a rajput muslim, her parents also rajputs and so on....of course my wife and I are not cousins and god forbidden, if we have a "not-normal kid", statistically it will automatically fall under your "not-cousins but giving birth to not-normal kids" bucket ...but it wont be fair.....i can guarantee you that considering both me and my wife belong to rajput clan and been living in Punjab for over 1000 years, at some point these 2 families must have close inter family marriages....and that gene can show up anytime.....

jats, syeds and many other tribes do the same in indo-pak

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

I am not questioning your intentions either. I know you have a genuine concern. But Islamic laws are here to stay till day of judgement and we don't know what circumstances one might come across in future. But in past and even present if someone is in an isolated desert setting and there is only handful of households, what that poor guy will do. His best bet would be to marry his daughter within the family, instead of giving her hand to a complete stranger.
There could be numerous other scenarios where cousin marriage will come handy. And having cousins marriage randomly in every 4th or 7th generation would not have the same impact as we are seeing in Mirpuri community in UK or villages in general in Pakistan. People do marry in family to save wealth and other self imposed restrictions due to their lack of education. Their continuous act for generations/centuries has highlighted and magnified this issue. Otherwise a random cousin marriage should not be a big health issue.

I blame lack of education as the core issue here. Ulema, community leaders and desi doctors can educate the masses (specially those who lived entire lives in west but their brains are stuck in pinds).

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

  • last but not least, we believe that Islam knows everything that is good and bad for us...then how-come islam remained immune to health-related issues emerging from cousin or inter-family marriages?* ]]]

Same can be said about beef. We all know the excessive use of it is very damaging. Then how come pork is haram but not beef.
Anybody can easily answer this riddle.

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

that is what I meant by importance of interwoven DNA history in a flat genetic society like Indo/Pak ....so what can we do? and that is why i gave you example of some other genetically flat societies...

Koreans, Japanese, Philippines, and chinese always fascinate me becsue they are geneticlaly flat liks us....and indeed they are prohibitive: like i said in my earlier post, South Korea bans out to 3rd cousins; Taiwan and The Philippines ban first cousins, as does China, ever since it’s 1981 Marriage Act. South America is also very very strict about the cousin marriages.

that is all....i get your data analysis and i have made my point....so jazak aallah!

Re: Cousin Marriage … Islam Allows it but…

While it is allowed in Islam, personally I wouldn’t ever have done it because a) someone who shares grandparents with me, well getting kissy wissy with them would too creepyish for me and b) in an imaginative world in a different life and under the heavy influence of drugs and coercion had it happened me and my girl cousin(s) would probably race to see who jumps off a cliff faster

Each to their own though, for some people it works and good for them


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Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

That is a great suggestion but i know that the moment western govts will do that all hell will break loose and Muslims will start screaming that their religious freedom has been compromised..

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

I absolutely respect and cheer the flexibility shown by islam by allowing marrying to your cousins...but obviously human beings will always misuse flexibilities...and muslims have indeed done that in this case ....and that is why we have ijtihad/ijma/qiyas concept....at some point if this issue gets out of control, we muslims need to think abt it from a fresh perspective and even consider banning it if needed. that is all

Re: Cousin Marriage ... Islam Allows it but.....

I completely agree. Same for population control too. If the population is exploding to a point where there is a chance of chance of drought, famine or even a civil war on resources. The best bet would be to have a China-like one child policy for decade or two. Avoiding greater fitna is always the top priority in Islamic teachings, hence a ijtehad over these things will be necessary.