isn’t it rape to have sex without consent? i have seen many girls(masharki) saying that how can a girl say “yes” for sex, and that men should do it anyway. isnt it disgusting? it may give man the feeling of being authorative and forceful. or that girls is not enjoying, depriving him,refusing him etc etc. can it have a negative effect on ego?
while if one doesnt refuse then guy may consifer her baysharm, bold etc etc.
so what is the right thing to do? refuse or not?
from health class "No, means No, and if a woman say no men should not proceed further. While, pakistani girls seem to have a different view. I remeber a dialouge from indian movie that if a woman does not refuse then she is not a woman.
why are women suppose to be reluctant and men or not in our society?? yes, men usually are horny then women expect them to be, but is it in nature or nurture?
Re: consent
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jhankar: *
No, means No, and if a woman say no men should not proceed further.
[/QUOTE]
The above is your answer.
without consent .. its rape.
if married, sex without consent is immoral but not rape ISLAMICALLY speaking... and is rape otherwise if u are more inclined towards western culture than the religion itself. And ALLAH is all supreme in ALL Matters and the Ultimate Judge.
Mullah Gadha, would you care to support your statement there, or is it your assumption here. maybe you could also define what you mean by rape. I think you are wrong.
Fraudia Pir bhai:) i think it depends on my definition of rape as i understand:)
i understand it as equivalent to "ZINA" unless i am wrong in translating it.. in that case you may be right but if I understood correctly, then I wont put a question mark to where ALLAH put a period.
gadhay
zina = adultery
rape is not the same as adultery.
you are confusing the 2 and thats why your statement is incorrect.
Yeah Shariah is isn't stupid ;)
chaltahai: stop making mockery of others religion... shame on you.
Fraudia: adultery = sex with someone else while u are married to someone else..
there is no such thing called marital rape' in islam. any sex that is out of wedlock is zina. and haram and thus there are different punishments in different scenarios - married get different punishment if have sex with the one they are not married to and get different if sex is done without being married.
I will be back with a detailed reply after i come from job:-)
Sorry gadha, that was in reference to the stupid divine laws in all religions that try to dictate more than simple spirituality.
Edit: See further below
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Found this on the net....
As my limited understanding of Shariah laws with regard to marriage is concerned, a husband does not have the right to inflict physical harm on his wife.
Sex without concent does lead to physical harm (i.e tissue tearage in the female genitalia), so a wife does have a valid grievance against her husband that she can take to a court.
[/QUOTE]
stop babbling would ya all....u dealing wiv extremely sensitive issue here for crying out loud, would you stop giving personal views, not that i don't agree wiv u Mad Scientist but some Quranic verses supporting your argument would be really helpful,
i managed to extract few if that helps
[5:5] …….. You shall maintain CHASTITY, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
24:30] Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes (and not stare at the women), and to maintain their CHASTITY. This is purer for them. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything they do.
[24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their CHASTITY.
[24:33] ……..You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
(some western articulate argue that it is virtually impossible to prove rape in Islam, and women always to blame in Islam)
There has been a misconception and confusion regarding rape and its relation to another sexual crime, adultery. The confusion connecting rape and adultery should not exist as both are two different crimes and their circumstances and punishments cannot be the same. They are not looked at them as the same nor given an equal treatment in Submission (Islam). The need for four witnesses in case of adultery when no other evidence exists does not apply in cases of rape where modern science allows the use of advanced techniques to identify the rapist with the highest accuracy. The victims of rape, if they notify the authority immediately, will have enough proofs to convict most, if not al,l the accused rapists, as the physical facts including semen, saliva, blood, hair, fibers, skin scraps, bite marks,.....etc. are so many and easy to identify to convict the rapist. There is no truth to the claimed rumor that the rape victim has to present four witnesses to prove the rape when there are so many other physical proofs. This requirement is needed only if a person who has no other proof accused an un-expected person of such a crime. In our modern society, no one will be convicted with no proof or any person can accuse any person at any time with no proof and gets away with it. Islam is justice, for both the victim and the accused. The least of the proofs is eyewitness, and God sees to it that the four witnesses (who do not have to be men) , will be a better guarantee against a deliberate plot to scheme an innocent person. The wrong application and/or understanding of the Quranic law related to rape in Submission (Islam) is but a reflection of the desertion of these so called "Islamic" countries" to the law of the Quran in favor for their man made laws, or corrupted religious laws originated from sources other than the Quran. Anti Islamic campaigners try to take advantage of these wrong application of the law and to slander Submission (Islam) in the eyes of the ignorant public who do not educate themselves about the true nature of Islam. (extract from article in Women in Islam by Sharif Khan)
your comments would be appreciated.
Very well then, some stronger evidence…
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=2965
The question asked is:
*Dear Respected Scholar,
I have a few questions about a very sensitive topic. I have been exploring the role of women in Islam as a non-Muslim.
One of the most important roles of a woman is to be a wife and to behave properly and to fulfill certain duties. One of the duties that I have been constantly observing is that of fulfilling the husband’s sexual needs.
I have found several references within essays, books, and the Qur’an that pertain to this principle. For example, in Surah 2, verse 223:
{Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will…}
I interpret this as the wife being the husband’s “property” and he may utilize it whenever he pleases.
I find this a bit disturbing, because if a woman is not feeling well or is “not in the mood,” does she still have to submit to her husband? Or, is the husband expected to respect his wife’s position and dismiss his desire?
Unfortunately, this reminds me too much of marital rape, which I have studied in a sociology class. Even though it may be a very controversial issue for any religion, I wonder, is marital rape not considered an offense in Islam?
I would very much appreciate your scholarly perspective and knowledge on this subject.*
The answer given is:
Salaam Bethany,
Thank you for your interesting question.
First the Qur’anic verse that you mentioned has a completely different interpretation than the one you thought of. It doesn’t mean any sense of sexual exploitation.
Actually, it was revealed on the occasion that some of the prophet’s companions asked him about how to approach their wives sexually. This was because their Jewish neighbors used to tell them that a sexual intercourse should only be made in one particular position.
The verse was then revealed to inform believers that they are free to approach their women in any position they like. Then the prophet (pbuh) added to its interpretation that one is free to have a sexual intercourse with his wife, in any position, as long as it is vaginal, for anal intercourse is prohibited in Islam.
It is clear that such permission aimed at adding more pleasure to both husband and wife. This is by avoiding the monotony of such a relationship.
As for “marital rape”, Islam teaches both husband and wife the understanding of having to minimize the times when they are reluctant to respond to their spouses’ sexual demand. Unless there are really serious reasons concerning, for example, health or mental difficulties, they should not refuse such a demand.
This is not because any side is a “property” of the other or because Islam approves what is called “marital rape”. On the contrary, this is because Islam prohibits adultery and marital infidelity.
This, in fact, is prohibited for both parties. Therefore, Islam urges both parties to be always welcoming to meet the other party’s sexual demands and needs. Both parties are also obliged to make sure that this affair has ended with full satisfaction for ones’ partner.
It seems you have read about this part, which focuses on the rule of submitting to the spouse as “obligatory” to women. This is actually the favorite issue propagated by anti-religion feminists!
Well, it seems you haven’t read about the Islamic teaching that also made it obligatory for husbands to offer sex to their wives. This is due to the fact that the woman might be shy or embarrassed to ask it for herself, every four days. According to Imam Ghazali and other scholars, this is even if the husband does not feel like doing it…
In addition, a ruler should not send soldiers in an army - even if it is wartime - for more than four months, just for this reason! Also, Ibn Magah reported that the prophet (pbuh) has commanded husbands not to start a sexual intercourse, unless they start by ‘flirting, talking and kissing the wife’ till she becomes ‘in the mood’ and capable of sharing the pleasure of these moments.
You need to know, dear Bethany, that the prophet (pbuh) warned husbands against what he called: “falling onto women like animals.”
He also drew men’s attention that women tend to reach orgasm, a short time after husbands do. Thus, a husband should wait till she is fully satisfied. We believe that this prescription of sexual relations in Islam is the furthest it can be from rape!
Simultaneously, Islam urges the Muslim woman that - however busy she may be - she should leave whatever is keeping her busy, if her husband asks her. Here, if the woman refuses to submit to her husband’s desire, for no serious reason, she would be exposed to God’s displeasure. Thus, Islam directs both parties and not men only to observe this rule.
In fact, the wisdom behind such elucidation in describing spouses’ sexual relations and the ideal way to reach full satisfaction - either in quantity or quality - was meant to close the door for any body to find an excuse to commit the major sin of adultery. It is a sin, which is not accepted in Islam under any circumstances.
I really appreciate your interest in Islam. Still, I advise you to read it from its original sources. These are now available through the Internet and many other ways. This is rather than discovering Islam through sources, which deliberately distort its beautiful and comprehensive message.
The message of Islam, dear Bethany, touches every aspect of people’s lives, even their sexual life! Some simply misinterpret this message by focusing on “choosing” specific Qura’nic verses or taking parts of the rulings, that serves their interpretations, and leaving the other parts.
Thank you and wish to hear from you again.
Well done Maddy, wicked job. :k: :k:
Jazak Allah maddy :k: That was informative and learning indeed.
maddy said it all:)
i need not to say more..
just one thing:
zina bil jabar = rape
zina bil raza = adultery
kaka pataka most of the verses (almostall) that u have posted r either irrelevant or mis-interpreted....
plz avoid such practice....
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Originally posted by armughal: *
**kaka pataka* most of the verses (almostall) that u have posted r either irrelevant or mis-interpreted....
plz avoid such practice....
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A R Mughal sahib, misinterpreted, irrelevant.....really....can u expand on that please.... looking forward to your detailed interpretation.
Chalthahai: You obviously don't know much about Islam (or are not interested in finding out)
To the rest, just my two pence, but marital rape is a crime in islam. Rape is rape.
While there isn't much scholarly wieghtage to what I am about to say but many of the interpretations were from male dominated societies. If the Islamic punishment for rape is broadened I am sure marital rapists would be punished the same way other rapists are.
A classic example is the case of the poor woman in Pakistan who's husband used to beat her whether she consented or not, and then rammed a rod into her.
There are countless other cases like that.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zakk: *
**If* the Islamic punishment for rape is broadened I am sure marital rapists would be punished the same way other rapists are.
[/QUOTE]
are u putting an 'IF' infront of ALLAH's command?
Your thoughts are quite impressive and seem to make sense; and I hope you will find me examples from Quran and Sunnah to support your argument:)