Come the Revolution / Do People believe everything they read? (merged)

Boy does this part hit the Guppistan nail on the head:

**People here, particularly the chattering classes who watch the Arab satellite channels, are so much better misinformed than you think. The Arab media generally tells them what they want to hear and shows them what they want to see. There is a narrative that is deeply embedded, and no amount of embedded reporting from the other side will change it. **

Come the Revolution
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

AIRO

To read the Arab press is to think that the entire Arab world is enraged with the U.S. invasion of Iraq, and to some extent that’s true. But here’s what you don’t read: underneath the rage, there is also a grudging, skeptical curiosity — a curiosity about whether the Americans will actually do what they claim and build a new, more liberal Iraq.

While they may not be able to describe it, many Arabs intuit that this U.S. invasion of Iraq is something they’ve never seen before — the revolutionary side of U.S. power. Let me explain: for Arabs, American culture has always been revolutionary — from blue jeans to “Baywatch” — but American power, since the cold war, has only been used to preserve the status quo here, keeping in place friendly Arab kings and autocrats.

Even after the cold war ended and America supported, and celebrated, the flowering of democracy from Eastern Europe to Latin America, the Arab world was excluded. In this neighborhood, because of America’s desire for steady oil supplies and a safe Israel, America continued to support the status quo and any Arab government that preserved it. Indeed, Gulf War I simply sought to drive Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait to restore the Kuwaiti monarchy and the flow of oil. Once that was done, Saddam was left alone.

And that is why Gulf War II is such a shock to the Arab system, on a par with Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt or the Six-Day War. But different people are shocked in different ways.

To begin with, there is the shock of Arab liberals, still a tiny minority, who can’t believe that America has finally used its revolutionary power in the Arab world. They are desperate for America to succeed because they think Iraq is too big to ignore, and therefore a real election there would shake the whole Arab region.

Second is the shock of those Arabs in the silent majority. They recognize this is the revolutionary side of U.S. power, but they see it through their own narrative, which says the U.S. is upsetting the status quo not to lift the Arab world up, but rather to put it down so it will submit to whatever America and Israel demand. That’s the dominant theme in the Arab media: this war is simply another version of colonialism and imperialism. Al Jazeera uses the same terms for U.S. actions in Iraq as it does for Israeli actions in the West Bank — Iraq is under U.S. “occupation,” and Iraqis killed are “martyrs.”

As Raymond Stock, a longtime Cairo resident and the biographer of the novelist Naguib Mahfouz, remarked, “People here, particularly the chattering classes who watch the Arab satellite channels, are so much better misinformed than you think. The Arab media generally tells them what they want to hear and shows them what they want to see. There is a narrative that is deeply embedded, and no amount of embedded reporting from the other side will change it. Only a different Iraq can do that.”

But there is a third school: Egyptian officials, who are instinctively pro-American but are shocked that the Bush team would use its revolutionary power to try to remake Iraq. Egyptian officials view this as a fool’s errand because they view Iraq as a congenitally divided, tribal country that can be ruled only by an iron fist.

Whose view will be redeemed depends on how Iraq plays out, but, trust me, everyone’s watching. I spent this afternoon with the American studies class at Cairo University. The professor, Mohamed Kamel, summed up the mood: “In 1975, Richard Nixon came to Egypt and the government turned out huge crowds. Some Americans made fun of Nixon for this, and Nixon defended himself by saying, `You can force people to go out and welcome a foreign leader, but you can’t force them to smile.’ Maybe the Iraqis will eventually stop resisting you. But that will not make this war legitimate. What the U.S. needs to do is make the Iraqis smile. If you do that, people will consider this a success.”

There is a lot riding on that smile, Mr. Kamel added, because this is the first “Arab-American war.” This is not about Arabs and Israelis. This is about America getting inside the Arab world — not just with its power or culture, but with its ideals. It is a war for what America stands for. “If it backfires,” Mr. Kamel concluded, “if you don’t deliver, it will really have a big impact. People will not just say your policies are bad, but that your ideas are a fake, you don’t really believe them or you don’t know how to implement them.”

In short, we need to finish the peace better than we started the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/opinion/02FRIE.html

Re: Come the Revolution

Replace Arab with american and the statment will still remain true… OTH, I think that Arab media has reported the facts about this war far more correctly than the western media

:rolleyes:

Re: Come the Revolution

*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Boy does this part hit the Guppistan nail on the head:

*People here, particularly the chattering classes who watch the Arab satellite channels, are so much better misinformed than you think. The Arab media generally tells them what they want to hear and shows them what they want to see. There is a narrative that is deeply embedded, and no amount of embedded reporting from the other side will change it. *

Is there much of a difference between al jazeera or Fox or CNN in terms of bias? :) I think all people, arabs and americans included should see other viewpoints, try european press, asian press..

anyone being content with just one perspective is getting only a fraction of the picture..or perspective :)

Re: Re: Come the Revolution

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Boy does this part hit the Guppistan nail on the head:

*People here, particularly the chattering classes who watch the Arab satellite channels, are so much better misinformed than you think. The Arab media generally tells them what they want to hear and shows them what they want to see. There is a narrative that is deeply embedded, and no amount of embedded reporting from the other side will change it. *

Is there much of a difference between al jazeera or Fox or CNN in terms of bias? :) I think all people, arabs and americans included should see other viewpoints, try european press, asian press..

anyone being content with just one perspective is getting only a fraction of the picture..or perspective :)
[/QUOTE]

I agree.

Re: Re: Come the Revolution

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Boy does this part hit the Guppistan nail on the head:

*People here, particularly the chattering classes who watch the Arab satellite channels, are so much better misinformed than you think. The Arab media generally tells them what they want to hear and shows them what they want to see. There is a narrative that is deeply embedded, and no amount of embedded reporting from the other side will change it. *

Is there much of a difference between al jazeera or Fox or CNN in terms of bias? :) I think all people, arabs and americans included should see other viewpoints, try european press, asian press..

anyone being content with just one perspective is getting only a fraction of the picture..or perspective :)
[/QUOTE]

Its sad to see that ppl here claim al jazeera to be "biased". YOu ppl didnt quite figure it out that al jazeera is nothing else than doing its work in the oppsite way and that is to show and prove to the public how biased CNN and FOX really are.
If al jazeera wouldn't have existed in this war, the war would have been over dayz back!
Remember that guyz!
Saddam would have been imprisoned or dead, Kurdistan a recognized state and all arabs and muslims been american citizens and lovers of Bush.
Got my point?!

Ali-R

There is a difference is having a bias, and being biased. Point being even if somoene is not workign on an agenda or following some party line, they will present it from their perspective.

same situation viewed by several different sets of eyes can be described differently based on the perspective of the viewer, therefore the information, even with the best intents would not be without bias. as a situation grows more complex, you have a more complex mix of viewpoints and perspectives affecting what is being reported and how.

Add to it news outlets that have a specific tilt to their reporting and the opnion or perspective overshadows the actual situation.

That is why its best to look at several sources, biased, unbiased, close to the situation (i.e. of the countries involved or their freinds) and those who are not involved..supporters and oppossers not involved in the war.

just makes sense to do that dunn it?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Ali-R

There is a difference is having a bias, and being biased. Point being even if somoene is not workign on an agenda or following some party line, they will present it from their perspective.

same situation viewed by several different sets of eyes can be described differently based on the perspective of the viewer, therefore the information, even with the best intents would not be without bias. as a situation grows more complex, you have a more complex mix of viewpoints and perspectives affecting what is being reported and how.

Add to it news outlets that have a specific tilt to their reporting and the opnion or perspective overshadows the actual situation.

That is why its best to look at several sources, biased, unbiased, close to the situation (i.e. of the countries involved or their freinds) and those who are not involved..supporters and oppossers not involved in the war.

just makes sense to do that dunn it?
[/QUOTE]

That is just beautiful Fraudia. It is almost poetic. I was brought to tears reading it. It's like we had a transcendental vulcan mind-meld and we basked together in the glow and warmth of total knowledge and awareness. Bless you, my friend.

Yeah but gents there's no denying the moral right in this situation. No matter how you dress a pig up it's still smells right?

Innocents are getting a good seeing to, both regimes are intact. There's only so many ways you can report news like that.

myvoice take your coupling some other place.

Not until I finish my smoke. :smokin:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Ali-R

There is a difference is having a bias, and being biased. Point being even if somoene is not workign on an agenda or following some party line, they will present it from their perspective.

same situation viewed by several different sets of eyes can be described differently based on the perspective of the viewer, therefore the information, even with the best intents would not be without bias. as a situation grows more complex, you have a more complex mix of viewpoints and perspectives affecting what is being reported and how.

Add to it news outlets that have a specific tilt to their reporting and the opnion or perspective overshadows the actual situation.

That is why its best to look at several sources, biased, unbiased, close to the situation (i.e. of the countries involved or their freinds) and those who are not involved..supporters and oppossers not involved in the war.

just makes sense to do that dunn it?
[/QUOTE]

With all respects you didnt get my point did you?
I was not refering to that Al Jazeera is biased or having biased reports on IRAQ. The point is how can you stop or differ between a report being biased or not. Be it CNN or Al jazeera.
The problem with most of the countries or states of America is that there is no other available source rather than CNN and AL Jazeera covering the most of IRAQ War.
We here in Europe can rely on more the Austria and German channels and their reporters in the crises area.
But as you said....read about one issue on many news media and you will get the truth. Even if some issues and news given are not that clear to interpret.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
...read about one issue on many news media and you will get the truth. Even if some issues and news given are not that clear to interpret.
[/QUOTE]
There are more news outlets, TV news stations and newspapers in the US than anywhere else in the world. Not to mention the proliferation of the internet in the US that allows access to any news source in the world. CNN is not the sole source of news for Americans.

Do People believe everything they read?

I wonder if they do? From what I have seen for the most part..I think they might.

What happend during the that part of school that taught one to question? And rationality and reason? Or isn't it taught anymore? What of the golden rule?

Do schools just teach obedience these days? And prejudice? Instead of good old fashioned reason and rationality?

Don't they teach people how to think for themselfs anymore?

I think you missed the spellink klass like me.

AAG,

Who is this directed at? Maybe you could be the first to answer, are you a free-thinker? Or is it easier to have opinions made for you and pictures painted to suit your taste.

I was always taught to call a spade a spade, but never shown how to dig a grave were you?

<~~ A great Spellnick I am not.

But just wondering. Not directed at anyone in particular, cept the ones that disagree with me … :kiss:

Seriously. I do think a great many people believe what they see in newspapers, instead of weighing facts against evidence, or vice-versa. Or determining opinion verses fact. Or ideals verses commentary verses fact. Or bias thinking verses fact or vice-versa. Or learned bias’ against objective thinking?

And no, never shown how to dig a grave, but have many times.

Seminole, but these news outlets are aligned with a few major news outlets. aside from my local news..the local news channels gets all the nationala nd world news from its big brother, fox, or nbc, or cbs etc.

As we speak there are discussions going on about outlets sych as clear channel which run god knows how many radio stations, same goes for places run by infinity broadcasting.

So enlighten me AAG what's the grand plan? Are the good old troops liberating, decimating, eviscerating or cogitating about subjugating?

...and how did you form your opinion about the above?

Originally posted by Ali_R: *
**The problem with most of the countries or states of America is that there is no other available source rather than CNN and AL Jazeera covering the most of IRAQ War. *

ali, its a question of where there is a will there is a way. I went to Knsas for my undergrad, I mean pick a state which is in the middle of nowhere and u have kansas..but people subscribed to newspapers and magazines from their country.

Its just a question of TV news, and radio since most ppl dont have short wave radios. but there is the internet, people who want to see a diff perspective will seek it out.

Those who dont want a diff perspective will not go for it, even if it is available on their TV. I know ppl who will never watch CNN and only watch Fox, and vice versa. As much as I cant stand fox, i watch it off and on to see what kinda BS is being fed to the lowest common denominator.

its not particular to US. I know jasarat and takbeer readers in pakistan who will not only not seek out any other source, but will outright reject anything that comes from other news sources.

the question is this..do you want to be exposed to various viewpoints and news sources to get the full picture, or do you want to stick to the news source which supports your own biases and viewpoints? Thats where the problem occurs..people dont seek out other news sources because they stick to the one which mirrors their viewpoints.

*But as you said....read about one issue on many news media and you will get the truth. Even if some issues and news given are not that clear to interpret. *

ya mon, so i did get to what you were saying.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

It's like we had a transcendental vulcan mind-meld and we basked together in the glow and warmth of total knowledge and awareness.

[/QUOTE]

damn it now you know my credit card numbers..and that I did inhale :(

AAG. Wht difference does it make whether one questions or not? Aren't the facts laid bare in front of your eyes? Some of us can't afford to go to Iraq (and believe me, it is not because of financial reasons), so our only resolve is to read what newspapers and TV has to offer. The golden rule is that NYTimes covers everything that's "fit to print". There is a lot of garbage around, so be a little picky about what you read/watch. You can, by all means, question the morality of stands that people have taken, but how can you question the events?? Can you question that War is not happening?

Now Thap,

If I told you that, it would only be my own opinion. :smack:

Love that old Rem song..