Is it a war on Islam? Is this the clash between west and Islam? More importantly is it inevitable?
After reading a topic in the World affairs forum and a few other discussions, I have the uneasy feeling that Samuel Huntingdon was right in his in/famous essay. Let me elaborate. Firstly as much as world leaders try to distance themselves from this term and go out of their way to convince people that this is not the case, the large majority of the populace, especially the Muslim population are not convinced by their words simply because their actions, to the Muslims, prove otherwise.
Secondly after learning about the different interpretations of democracy and what it means to different people in different places, I think the most interesting one I came across was that for democratic principles to be implemented, the governance has to be secular. In other words there HAS to be a separation of the state and the religion. This I don’t think will ever be accepted by the Muslim populace, because naturally they believe as an article of faith that Islam is a Complete Way of Life and thus that automatically INCLUDES the political, social and economical system, which unlike in ‘Western’ societies is seen to be a means to an end. How this is or may be achieved is not the topic of discussion.
The third and most convincing argument that I can think of to put forward in support of this theory is that between the US (I’m choosing to refer to the US because at present it is the benchmark for ‘western power’) and Islam, in this Global Age, both recognise a ‘One World’ (call it Third Way the Ummah or whatever, in essence it is the same), both have a definitive ‘moral’ outlook and both subscribe to socio-economic structures and yet, tellingly both are absolute antithesis of each other with respect to those systems. So if not a war against Islam, are we actually witnessing a clash (or the beginning of a clash) between two powerful, global ideologies competing with each other for the ‘upper hand’ as it were? (again this is not about how the system should could or would be implemented)
What are your views on this? I would specially like to hear the views of the non-muslim ppl on this board.
Can the admins NOT move this to religious forum please.
I dont know how relevant this quote is, but i found it really interesting. (I think i read Huntington somewhere in the post.) :)
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
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*Originally posted by kenny: *
I dont know how relevant this quote is, but i found it really interesting. (I think i read Huntington somewhere in the post.) :)
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
Samuel P. Huntington
What do you think?
[/QUOTE]
It's true throughout history, for any civilisation. Just try and name any civilisation in history that has ever expanded its influence without being better at applying violence.
Check how incredibly successful Muslim armies were during that period. Both superpowers of the world at that time (The Byzantine Empire & the Persian empire) were defeated because Muslim efforts to apply organised violence were better than those empires efforts to apply organised violence. In India & the Far East (Indonesia), whilst most of the conversions to Islam were done without recourse to violence, Muslims states were established and expanded their spheres of influence primarily through military might.
At the risk of angering a number of people here, I am going to say this.
This cannot be a war of civilzations because only one side has any semblance of civilization. The fundamentalists islamists have imho beaten any sense of civilization in the islamic world to dust by calling for suicide bombings and other acts of terror. Wherever they have power they start curbing progress and quality of life - no TV, no football with shorts, women should wear sacks or bags with little holes!, cannot shave, ban science, no real education - just Koran in schools!, intolerance towards other religions and religious practices ......most bizarre and uncivilized! If anything I will call it a war by the civilized world against these uncivilized fundamentalist orangutans (and that I hope doesn't insult the apes too much). pond Scum is the right word for people who insite children to strap bombs on themselves!
^It is very convineint for you to be the judge of those people, isnt it? When was the last time you had to cross a check point , and detained and subjected to humiliating comments just to go to work? When was the last time your family house was razed by an army bulldozer? When was the last time you had to live in a refugee camp because someone else liked your land? Did you answer yes to any of the above questions? If not then refrain from passing judgement on matters that you have no idea about.
As far as the other point you raised, you pretty much described Talibans...they are gone. BTW, do educate yourself about Iraq. Iraq was the leading Arab country both scientifically and economically before the sanctions.
Its a war between the Muslims and Westeren Civilization, not between hinduus and Muslims.
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*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
At the risk of angering a number of people here, I am going to say this.
This cannot be a war of civilzations because only one side has any semblance of civilization. The fundamentalists islamists have imho beaten any sense of civilization in the islamic world to dust by calling for suicide bombings and other acts of terror. Wherever they have power they start curbing progress and quality of life - no TV, no football with shorts, women should wear sacks or bags with little holes!, cannot shave, ban science, no real education - just Koran in schools!, intolerance towards other religions and religious practices ......most bizarre and uncivilized! If anything I will call it a war by the civilized world against these uncivilized fundamentalist orangutans (and that I hope doesn't insult the apes too much). pond Scum is the right word for people who insite children to strap bombs on themselves!
[/QUOTE]
have you ever heard the phrase everything is fair in love and war
you talk about suicide bombimg. well give them the same amount of weapons. let them have their own military and force and then let them fight a war which to par with their aggressors. when you are under attack are in war and don't have any weapons to fight with, you find other ways to hit back at the enemy and in my opinion, suicide bombing is all they are left with. you are going to die either way. so why not take a few more with you :-) and pls don't talk about civilians being killed because that's what the other side is doing. and in war civilian deaths are a mere colleteral damage so let be this the colletral damage in this situation. i've learned this from your civilized world
about TV, sports, etc, that have nothing to do with civilization. that is more related with technology and progress. civilization is more about ethics, morals, rules, laws and principles. for your so-called civilized world, all these above mentioned factors are for others to follow. example geneva convension. openly shows how civilized USA is
:-)
about teaching of Quran in school, well that is not happening in all schools. they do teach other subjects with Quran. you can't put everyone in the same boat. these bags with holes are called hijabs and they are a personal choice and no everyone is forced to wear them so try to be reasonable when you are generalizing. :-)
This is not just about war against Taliban. Besides, Taliban never banned science, stop reading your local Tabloids/evening newspapers and join the world of information. Iraq is not “fundamentalist” Islamic country, in fact it is very much secular state with majority Muslim population. “Koran” is not the only thing that is taught in schools, its just part of another subject. Get your facts straight before you make statements like these.
And about “suicide bombers”, this is out of sheer frustration, when you are out of everything, then you are totally frustrated and you resort to any level of backlash.
spread of Islam?
This is not just about war against Taliban. Besides, Taliban never banned science, stop reading your local Tabloids/evening newspapers and join the world of information. Iraq is not “fundamentalist” Islamic country, in fact it is very much secular state with majority Muslim population. “Koran” is not the only thing that is taught in schools, its just part of another subject. Get your facts straight before you make statements like these.