attacking religion is never a solution to any of the problems!! it breeds even more problems instead!!!!
Thank you ghalib.
I'd have to agree...there is no one thing (religion, parents, Internet, guns, etc.) that is solely the cause for the events.
By choosing one...we ignore and miss all the other factors.
[This message has been edited by kashmirigirl (edited April 24, 1999).]
I just come here to take care of ghalib and jackhandy..so I will address their points.
- "Hate to be a preacher here, but I just want to remind folks here that muslim children in Kosovo have been going through this sort of carnage for the past 12 months."
No, your problem here is not that you are being a preacher. Here, you are just bringing in an utterly irrelevant point. Reason behind that is your inability to write anything unless it contains one of the following:
a) Islam, and how beautiful it is.
b) How Muslims are being victimized by everyone.
c) How the West is bad and out to get the Muslims all over the world.
The issue that was raised here was not the victimization of children (which is horrible and tragic in and of itself) but what caused two adolescents to go on this killing rampage. It has absolutely nothing to do with Kosovo.
The carnage in Kosovo is far more horrific. No one is ignoring that. While we still don't completely understand the factors that caused these two kids to kill 15 people, the sentiment behind the slaughter of Kosovars is not new at all. It is ethnic hatred that has been given a religious spin. A group of people has been dehumanized by the state propaganda machine to make everyone think that en masse butchering of Kosovars is okay. Sadly, this is nothing new yet it keeps happening. Jews in Europe, Arabs uprooted by Israeli army in '48, Bengalis in '71....there are many other examples. Even sadder is the double standard employed by proponents of certain ideologies. While they cry foul over one instance of genocide, they acquiesce, applaud or deny the occurrence of others.
- attacking religion is never a solution to any of the problems!! it breeds even more problems instead!!!!
First of all, attacking religion in and of itself is not a complete solution to any problem. We agree. But that doesn't mean that religion does not cause, or perpetuate evils. Besides the specific problems that strict adherence to some religions would cause, religion always serves as a convenient vehicle to purvey evil. Why? Because religion is anti-reason. When I say something is religious, I immediately take away the possibility of critical reason. As long as it's religious, it's fine. The underlying evil is the acceptance of absolute, universal authority of something considered beyond debate and criticism. And this spirit of religion - as evident in Stalinist Marxism as it is in Islam or Christianity - IS the root of many many evils and should be attacked.
MNI Has Spoken The Truth.
Stud
you can blame christianity for a lot of wrong doings but not this one becuz the ppl. were not christians they followed the GOthis beliefs and wayz of life and also the nazzi ways of life which have nothing to do with christianity.
It has everything to do with Christianity.
A relegion that washes away the sins of man, freeing them from all accountability. A relegion that speaks of Turning the other Cheek and yet condemns the non-Christians to eternal Hell.
These kids were not poor deprived souls. The collective failiure of their relegion, Church, Community and family failed to inspire feelings of human compassion in these Satanic Delinquints.
When a Relegion has so many loop holes, and so much hypocrasy it breeds a sick Nation. No relegion is more deseased than the Christian Faith.
Stud
First and foremost it is a part of american culture, each man has the right to bear arms as is not the case here in England, i myself have never seen a gun. The opinions of American culture in England are that you are all mad! On a serious note it seems that there is a dominantly harsh peer culture which seems in the denver case to have triggered off the killings. Access to the internet probably aggravated the situation but would not have prevented it, the education system in america is different and creates various groups (popular/unpopular) within schools leading to bullying and torment (read www.denverpost.com). There are groups within schools in England but these are controlled and groups do interact with each other on a freindly level. Also more importantly parents should be aware of the movements of their children as they have a responsibilty to ensure their well being but this also extends to the well being of others that come in to contact with their children.
Its pathetic, and sad, that despite of our massive intellect , we still havnt been able to resolve the illogical, historically useless, and indeed destructive phenomenon of riligion...
Its inertia shows our deep seated need for it....and its the same need that colors our reasoning , and its objective understanding.
Our fear of uncontrolables ( death being most powerful), necessitates that we create a God , who is on our side, and devise ways to keep her happy....
Our sense of inadequacy , makes it imperative that we belong to a cult that washes away the guilt...unfortunately in the process , anyone who doesnt belong to the cult gets to be the bad guy , and we can wash away 'badness" by slaying them...( this also serves to relieve our innate aggressive impulses)
Our inability to understand the complex world, ( how many here understand , even gravity) makes it an easy alternative , for ansewrs....
Our limited methods of analysis , cause and effect , being a principle of it,,creates a pseudo logical basis...
I am not saying if religion is , true or not , if it is good or bad,,its not my place , and I dont have the brains to pass that judgement......All I am saying is that there are many reasons why we will gravitate to such an idea for misunderstood reasons...all I am saying is that such a topic is beyond my grasp , and that of others with similar intellect....
Why is it so hard to say ..."I DONT KNOW"...
"I dont have the answers , but I am striving to find them...." "All I owe to the phenomenon of creation is , to be true to myself"
What God will fault the person , who in the day of judgement , stands before her and says.." You created me , with the body that took me places, that had its needs, and a mind that could think...You created a design , in which it took millions of years of evolution to come to me, and my finest asset was my brain...I tried to use that brain , as best as I could....The greatest ability , that my brain had was the capacity to reason....I stayed truthful to that , for dear God , it would have been a sin and mockery , if I hadnt understood its limitations....It didnt take me to you in my limited life time, but with each passing moment , I came closer.....Maybe that is all you intended for me.."
Its a very passionate topic for me..and I can go on and on and on...but have to stop at this time..
I would like to share , a Quote , by Rabindara Nath Tagore, which to me sums up the true relationship between the creator and creation....
" when I work he respects me...but when I sing he loves me"
Maybe more at another time..
( moderator , I wasnt sure if this was better suited for religion forum or here... but sinse it was related to the topic, and sinse i wasnt discussing any particular religion , but the place of this phenomenon, in life in general..Iposted it here)
[This message has been edited by Nova (edited April 25, 1999).]
Discussing the possible motives of the events in Colorado, religion being one of the them, is acceptable….just don’t make it the only issue here.
Nova
So I guess you’re back to being an atheist? You can answer me in religion.
" So I guess you are back to being an athiest?"
As much as I hate to disagree with nice ladies, I think here, I would have to :)
I never was , am not , and hopefully never will be an athiest...
I just want to wash away the dust gathered by years of malhandling of this phenomenon( The questions and the reasons that initiated and propagated them are still there)...And at this point it means a major clarification of concepts..
I didnt think , I should start a whole new thread to respond to your query,,,After all, not too many people would be as interested in my personal opinion ... :)
[This message has been edited by Nova (edited April 25, 1999).]
The bottom line is:
GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!
Nova,
I am very interested. Kindly define for me your spiritual state. Who is your God? What is your Gut Instinct Regarding Relegion?
Stud
Well...well....the maha-aflatoon returns-and for yours truly??!!
Once again, MNI puts on the veneer of this mystified eloquent, answers-for-all-the-problems, personality and offers his ass-esment on what I have written. But tell me one thing mister, when everything is said and done, and you find yourself not going anywhere with your ass-umptions, will you take off the veneer and resort to name callings again?
Anyways....here we go...
"Here, you are just bringing in an utterly irrelevant point. Reason behind that is your inability to write anything unless it contains one of the following:
a) Islam, and how beautiful it is.
b) How Muslims are being victimized by everyone.
c) How the West is bad and out to get the Muslims all over the world."
I thought we agreed from your last posting that I will go on to think Islam is great and you'll go about your merry ways... why are you bringing the religion card into a debate with ME again?? You lack the depth and the patience for such conversation.
Nevertheless, Its this practice of singling out one behavior from the rest which has doomed the muslims. In your case, you have "salvaged" yourself by distancing from religion and have found refuge in condemning everything religion has to offer, be it islam or chirsitinaity or judaism. For someone like me, who strongly believes that religion is a part of life, its not that easy. I seek my answers from religion and have never been disappointed with he results.
It is this reason which conflicts with your ass-umtions and therefore triggers a debate. You, sir, fail to see where I am coming from and therefore pass judgements based on your understanding of the problems. To which, I nolonger have counterargument cause we're not on the same wavelength.
Now about how muslims are being victimized: Muslims are being persecuted all over the world by non-muslims and I blame muslims more than I blame non-muslims.
Now about blaming west for our plight: west is doing what every other sould in this world is doing: self preservation. Islamic is a threat to the existing world and west likes to contain this threat as much possible. Does that make them evil? NO!! They're merely acting out to preserve the status quo and no one can blame them for it. Blame the people who are being manipulated and victimized by this agenda, i.e. muslims!
Conclusion: When you assume, you try to make an a$$ out of yourself and me. And, I would rather have you make an a$$ outta yourself only.
"..It is ethnic hatred that has been given a religious spin..."
Women and children are being killed, raped and kicked out of their houses merely because of their religion. The mosques are being burned and you come out and say this is not about religion?? It is sad to see how someone, who is supposedly a little more educated than he sounds, fails to acknowledge the underlying causes of this great atrocity. It was the same issue in Bosnia, where the media never once used the term "muslims" in describing victims and the same card is being played now, except this time to "help" the victims.
There's no use of discussing the second part of your posting because it deals with ideaology of self-taught-believes and this is neither the place nor the medium to prove you wrong!
Stud:
"....No relegion is more deseased than the Christian Faith....."
Wrong!!! Islam tops the list as one of the most misunderstood and therefore, deceased religion of the world. It is this reason why muslims are the way they are now!! Christianity can salvage a little pride by claiming that they still have the pope!! Where;s the khalifa?
By the way, the issue of kosovor children was put into the thread to remind folks that there are kids out there who are going through a lot worse than what these kids went through. Children are being made into orphans at any given day and at any given time.
CO shooting is sad, but don't forget the children of kosovo in your prayers!!
Stud bhia,
Maan aanum kaa maan danaam.
Bashaar kee kayya basaat.
I would love to share my views and their limitations with you.....Cant do it here though....Too much to write, and I am not good at language or typing....
Aap e-mail kijjyye mujhayy...baat kartay hain...
Ghalib wrote:
"Once again, MNI puts on the veneer of this mystified eloquent, answers-for-all-the-problems, personality and offers his ass-esment on what I have written."
People usually tell me I am eloquent. I must be. But we all know it's a bit embarassing to praise Iblees incarnate like myself, hence the stuff about 'pretending to be'. Sucks, doesn't it?
"why are you bringing the religion card into a debate with ME again?? You lack the depth and the patience for such conversation."
No. you brought the religion card. Now this depth business is very thin ice. I wouldn't bring that up if I were you.
"you have "salvaged" yourself by distancing from religion and have found refuge in condemning everything religion has to offer,"
Someone was talking about assumptions. Bird brain, where did I condemn everything that religion has to offer?
"It is sad to see how someone, who is supposedly a little more educated than he sounds, "
Ghalib munnay, you keep praising me and every time you do that, you wince in pain. Yes the rumors are true. I am educated and very smart.
Now I will let you go. You can go back to taaRoo'ing Muslim sisters in gulshan iqbal. Or have you started using Victoria's secret in the land of the paleedh kuffaar?
MNI
PS: Buy yourself a lollypop for coming up with 'ass-umption'. That was very clever.
aaaaaaaahem
I think I warned you…yeah
I did.
Closed..
Take it to religon.