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Not everyone handles frustration/anger in a healthy manner. So lets say you're engaged to a guy who tends to become irate, insulting, and even verbally abusive if a woman disagrees with him (things must always be done how HE wants them done)........isn't it better you find this out now rather than after the nikah?
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When you are not face to face in real. All those things could be 'assumed' quite easily.... someone might just be having a passionate argument...the other might construe as ''verbally abusive and enraged''........ someone might make a joke or says something sarcastically........the other may take it as a serious insult......... ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON AT ALL............all these issues prop up when you are "discussing" everything to death.......be on phone or even skype.......
Isn't is better than the 2 people decide to break their engagement now versus getting divorced later?
What's reasonable is a totally individual question. Major life decisions should be discussed to make sure both parties are on the same page. But its difficult to just make a list and discuss everything like robots. General chit chat about random things can bring up issues that are small but still important. Having a difference in opinions or even an argument can be a good thing b/c you get to see how the other person reacts in that situation and whether or not two of you are capable of solving differences like mature adults. Not everyone handles frustration/anger in a healthy manner. So lets say you're engaged to a guy who tends to become irate, insulting, and even verbally abusive if a woman disagrees with him (things must always be done how HE wants them done)........isn't it better you find this out now rather than after the nikah?
In an arranged situation....I guess** the only topic I can think of right that should be left alone during the engagement period are details related to sex. **But otherwise...family, interest, religion, politics, hobbies, friends, children.....pretty much everything else should be fine.
And how are you gonna find out if the other person is frigid. I mean this has as much potential of ruining a marriage as all the other topics you listed.
And how are you gonna find out if the other person is frigid. I mean this has as much potential of ruining a marriage as all the other topics you listed.
Obviously the only way to know for sure that your fiancé is sexually compatible and doesn't have any "issues" is to actually sleep with them. Since this is not an option for practicing Muslims.....looks like this a risk that there's not getting around to right? In contrast....the issues I mentioned specifically doesn't really require one to go to drastic measures such an engaging in premarital sex. Point here isn't to get rid of ALL risks. Point is to MINIMIZE compatibility issues (when it comes to people's personality) while still staying with religious/cultural guidelines.
I think people should discuss important topics (priorities and plan out life together) but then I guess if you're engaged then hopefully the important topics have been discussed and there is mutual consensus on these things.
But people should avoid the slipperly slope of flirtation because the Shaitan is working hard on you to hook up before marriage and to break you up after marriage.
Obviously the only way to know for sure that your fiancé is sexually compatible and doesn't have any "issues" is to actually sleep with them. **Since this is not an option for practicing Muslims.....looks like this a risk that there's not getting around to right?
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When you put it that way...
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In contrast....the issues I mentioned specifically doesn't really require one to go to drastic measures such an engaging in premarital sex. Point here isn't to get rid of ALL risks. Point is to MINIMIZE compatibility issues (when it comes to people's personality) while still staying with religious/cultural guidelines.**
Besides there's always the risk of someone reporting all of it to their parents and now you get a reputation you didn't want. Or if the rishta doesn't work out and there's bad blood, someone just might get carried away and again your reputation is at stake.
That's probably a risk you have to take when going the arranged route :(.
And how are you gonna find out if the other person is frigid. I mean this has as much potential of ruining a marriage as all the other topics you listed.
Yeah, why exclude sex from the discussion topics? I find this completely hypocritical. One day you won't say the word sex, the next day you're sleeping together.
Some of my friends went to a pre-marriage counseling session at the hospital. It was a private session where a gynecologist explained fertility, contraceptives and common misconceptions. I mean honestly, how many soon-to-be-married desi folks are getting this info today? This info has more far-reaching impact on a couple's life than any discussion on hobbies and interests.
Yeah, why exclude sex from the discussion topics? I find this completely hypocritical. One day you won't say the word sex, the next day you're sleeping together.
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But isn't that what marriage is in Islam. I mean Paheli does have a point.
Some of my friends went to a pre-marriage counseling session at the hospital. It was a private session where a gynecologist explained fertility, contraceptives and common misconceptions. I mean honestly, how many soon-to-be-married desi folks are getting this info today? This info has more far-reaching impact on a couple's life than any discussion on hobbies and interests*.*
Educating folk is a whole other argument. What side you take depends on how religious you are.
But isn't that what marriage is in Islam. I mean Paheli does have a point.
I'm not Muslim, but I find the transition very abrupt.
Educating folk is a whole other argument. What side you take depends on how religious you are.
Educating does assume an openness to discussion. I'm not professing that people should have pre-marital sex. Just that in this day and age it is strange to brush this important subject under the carpet.
I'm not Muslim, but I find the transition very abrupt.
Well people probably don't jump into it right after marriage. Yeah they do share a bed, but I'm guessing it takes a few weeks or even months for some to get comfortable enough to get down to business.
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**I'm just guessing here. Married folk are in a better position to explain this.
Educating does assume an openness to discussion. I'm not professing that people should have pre-marital sex. Just that in this day and age it is strange to brush this important subject under the carpet.
But then the couple doesn't have to go for counselling together, they don't have to talk about it with each other before marriage ( they're going to eventually ). I agree people should know the basics of reproductive health, but respecting cultural boundaries is the only way of scoring public approval for such programs.
Even talking to a fiance is a concession in some households. You don't want to do anything to risk that privilege being taken away. If that is not the case, then you can use your own judgement on what kind of conversation is okay. Don't forget to consider how things might backfire though.
Saeed, I respect your opinion and also realize that I don't hold the popular opinion on this topic here :)
I just find the "oh we can't even mention sex before marriage" thing ridiculous. If it's going to be a huge part of your life post marriage, why keep it shrouded in secrecy? Our society (and not nitpicking on Pakistan here, India too) needs to grow up and treat sex as a normal part of adult life.
See, I don’t quite understand this. Why should engagements break on petty little things?! If you would work hard to overcome these things during a marriage, why can’t things be worked on during an engagement phase? Afterall, we are adults.
I’ve seen some engagements break off on the most minute things.
Yeah, why exclude sex from the discussion topics? I find this completely hypocritical. One day you won't say the word sex, the next day you're sleeping together.
Some of my friends went to a pre-marriage counseling session at the hospital. It was a private session where a gynecologist explained fertility, contraceptives and common misconceptions. I mean honestly, how many soon-to-be-married desi folks are getting this info today? This info has more far-reaching impact on a couple's life than any discussion on hobbies and interests.
Here is what I wrote with some important parts bolded in RED:
In an arranged situation....I guess the only topic I can think of right that should be left alone during the engagement period are details related to sex. But otherwise...family, interest, religion, politics, hobbies, friends, children.....pretty much everything else should be fine.
1) I never said sex should be totally excluded as a general topic. I specifically listed "children" as one of the topics that should be discussed.......which means couple should definitely discuss things like how many children they would want, how long after marriage they would like to have children etc. By writing "DETAILS related to sex"....I was referring to general chatter about favorite sexual positions, "stuff" they'd like to do after marriage etc. Hopefully this clears it up.
2) As for being involved in educational discussions like the one your friends did....as Saeed mentioned already.....couple doesn't have to be together in order to meet with a doctor to learn about fertility, contraceptives etc. There is no need for both to be present when receiving medical facts. They can each meet with a gynecologist on their own, and then bring up relevant knowledge when discussing the "children" topic (of course, if they're comfortable enough with each other to meet with a doctor together....nothing wrong with that either).
See, I don't quite understand this. Why should engagements break on petty little things?! If you would work hard to overcome these things during a marriage, why can't things be worked on during an engagement phase? Afterall, we are adults.
What's considered "petty" is a matter of individual opinion. Something you consider petty might be a huge deal to someone else. If a couple decides to break off an engagement for whatever reason.....clearly 1 or both of them believe their fiancé is not "the one" for them. What right does a 3rd party have to tell them that their reason for the break-up is petty? After all.....those two people are adults fully capable of making decisions regarding their own life right?
As for being involved in educational discussions like the one your friends did....as Saeed mentioned already.....couple doesn't have to be together in order to meet with a doctor to learn about fertility, contraceptives etc. There is no need for both to be present when receiving medical facts. They can each meet with a gynecologist on their own, and then bring up relevant knowledge when discussing the "children" topic (of course, if they're comfortable enough with each other to meet with a doctor together....nothing wrong with that either).
I guess we're sorta in agreement then :) I did not intend to say that every couple should visit a Dr together. Ultimately their level of comfort with each other decides how much and what is discussed.
I've never understood the whole 'talk as little as possible' thing..
Isn't it a bit strange that you can talk to your male work colleagues or friends from uni but not the guy you have to spend the rest of your life with??
If 'misunderstandings' are the issue how do you manage to have conversations with other people in real-life and not mess those up as well lol.. Most mature (and sane) adults know that even if there is a misunderstanding the way to clear it up is usually talk more to resolve it.. not avoid talking altogether..
Imo the main reason is that parents don't want you to find out something you might not like + back out and break off their precious engagement..
Most mature (and sane) adults know that even if there is a misunderstanding the way to clear it up is usually talk more to resolve it.. not avoid talking altogether..
The key word here is mature. Quite often parents are in a rush to get kids (especially girls) married off simply b/c of the imaginary age cut off (get them hitched before they get too old). Thus, they don't take into account whether or not the young adult is actually has the maturity to handle being married.
Imo the main reason is that parents don't want you to find out something you might not like + back out and break off their precious engagement..
Bingo! #1 concern here is the parents/family's izzat...what will people say if he/she breaks off engagement etc. The couple's happiness doesn't rank #1 in anyone's list when it comes to MOST of these strict arranged marriages IMO. From engagement to details of the wedding.....the underlying focus is always about not doing anything to bring negative attention/shame to the family.
