comments?

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Ironically, If a Blind person(since birth) says he knows what colors of FALL are and how it makes him feel, I will believe him.
Girl from Qurysh, Your faith is good, Amy's question is very nice too, but FAITH is not blind WE humans are. A joke in wetsern culture may be and has been taken ery offendedly once it was translated into eastern culture. MErely translations of things whether by a learned person or not doesnot make them authentic. The only reason bible is not authentic anymore is cos it was never written in the languages present in recent era. ARAimic has been long forgotten by local people of isreal and has become only a fancy language that is studied by scholars who try and i stress try tot ranslate things from that language.
Similarily an importan divine message as you believe from ALLAH, you expect me to believe CAN be translated 100% in its entirety?
Then my dear you are no different than that blind man.
As I said If I can't raslate a ere joke from one culture to another howo the world can I do that to such a divine book?

like a simple urdu statement,

roko mat janay do..verbatum transation...

roko= stop
mat= dont, NOT
janay do = let go

withwrong puctuations this simple statement has drastic effects. with punctuations two it saved someone's life.

roko! mat janay do(stop! don't let go)
roko mat! janay do(stop not! let go)

So I can't imagine and ant comprehend inmy simple mind that people since 1400 till now are unable to make any kind of changes in TRANSLATING the divine book. ARABIC text of QURAN may be and i repeat may still be preserved but translations of quran and interpretations are absolutely wrong. Cos if it werent for the translations and interpretations we would not have had so many SECTS. but one TRUE ISLAM.

I rest my case.

cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

22

What I posted is an authentic english translation of Quranic verses and is very clear about beating. This is not my idea nor is it my interpretaion of the Quran. Whenever a question is raised about Quran, it creates a lot of emotional turmoil which drowns the purpose of the question and leads the discussion to a dead end.

Now let's focus on what I posted and my two questions are very simple.

  1. Do muslim women accept beating as stated in these verse?
  2. If men are disloyal, what happens to them? Do they also get a beating and from whom? From their Mommy? LOL
23

Since Hadith is often quoted to justify certain actions in contradiction to Quran, here’s some more food for thought:

God treats men and women as spiritual equals., Quran 3:195 tells us :

"Their Lord responded to them: “I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER…”

Many of the Muslim countries who claim to follow Islam are treating women as a second class citizens, and some of these women accepted this situation thinking that is what Islam (Submission in English) is advocating. As mentioned previously, God, in the Quran made a complete spiritual equality between men and women, See 3:195.

Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran , and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books that put women on the same level with animals, monkeys , asses or dogs.

The total respect and rights guaranteed by God for the Muslim women can not be taken away by a lie written in another man-made book. While God made men and women spiritually equal as seen in 3:159 the traditional Muslims who prefer Hadith over Quran always remind the women of this alleged Hadith:

“Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective”. (Bukhary).

That is what Bukhary writes not what God says, not what the prophet who represents the message of God could have said, since this statement is totally against the Quran. Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as “naturally defective”. They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.

Hadithists see women as “morally defective”, conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of individuals jailed for murder, rape, child abuse, etc. are men. And hadithists claim that women are “religiously defective” but it is they (not God in the Quran) who forbid their daughters from praying and fasting during their menstrual periods and it is they (not God) who discourage the women from going to the mosque, even for Friday prayers.

Their problem is that they have taken the words of men instead of the words of God. After making it all but impossible for a woman to practice her religion for about 25% of her life (the amount of time most women have their periods), is it any wonder that hadithists claim that the majority of people in Hell are women!!!

However what God revealed in the Quran is very different. The spiritual equality between men and women is reiterated in 4:124, as follows:

“As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, t hey enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice”

and again in 16:97:

" Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."

and yet again in 40:40,

[40:40] Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.

I believe it is time to go back to the Quran, and believe God, before a day comes when the messenger will complain to God, that the Muslims deserted the Quran, 25:30

By L.S.

24

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
**What I posted is an authentic english translation of Quranic verses and is very clear about beating. This is not my idea nor is it my interpretaion of the Quran. Whenever a question is raised about Quran, it creates a lot of emotional turmoil which drowns the purpose of the question and leads the discussion to a dead end.

Now let's focus on what I posted and my two questions are very simple.

  1. Do muslim women accept beating as stated in these verse?
  2. If men are disloyal, what happens to them? Do they also get a beating and from whom? From their Mommy? LOL ** [/quote]

Amy,

You can stop with your childish behavior now.

You have been told many times now that the Qur'an does not stipulate beating. In the worst of the circumstance, a light tapping is allowed.

There is nothing to discuss.

You have already come up with you own interpretation of the quranic verse and unless you don't find someone who agrees with you, it is obvious that you will not let go of the issue.

Keep and open mind. This is the book of Allah (swt) and as much as you or others will try to find flaws in it, you will fail miserably.

25

Dear amy

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I have explained the context of the Qur’anic directive, that you have brought to light, in a previous reply. To simply dismiss my line of reasoning is not the same as refuting it. Thus I would kindly request you to explain what exactly, indeed if any, is the problem with the line of reasoning as presented by myself above.

I am, like yourself, in agreement with those who are of the opinion that no new element of faith can be added to the body of Islam on the basis merely of Hadith. Thus, like yourself, I am of the opinion that Hadith cannot constitute an independant source of the Islamic Shariah. I have not used any hadiths to supplement my opinion on this matter, as you can plainly see, but simply explained, in my opinion, what the correct context of the Qur’anic directive that you have so kindly provided, actually entails.

Rest assured, I eagerly await your reply and I promise, in all humbleness, to do my duty in keeping an open mind on this issue.

My fondest regards to you and those around you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited June 04, 2001).]

26

One thing we should remember when we talk about sensitive topics like this, is that...

When we talk about applying a rule, like light beating to your wife, this means that an ideal world, an ideal atmosphere in the light of Islam is created before we imply that rule.
If both of husband and wife have got the understanding of basics of Islam then we can talk about applying a rule like beating your wife, otherwise that action wouldn't have any support from Islam.
As a bad government hasn't got any understanding of Islam and they start killing people for doing something against Islam, this is not allowed in Islam at all. First that government has to be a muslim govt. itself then they have to create environment and then should punish people for doing something wrong.
Islam allows a man to keep four wives at a time but first that man has to create ideal environment, house, food, other facilities everything same as any of his other wives have got. If he doesn't take care of all these then his marriages wouldn't have any support from Islam, and he will be punished for that.
So to qualify upto that status a husband has to fulfill so many requirements. And in today's world if somebody fulfills all those requirements then he would be a perfect muslim and it would be very rare that they face any problem like this, but if they do, they will go for other options than beating their wives.
If both husband and wife are not following Islam then, husband shouldn't use Islam and wife shouldn't complain about Islam

27

Mr. Partypooper:

Thank you very much for keeping the debate civil on sensitive issue of quran. Your responses are trying to justify that Quran did not imply beating of the wife. You have gone at great lengths to expalin that. But the meaning of that Ayat is very simple and straight forward. I wasn't looking for any explanation of the meaning, far from it. If you would like to debate the issue than you should address the two questions I posed in my previous post.

28

Dear amy

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

The meaning of the Ayah, which you have referred to, is qualified by a specific context, which in turn, is made quite clear by the usage of specific linguistic terms within it. With due respect, in my opinion, I would not agree with the contention that the verse, on the face of it, is “simple and straightforward”. I quite understand your opinion on this issue, unfortunately however, I do not hold it to be correct.

Let us begin by taking a look at two of the important words of the related verse:

  • The first word is “qawwa’m `ala’”. The Arabic-English dictionary, “Al-Mawrid” describes it as: “caretaker, custodian, guardian, curator, keeper, supervisor, superintendent”.

  • The second word is “Nushooz”. It has been described by “Al-Mawrid” as: “recalcitrance, disobedience, violation of marital duties (on the part of the wife)”. In my opinion, because the word “Nushooz” has been used in the Qur’an, with reference to both the man and the woman, therefore the qualification “on the part of the wife” is not called for. Nushooz, actually means “recalcitrance”. When it is used with reference to a relationship or a position or an interaction, it implies an unconditional refusal to accept the position of the other relation, or another position or another party to the interaction. Thus, the Arabic word “Nushooz” does not mean a simple case of disobedience, it actually implies refusal to submit to an authority. Keeping this in view, obviously, a woman’s difference with her husband in a particular opinion or an argument between a husband and a wife on any issue are not cases of “Nushooz”.

In my opinion, the related verse translates as follows:

  • “Men are responsible for their women because Allah has made the one superior to the other in different spheres and because they spend of their wealth. Therefore, righteous women are obedient and guard secrets as Allah has also guarded secrets. As for those from whom you fear refusal to accept the position [of the man], admonish them and [if this does not effect their behavior then] leave them alone on their beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them.” (Al-Nisa’ 4: 34)

Here a few words of clarifciation may be in order:

I had stated previously that the basic stress in these verses of the Qur’an is to hinder a person from using force in correcting a domestic problem situation. The Qur’an, it should be observed, has not merely stated that in case a wife is persistent in disrupting the peace and tranquility of a household, her husband should beat her to bring her in line; on the contrary, the Qur’an has actually hindered the man from using force for correcting such a situation by directing him to resort to admonition. Then again, if continual and sincere admonitions of the man seem to be falling on deaf ears, even then the man cannot use force for correcting the situation. The Qur’an has once again hindered the person from using force, by directing him to show his disapproval of the wife’s behavior by resorting to restraint in his conjugal relations with his wife. This restraint, once again, is in the hope to make the wife realize her mistakes.

It is important to keep in mind that it is not a beating of revenge or a beating of an enemy that we discuss here, it is nothing more than a corrective action. It is a beating of a well wishing head of a family. It is just like a corrective action taken by a father or a mother against his/her son. Obviously, when a father takes a corrective action against his son, he has absolutely no intentions of seriously harming him. In the same way, if a husband is forced to take such an action against his wife, it must not be a beating of a gangster. Furthermore, I have not come across any tradition or narrative (hadith) that narrates such an event where the Prophet (pbuh) hit any of his spouses.

I don’t expect you to agree with my interpretation of the referred verse and nor do I require of you to do so, all that I intend is to show you that the referred verse does not support your contention (i.e. the Qur’an advocates the beating of wives). I think even you will agree with that.

Therefore, the questions that you have raised, do not really arise in the first place.

That is not to say, however, that I’m not wrong.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

My fondest regards to you and those around you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited June 05, 2001).]

29

Amy

Wasir is absolutely right regarding implying any rule of islam.

Lets say the interpretation of quran does leads to beating of disobedient women.

NOw then as WASIR said, and tat must end your query for your two questions.

ONLY in and ideal ISlamic state that rule is allowed, but if the idealistic islamic laws are obeyed we woouldnt need beatings or abusing anyone. In a perfect ISlamic world there won't be any negativity.

I think wasir has answered for all the islamic arguments thus far posted on this religion discussions.

cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

30

Will reply later, connection is screwd up.

[This message has been edited by amy (edited June 05, 2001).]

31

beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them." (Al-Nisa’ 4: 34)

I don't expect you to agree with my interpretation of the referred verse and nor do I require of you to do so, all that I intend is to show you that the referred verse does not support your contention (i.e. the Qur'an advocates the beating of wives). I think even you will agree with that.

Mr. Partypooper:

Your own translation says: "Beat Them" Now which part of that don't you understand?

Then after a lengthy and irrelevant explanation, you say, " Quran does not advocate beating".

In my second post on this subject where I criticized hadith, I also gave some references where Quran does say that women and men are equal. So there is a dichotomy in Quran or may be we simply don't know what God really meant. I certainly don't, but from your explanations it seems to me that you perhaps know what God intended for us to understand and interpret.

My humble suggestion would be to face it as it is and try not to dig too much into it. It says what it says and that's quite clear, now if you wanna invent something new out of it, good luck.

32

If you recall, I had presented the linguistic basis for the circumstances surrounding such a problem. I have qualified what the usage of the word “beating” actually entails. According to my understanding, the context of the verse is severely restricted:

[list=1]
[li]Firstly, this right should only be resorted to, if the wife begins to adopt a rebellious attitude and starts to challenge the authority of her husband as the head of the family. As I had stated earlier, the Qur’an terms this attitude as nushuz. It says that when a husband fears such an attitude from his wife which threatens to disrupt the whole family set-up should he adopt this procedure. It should be noted that the Qur’an has not used the word ‘disobedience’. Any difference of opinion or altercation is not to be resolved by this procedure. Disagreements and disputes must be settled mutually. It is only when the wife stands up against the authority of her husband should this procedure be employed. Anything less than this does not pertain to this procedure of admonishment. [/li]
[li]Secondly, the Qur’an has laid down a complete procedure which must necessarily be followed in this regard. It says: [/li]
[ul]
[li]“As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them [first] and [next] refuse to share their beds and [last] beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. (4:34)”[/li][/ul]

It is clear that a good time should elapse in each of the stages mentioned in the verse. The husband should first of all admonish his wife and convince her to give up her defiant behaviour. He should exercise all the patience he can muster to urge and beseech her to change her stance. If after repeated pleas and continuous admonition in a considerable span of time, the wife continues to persist in her rebellious attitude, he has the authority to go on to the second stage by avoiding marital contact with her. This detachment, it is clear, is a form of reproval, and a very strong appeal to the wife to correct herself. Again, this attitude should continue for a substantial period of time so that the point is driven home. It is highly unlikely that most wives would persist in their arrogance after these two initial stages. In all probability, patience, forbearance, and restraint would have conquered their hearts. However, even after this stage, if a wife refuses to accept the authority of her husband, the husband has the right to finally resort to gentle physical affliction.
[/list=a]

I stand by my comments. I see no such contradiction. To dismiss my explanation simply on the grounds that it is “lengthy and irrelevant” does not constitute a valid refutation of my understanding, at least in my eyes.

That is for you to decide.

Please rest assured that I am never offended by any suggestions.

I find your stipulations on the topic of “beating wives” quite interesting. However, I am afraid, that my study and analysis of the issue has led me to an opinion, which is slightly different from yours.

I do wish you all the best in your intellectual endeavors. My fondest regards to you and those around you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited June 05, 2001).]

33

amy......I think you didn't read my last post, please read it again I think you should get the answer of your question.
There is no point arguing on that Quran has or hasn't ordered this, Quran has ordered this but when....why...and where, read my last post.

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
**beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them." (Al-Nisa’ 4: 34)

I don't expect you to agree with my interpretation of the referred verse and nor do I require of you to do so, all that I intend is to show you that the referred verse does not support your contention (i.e. the Qur'an advocates the beating of wives). I think even you will agree with that.

Mr. Partypooper:

Your own translation says: "Beat Them" Now which part of that don't you understand?

Then after a lengthy and irrelevant explanation, you say, " Quran does not advocate beating".

In my second post on this subject where I criticized hadith, I also gave some references where Quran does say that women and men are equal. So there is a dichotomy in Quran or may be we simply don't know what God really meant. I certainly don't, but from your explanations it seems to me that you perhaps know what God intended for us to understand and interpret.

My humble suggestion would be to face it as it is and try not to dig too much into it. It says what it says and that's quite clear, now if you wanna invent something new out of it, good luck.
**
[/quote]

34

Nice try, every one and good luck with wife beating in the name of God.

35

Mr. Partypooper:

The keyword for your explanation of the meaning of this ayat is "irrelevent". The meaning of this ayat is very clear to me and as I stated several times before, I do not accept any human being capable of explaining God's intention in quranic verses.

You have tried to explain the meaning. You have acknowledged that " wife beating" does exist in the meaning of this ayat. Yet you conclude that God didn't mean it that way. Well, God must be drunk at that time or may be you had a special communication with Him.

My questions are:

Do muslim women accept wife beating as said in this ayat?

What happens to men when they are disloyal etc. ?

36

amy

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Last time I asked God about this verse, He told me to go check the appropriate dictionary. It is simple as that.

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

37

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
** I do not accept any human being capable of explaining God's intention in quranic verses. **
[/quote]

If in your eyes, no one is capable of explaining the intent of the verses of the Qu'ran, then is that also preceded (in your eyes), by no human, being capable of understanding the verses of the Qu'ran?

38

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
** If in your eyes, no one is capable of explaining the intent of the verses of the Qu'ran, then is that also preceded (in your eyes), by no human, being capable of understanding the verses of the Qu'ran?

**
[/quote]

Understanding and explaining are two different things. Understand the verses as they are but don't try to inject personnal hypothesis as to what the intention of God is. That becomes contaminated explanation and tries to establish that a particular individual is more knowledgable than God himself or that there more than one interpretations of a particular ayat. I hope that answers your question.

Punjabi Kurhi

39

Dear amy

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I have not proposed any methods in my presentation. I have only elaborated my understanding of the text of the Quran. In this elaboration, I have also tried to explain the linguistic and logical basis for my interpretation. I have not injected any personal opinions anywhere. I have given my understanding of the concerned verses and I have also given reasons for my interpretation. For me, the text of the Qur’an is more than sufficient than any need to add personal “conjectures”. I really think it would have been more befitting for you to point out what was wrong with my interpretation, rather than ascribe and express doubts upon my motives.

Bottom line: You have equated “advocacy” of a practice with the “allowance” of a practice i.e. namely the gentle physical admonishment which takes place only in a severely restricted context.

In my view, your interpretation of the Qur’an is without any basis whatsoever, whether logical, linguistic or otherwise.

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

40

That’s exactly what I mean, Your View, that’s all there is to it. In my view totally baseless conclusion, injection of personnal interpretation or stolen interpretation ( who knows ), misinterpretation of the meaning of the words. In my experience, if the explanation is accurate, it does not require lengthy preface and more than one meaning.

I could have helped you with the explanation of this ayat. Actually there is a built in mechanism in this ayat for a cooling off period and a true muslim perhaps will not reach the stage of beating but beating it is, that cannot be changed, no matter how many circles you complete. Also you are dodging the quetion of husbands. What happens to cheating husbands. Who beats them?

Not the End

Punjabi Kurhi