Converts vilify Islam in book

I did not appreciate the comments of the Baptist Mullah but I disliked - even more so the defense that was mounted by CAIR in which it claimed by citing the verse from quran [3:84] or Islam,
“makes no distinction between itself and the ahle kitabis”

Or, CAIR was suggesting that islam loved the christians & the jews and whoever said anything different does not understand Islam!

CAIR and “most of muslims” know this is a lie; but, why spoil a good thing!

Deep in their heart they knew how the ahle kitabis stacked up and is spelled out immediately in the following verse or [3:85]
“whosoever follows other than Islam is a loser and his abode is hell-fire”

Maybe, CAIR is better advised to just - speak the truth! It should know that people in the USA and elsewhere now understand Fundamentalist Islam better than they ever did! Here’s a definite proof:

Converts vilify Islam in book

The two brothers, Muslim converts to Christianity, had been working hard to win over Southern Baptist leaders – ex-SBC president Vines included – to their views about Islam.
http://newsobserver.com/news/story/1485522p-1516293c.html

** Groomed hatred? **

excerpts from the above URL:-----

[quote]
** As boys growing up in Ohio** , the two converted to Christianity ** after being invited to a Baptist church in their neighborhood when they were teenagers**

Emir Caner said the break came at dinner ** when he was 12 years old.** "I told him I could not pray to Allah anymore.** I found ** Jesus Christ as my savior," Caner recalled. "He said, 'You either choose between me or your religion.' " Acar Mehmet Caner reconciled with his boys before dying in 1999.

The boys** attended Criswell College, where they first met Patterson, a man they both affectionately refer to as a surrogate father.** They followed him to Southeastern seminary, ** where they both earned master's degrees** . After the attacks of Sept. 11, ** Patterson encouraged them to write the book, and he read the draft before it went to the publisher.**

These days, the brothers, ages 31 and 35, have been ** booked solid for church appearances and are making the rounds among Christian radio and TV outlets**
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : By the shear amount of money and effort made by Christians , it is embarrassing to note that they were only able to achieve this.

1) 12 year old and a 8 year old, being misled and stolen from their parents! Al they would have needed were some toys and candies to do the job.

2) Given education and misguided by the misguided . How does an 8 year old or 12 year old know about Islam at this age and time living in ohio?

3) After 23 years of hatred and brainwashing what else will they be saying except what they have been programmed to, by their mentor ?

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited June 24, 2002).]

looks like a very hateful book, and it probably will contribute to the growing Islamophobia trend. That's too bad.

Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?

-Stu

[quote]
Originally posted by Stu:
Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Deat Stu,

All your ancestors married that way and is still practiced in India to this minute.

This practice was due to the system of life practiced in the past which was more nomadic and families wanted to arrange the marriage of their children in advance and more so because of revelations given in the hindu scripture ( which is the current corrupted teachings of prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) /Abraham / Brahma) as well as the Bible that any girl not betrothed can be Raped and will not be a crime if done .

The Bible in fact altered this to indicate when such things happened the girl will become the rapist wife forever , which was still a problem for the women since it punished the women rather than the man.

Anyway. All our forefathers would have married in this manner, which today seems absurd because we have progressed an adopted different values

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** Learn form the past don’t live in it **

[quote]
posted by Ibrahim:
Learn form the past don’t live in it"
[/quote]

INTERESTING comments coming from someone for whom the 7th century "WAYS" are for all eternity is now preaching:
'Live in the PRESENT and not the past'

Care to tell us - How Fundamentalist Islam may live in the present and not in the 7th century sunnah!

Is that possible for you and still be considered - muslim?

Malaysia is one of the wealthiest countries in Asia, it has seen outstanding growth over the past two decades under its leader Dr. Mahathir Muhammad. Malaysia is by all means a modern state, it reduced its poverty from around 50% in 1982 to around 7% presently under the leadership of Mahathir. I am not saying that Malaysia is an ideal state, but it has certainly improved alot compared to other countries in Asia. So here’s what Mahathir says about “fundamentalism”:

Mahathir’s ‘we’re fundamentalist’ shocked the West

Malaysian PM says the leaders he met agreed with his explanation

KUALA LUMPUR - Malaysia is an Islamic fundamentalist state as its policy is to abide by the fundamental teachings of Islam, Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said yesterday.

He told parliament he ‘shocked’ Western leaders with this explanation during recent visits to the United States and Europe.

‘When I said this they were shocked because they considered a fundamentalist as someone who is violent and did all kinds of bad things, but to me it is not,’ said Datuk Seri Dr Mahatir.

‘If we hold to the fundamentals of Islam, we will not become bad as Islam exhorts us to be on good brotherly terms, united, do good things and hence it is not wrong to be an Islamic fundamentalist.’

He was replying to a question from Parti Islam SeMalaysia (PAS) MP Hadi Awang, who is also chief minister of the state of Terengganu.

Dr Mahathir, usually seen as heading a moderate Islamic government, said when he explained his stance to the Western leaders, they agreed that their use of the word ‘fundamentalist’ had been inaccurate.

The Prime Minister, who has, this year, met United States President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Pope John Paul II among others, said many leaders had shown an interest in knowing more about Islam after the Sept 11 attacks.

The status of religion in the government has become central to domestic Malaysian politics in the wake of the terror attacks and a crackdown on Islamic militants.

The Chinese-based opposition Democratic Action Party has objected to Malaysia as an ‘Islamic state’, saying it was against the secular constitution and may make non-Muslims second-class citizens.

The hardline PAS, on the other hand, has derided the Prime Minister’s declaration as false and is putting it to the test by trying to impose strict Islamic shariah law in two states it controls.

Dr Mahathir has repeatedly told non-Muslims they have nothing to fear from his definition of the country as ‘Islamic’, while accusing PAS of wanting to impose an oppressive Taleban-like regime. – AFP, Bernama


“He who lives upon hope only will die fasting.”

Note from moderator: If you wish to discuss another topic, please open an alternative thread.

Sentinel.

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]

Actually ppl mistake that Ahl-e-kitab and jews and christians are different... the thing is that Allah has said in Quran that the religion of all Prophets WAS ISLAM...so when Quran Says:[3:85]
"whosoever follows other than Islam is a loser and his abode is hell-fire"
**
ofcourse it means the true followers of all Prophets sent by Allah. As said in Quran:
*3:19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom *(enchanted says: so what does this tell..this tells that ppl of the book actually followed ISlam in the begining but later as continued in this verse.)
except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.**

and again:**
2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
**

This clearly tells that religion of Ahl-e-kitab or ppl of the book was and is Islam.

[quote]
Originally posted by Stu:
**looks like a very hateful book, and it probably will contribute to the growing Islamophobia trend. That's too bad.

Ibrahim, is that true that the prophet was married to a 9-year old?

-Stu**
[/quote]

it is a big misconception!!! A nine year old!!.. iguess u ppl are talking abt hazrat ayesha because Hazrat khadija was 40 years old when she got married to Prophet Muhammad when he was only 25...rest of his wives were all widows or divorcees. Well i know he got married to her when she was quite young...sum scholars put tha age b/w 14 and 18....but not 9!!!child marriages are condemned in islam!!!..and well u don't even reach puberty at nine. I mean if Prophet Muhammad married a 15 yr older woman than himself and married all other women ONLY after the death of his 1st wife where does the concept of lust comes...can ppl today marry such old women and divorcees and widows???

[This message has been edited by enchanted (edited June 25, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 26, 2002).]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Nagarjuna dear, which means it is obvious you do not know Hinduism and its teachings.
According to Hinduism:

Kalki , the rider. This tenth and final incarnation of Vishnu is yet to appear on earth according to Hinduism . It is believed that Kalki will ride a white horse and wield a flaming sword with which he will destroy all evil. The coming of this fierce horseman will mark the end of this present age of evil, the kali yuga.

Ibrahim says: In addition to all this go here to find out who built the Kaa’bah http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003320.html

Ibrahim says: again it is pity you don’t know your scriptures so kindly read

** “Now a Brahmin may take four wives in the direct order of the (four) castes.” – Visnusmrti 24:1.**

Ibrahim says: This is still the approved laws as appearing in the Qur’an (Islam) , the latest and final revelation for mankind. A man is allowed to marry a maximum of four wives PROVIDED he can maintain them on an equal footing OTHERWISE he should marry ONLY ONE WOMAN

It was further approved in Hinduism that when a man has been some what cheated by the parents of the bridegroom, he can marry both of them (the woman shown to him as well as the woman he ended up marrying) at the same bride –price. Which clearly tells us that it was approved for a man marry two woman at the same time ** it further establishes that it was the Man who had to give a dowry to the Bride and NOT the other way round as it is practiced in Hinduism today. **

Read!

** One thing mixed with another should not be sold, nor anything that is spoiled, deficient, far away, or concealed If one girl is shown but another is given to the bridegroom, he may marry both of them for the single bride-price; that is what Manu says." ** – Manusmrti 8:203-4.

Ibrahim says: In fact a man can even complain that his wife is NOT a VIRGIN and end up collecting compensation as well as a new wife after exploring the one he just married in Hinduism

Ibrahim says: It was further approved that kings and rulers can have more than the approved four wives

Read!

When the king has taken counsel about all of this with his counsellors, and when he has exercised and bathed, he should enter the harem at noon to eat. There he should eat food over which Vedic verses that dispel poison have been chanted, food that has been well tested by kitchen servants who are like his second self, who cannot be seduced and who know the time (for food). And he should clean all of his articles with waters that destroy poison, and he should always be circumspect about wearing jewels that destroy poison. ** Well-tested women whose clothing and ornaments have been thoroughly cleaned should attentively caress him with fans, water, and incense.** In the same way, he should be careful about his carriage, bed, seat, and food, and about bathing, anointing and adorning his body, and all his ornaments. When he has eaten, he should take his pleasure with the women in the harem; and when he has taken his pleasure at the proper time, he should think again about the things he must do. In full regalia, he should inspect the armed forces again, and all the vehicles, weapons, and ornaments. When he has performed his twilight rituals, he should arm himself, and in the inner chamber he should hear about the movements of his spies and those who report secrets. When he has dismissed these people and gone to another inner chamber, he should again enter the harem to eat, surrounded by women. When he has again eaten something there, his spirits lifted by instrumental music, he should lie down and then arise at the proper time free from fatigue. A king should follow this regime when he is healthy; but when he is not well, he may entrust all of this to his retainers." – Manusmrti 7:216-226.

Ibrahim says: Now if this was not enough , ** Lord Krishna had 16,108 wives,** Lord Visnu & Brahma also had multiple consorts and Ksatriyas are recorded in the itihasas (Mahabharata/Ramayana/etc.) as having as many as thousands of wives & thousands of progeny. Even Rama’s father had four wives .

** Now Lord Krishna not only have 16108 wives he also had 10 children from each of them and ended up murdering all of them because he cannot cope up with his responsibilities.**

Ibrahim says: Again another erroneous point as the scriptures reveals otherwise
Visit http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003212.html to have your answers.

Regards
Ibrahim

** the sin against life is hoping for another life and not discerning the truth behind the present life. **

br Ibrahim : Christians of today do not believe in the Oneness of Allah(SWT), i.e., they believe in the trinity making Jesus(AS)into a white Anglo saxon idle with a beard. CAIR needs to re-think its responses or rather re-formulate its responses. I think CAIR as an organization needs to strive for Allah(SWT) acceptance rather than acceptance from US politicians.

[quote]
**3. He would be a horse rider. Horses are no more used in the battles in the present day world, so the hope of the arrival of a horse rider to lead in the battle field to destroy the wicked in the present age of tanks and planes, is ridiculous. We shall have to search for the Kalki Avtar in the horse’s age.

  1. Sword would be his weapon. Again, hoping in future, when even the nuclear arsenal and missiles may become obsolete, for a personage who is wielding a sword is ridiculous. You will certainly have to go back to a few centuries in search of Kalki Avtar. ** [/quote]

intriguing logic Mr. Ibrahim..

care to explain your wait of the Mahdi or the second coming of Christ based on your favourite hadith stories which talk about warfare with a sword??

Ibrahim bhai, what a fantastic and informative post, Masha’Allah. Thank you and keep it up

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

You’ve stolen the show.


“He who lives upon hope only will die fasting.”

I would strongly like to urge the particpants of this thread to discuss the topic at hand.

If anyone wishes to probe another issue, please begin another thread.

Sentinel.

Sentinel I will go by your wishes.
Ibrahim,

1.What has Kalki Avtaar or Krishna's wives have to with Islam and Prophet Mohammed?

2.Even if some body claims to be the final prophet. Hindus are free to reject the claim!!

Can you say the same for Muslims?

I see you are trying to proove Kalki avtaar is actually Prophet Mohammed. I have seen this attempt before. Understand this.

3.Most HIndus treat these as a matter of belief, not an infallible fact they must acknowledge.
They are free to believe or not believe.
So don't drag your attitudes into Hinduism.

[quote]
Originally posted by Nagarjuna:
**Sentinel I will go by your wishes.
Ibrahim,

1.What has Kalki Avtaar or Krishna's wives have to with Islam and Prophet Mohammed?

2.Even if some body claims to be the final prophet. Hindus are free to reject the claim!!

Can you say the same for Muslims?

I see you are trying to proove Kalki avtaar is actually Prophet Mohammed. I have seen this attempt before. Understand this.

3.Most HIndus treat these as a matter of belief, not an infallible fact they must acknowledge.
They are free to believe or not believe.
So don't drag your attitudes into Hinduism.**
[/quote]

Islam is an organized religion.. Its based on certain precepts..
Hinduism is hardly an organized religion. Everyone worships their favorite god, there are different traditions, differnt practices etc. Since Hinduism was never organized but rather compiled, it doesn't really have a definition for what a Hindu is.