PLEASE DONOT MOVE THIS TO THE RELIGION FORUM. THIS IS A QUESTION ON CONSTITUTION AND AMMENDMENT IN 1974.
I have a question that I derived out of Madhanee thread “what Am I” in the general section.
Over the weekend I read the portions of the constitution of Pakistan specially the portions where an Ahmadi is
considered non-muslim. I understand the clause (I dont agree with it, bacause consitution has and should have
nothing to do with religion, but a narrow minded few think otherwise).
Article 106 clause 3 http://alhafeez.org/rashid/constipak.html
Also section 298b and c http://alhafeez.org/rashid/constipak1.html
About half through you will see the ammedments.
Now I also went to the Lahori Group website and found out that they dont consider Mirza Ghulam Sahib as the last
prophet. Actually their (Lahori Group) beliefs are very much the same as an ordinary muslim from any part of the
world. http://aaiil.org/text/acus/mainacus.shtml
I mean if an ordinary muslim can easily considers himself to be from a behrelvi sect so why cant a muslim consider
himself as a lahori ahmadi.
Due to the blizzard I had nothing better to do but to read the constitution and the
lahori ahamdi site and actually Lahori ahmadis have a much better way of explaining discrepencies left in Islam. For
instance the child-marriage of aisha (pbuh) is explained and refuted in a much more logical sense than maudidi or
brehlvi or whomever.
My question is why are Lahori Ahmadis bundled up with regular Ahmadis when the two groups have huge fundamental differeneces. Why does the constitution does not differentiate between the two (it shouldn’t differentiate period over religion but since it does)?
I have family who are Lahori… First you must understand the breakup of the group. When the Khilafat was passed on to the Sons of the Hazrat Maseeh Maood Rehmat Allah Elahe, one group objected to it (now known as the Lahori Group) and argued that Khilafat should not be a passing of the royal Throne to one’s own descendants. However, the First Khalifa of the Jammat (Hazrat Hakim Noor-ul-Deen Rehamt Allah Elahe) was not the son of Maseeh Maood. After his death, and at the choosing of the 2nd Khalifa (Hazrat Basheer-ul-Deen Mehmood – son of Maseeh Maood) the Jamat separated into two factions.
Lahoris believe that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was Maseeh Maood (promised Massiah) but was not a Prophet of God, whereas Qadiyani Group (known as Ahmadis) believe that he was a Zilli Prophet of God (a prophet with no new religion, but a Prophet to guide the follower of Islam).
I guess the reason why Lahoris are lump summed with regular Ahmadis (in the Constitution)is because they do believe Ghulam Ahamd to be the Promised Massiah.
^ thats interesting. so we have sects within sect. arent they removing "islamic" in the pakistani passports as well? so instead of "islamic repulic of pakistan" it will be only "republic of pakistan". i think its pretty sensible thing to do since there is so much conflict about what "islam" really is among muslims themselves in pakistan.
suroor_ca2 are they really removing that. WOW. Care to respond to my Democratic republic of Pakistan thread.
Madhanee. Is the promised Massiah called a Mutajid or something similar? Anyway according to my simple reasoning and according to the consitiution they just ask that if one believes in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be the last prophet and thats about it. so legally speaking Lahoris are not non-muslims since they don't believe in that clause.
Plus According to Maulanna Mohammad ALi and some of his writing s that I read over the weekend she states that Mirza Sahib himself never claimed the prophet hood and actually refuted that in public about being the messiah of any sort. I believe he considered himself to be a reformist. But going to the constitution I think they need to ammend it again so the constitution doesn't look idiotic.
Yeah Suroor, that’s the story of religions. When there are 2 followers of one faith, they will try to carve out separate corners for themselves, and “mine” will always be the “right” one. It’s the story of not just Islam, but all belief systems. Everyone tends to focus on a small bit of faith, and disregard the bigger picture. The purpose of religion was to unite people into believing in humanity and doing good deeds; but some people are more concerned about whether Jesus is dead or alive…as if Elvis is any less challenging.
Verizon… the difference between Lahori and Qadiyani group is not more than RabRi aali Kulfee vs. Ordinary Kulfee. Ahmadis being RubRee aali.
Yes, The Lahoris consider Mirza Sahib a Mujadid (Reformer) but we Ahmadis consider him to be Majadid as well as a Prophet of Islam.
I think the Constitution of Pakistan states that Mirza Sahib’s followers (whether they believe in him as Mujadid or Prophet) are not Muslims.
^^ I see the fine print. I still think it is silly to add a clause in a constitution of any country to differentiate between its constituents because of religion. I really feel bad for the minorities that they are subjected to state terrorism like this after educating my self on this clause. Shame on Pakistan. till they re-ammend this stupidity.
I have another question what benefit do Pakistanis get by adding a dumb clause like this in their not so dumb constitution?
I this think mirza ghulam ahmed guy was a good muslim in his early life, he often debated christian missionaries in punjab. But later mirza ghulam ahmed's head went crazy.
couple of years ago some guy in badshahi masjid in eid namaz stood up and went crazy and started saying that he was a prophet of something. THis stuff happens once in a while.
I am not here to offend any qadiani, but They are simply NOT muslim. But they should have equal rights in Pakistan as a non-muslim community. They should have the freedom to openly practice their non-muslim religion.
PBH: There are many things muslims do that are considered un-islamic or “non muslim”. Just because a community that has lived amongst us (prior to our ansectors converting to Islam) for centuries decides to practice a different offshoot of Islam(and thats what it is) doesn’t mean that we go and modify legal documents and limit their rights. Do you know how absurd it is to tout “freedom of speech” (hearing about pakistan lately)and yet disallow ones non-mulsim (because of religion they are a minority) citizens to say
Bhutto was a great leader, in fact the greatest democratic leader Pakistani nation ever had!
But one of the things he shouldn't have done was to amed the constitution to declare Qadiyanis non-Muslims (and thus giving Mullahs power to enjoy in the govt!)
Jinnah had made it clear SO MANY TIMES (including in his address to Pakistan's first constituent assembly) that STATE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGION OF ITS CITIZEN. YOU CAN BE HINDU, CHRISTIAN, PARSI, ETC THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUSINESS OF STATE.
And I believe removing the religion section from the passports is a way to go!
lolz....qadiyanis r supported from western powers so they can work against islam....
they r supported by NGO,s in pak to expand their false believes by buying people...qadiyanis people activities must be banned.....they r murtid and they should be deal strictly......they r nothing but group of people working against the interest of pak and islam...and qadiyanis have every rights in pak...
i know some qadiyanis and they dont have any problem in anything...
Its not silly at all when someone is basically changing the whole relegion and our beleive of last prophet. and if someone does that they shouldnt be Muslims. and why are they insisting that they are? sure its personal thing to beleive in something. why dont you just admit you beleive in something fundamentally different and be happy for being Ahmadi or Lahori!
consititution of Pakistan states that because its not a secular country, it was created for sole reason. its Muslim country and minorities are allowed to live freely and practise whatever they want.
I have many friends belong to christianity, ahmadi/lahori. I haven seen anything wrong happening to them just because of their relegion or faith. they are still good friends of mine. give me examples of state terrorism against minorities??? there may have some incedences based on personal enemity but there is no genocide or bad treatment of minorities.
“Shame on Pakistan” is not acceptable here mate, whats wrong with Islamic Pakistan? does the name harm you? just because what the people from so called west look down on you for being from Islamic Pakistan?
the name on Passport is still “Islamic republic of Pakistan” the current fuss which I think also wrong is about the relegion info on the first page of Passport.
the Mullah has nothing else to do so they are doing this. otherwise who require a relegion info in a passport , in Id card its ok.
sect only differs in some ways to perform or do relgious duties or way of life. Ahmadi/lahoris are sects of qadiyanis agree, but they are not sect of from mainstream islam.
so its sensible according to you the if some people made some confusion in creating sects etc or new relgion so let leave Islam altogether and declare Pakistan is not Islamic country???
Shia or Sunni - all beleive in one Allah and Mohammad(PBUH) as LAST prophet!!!
so they are sects of Islam!
when someone claim to be prophet of Islam then its not islam anymore!
for just being promised massiah( IMAM mehdi as we beleive)
ok if one point accepted mirza was a ture Massiah then why everything didnt happen he just came and gone and nothing changed.. e.g.,
I mean Muslims beleive if Imam Mehdi come Muslims will re counqer world(they will be under. and they will have fight againt Dajal (anti christ) and Prophet Jesus will also be back at that time.
Shak, I totally agree with you. Qadiyanis are Kafirs. If I were born into Muslim family (like you) I would have believed the same shyt. It’s what you are born into. Work on your writing yaar, it reads of someone with very little education.
guy1 and shak kills get a cue from prince charming. You both sound like complete idiots. I could not come up with a better adjective. (sorry mods) I did try hard and went through the whole thesaurus however, idiot is the closest word that described them.
I do not want to get into a religious discussion but why do Ahmadis care if mainstream Muslims do not consider them of the Islamic faith? I mean I agree with the fact that matters in regards to Ahmadis in Pakistan are overkill from the constitution to the passports (now being removed?), however it is more important for Ahmadis to just continue their beliefs without worrying about "perceptions."
I think this matter is highly politicized. We have Ismailis who are arguably off the mainstream path having no major issues due to the fact that the Aga Khan pumps billions into Pak. As a Sunni Muslim, I don't want to offend others but I simply believe in Prophet Muhammad first, last and always..there may be great scholars, teachers and others but there is only one chosen one.
here you go again, no personal attacks mate, did i brand you with any name? well it shows who is idiot or not. stick to discussion, when you dont have arguements dont be personal. so anyone who differs with your ideas is branded as idiot? get a life and keep prince charming cue for your personal use…
Madh.. this is truely my own opinions, and my family doesnt feed me with typical. and I do not beleive qadianis are KAfir’s they still beleive in One Allah. that make them beleivers. sorry if I have offended you or anyone.
I respect everyone’s faith.
RF Pakistanis remove the clauses from the constitution and I have no issues. It's not whether mainstream muslims consider them muslims or not it is more along the lines of having a ahmadi president or prime minister (pakistani consitutions limits that).
Shak Kills Maybe Idiot was a wrong word didnt mean it as a personal attack however re-reading my post after 24 hrs I see your point and I apologize.
Your #13 and #17 are a bit different. My point regarding Ahmadis /Lahoris is that they are gods creatures as well, they have lived amongst us even before our anscestors embraced Islam in the Indian Sub-continent (sorry RF :Dhad to rub that in). We are the same people just beliefs are different and that should'nt cause schizophrenic Muslims in Pakistan to go about changing their legal documents and create minorities. It's very medieval.
*RF Pakistanis remove the clauses from the constitution and I have no issues. It's not whether mainstream muslims consider them muslims or not it is more along the lines of having a ahmadi president or prime minister (pakistani consitutions limits that).
*
If the heavily Sunni Muslim Pakistanis vote in an Ahmadi, I have no issues. I care more about patriotism towards Pakistan in this regard. Niether am I insecure to think that Ahmadis are some type of threat to Pakistan.
till they re-ammend this stupidity.