CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

[Shamraz_Khan]

Now you know why religion, science and politics should never be mixed. How many of these men actually know what DNA is and how it works?

Council of Islamic Ideology decree ‘insensitive to rape victims’: HRCP - DAWN.COM

LAHORE: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) on Friday expressed alarm and disappointment over a declaration by the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) that DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape.

The human rights watchdog called the assertion “regressive, unfortunate and unkind to rape victims.”

“HRCP wants to unequivocally state that the latest pronouncement of the CII is regressive, brings no credit to this body and certainly not to the country, but most important of all it is exceptionally insensitive and unkind to rape victims,” said a press release by the commission.

On Wednesday, a meeting of the CII had declared DNA tests not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape, but could be used as a supporting evidence for confirmation of the crime.

The CII was also of the view that Islam has set procedures to determine cases of rape and said Islamic procedure should be adopted during investigation.

“Refuting its (DNA test’s) importance and much more crucially, suggesting that it is made inadmissible as primary evidence helps the rapist and no one else. The CII recommendation refuses to take into account the rights of rape victims and the need to punish the criminals who are proven guilty beyond doubt,” said the HRCP in its statement.

The human rights watchdog also called on the new government for an urgent reconstitution of the CII.

“Recommendations such as these demonstrate how dangerously conservative and out of touch with the times the CII is today… the pitiable fact that this entirely uncalled for recommendation did not encounter opposition in the CII is ground enough for urgent reconstitution of the CII in an inclusive manner with wide consultation,” it said.

The new government must move without delay to undo the damage done by this “reckless and injudicious pronouncement by the CII”, it added.

[Ghost14]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

That there is even a CII is ridiculous.

[aaliyahkhan1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

how is it insensitive to rape VICTIMS!!!

insensitivity is getting raped and then being blamed for it!!!

[StormRaiser]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

I think it is sad and so ridiculous that it is not even funny. This is what happens when somebody stops understanding the essence of religion and focus only on the ritualistic part of the religion.

[queer]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

well in any case, isnt DNA evidence only evidence of intercourse? i don’t see how that would have been primary evidence for rape, unless a minor was involved. and they are permitting it as secondary evidence provided a case can be made from other things for rape.

[Scherbatsky]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@aaliyahkhan1

how is it insensitive to rape VICTIMS!!!

insensitivity is getting raped and then being blamed for it!!!

How is it not?

Wow, this is utterly disgusting. Islamic method meaning “witnessing the rape by 4 adults” !?

Some of the other declarations:

A meeting of the CII, presided over by its chairman Maulana Mohammad Khan Sherani on Wednesday, also maintained that there was nothing wrong with the blasphemy law and it didn’t need amendment.

The meeting was of the view that Islam has set procedures to determine cases of rape and said Islamic procedure should be adopted during investigation.

It declared human cloning illegal because it is against Islam.

The CII directed the Higher Education Commission and other institutions to correct English translation of ‘Allah’, ‘Rasool’ and ‘Masjid’.

It said the usage of ‘Holy Book’ and ‘Holy Place’ was illegal.

The meeting expressed concern over changes made in the syllabus of Islamic Studies, especially in Punjab, and instructed the provincial government to include the deleted chapters/essays from the curriculum.

It instructed the Director General, Research, Mohammad Ilyas Khan who is also CII secretary, to send letters to all provinces and Gilgit-Baltistan asking them to ensure Islamic education in their syllabus.

The council suggested dialogue to resolve the issue of ‘Ruet-i-Hilal’ (sighting of moon) due to which every year a dispute arises between religious scholars of Khyber Pakhtunkhawa and other provinces.

[aaliyahkhan1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@Scherbatsky

**How is it not? **

Wow, this is utterly disgusting. Islamic method meaning “witnessing the rape by 4 adults” !?

Sorry, my bad. I thought CII was saying it was insensitive to rape victims to perform a DNA test! (I need to get my eyes tested!)

it sure is disgusting that they need 4 adult witnesses for it..

[muqawwee123]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

I think people first know what are the exact teachings of Islam on the issue, before raising their fingers on each and every issue. Here are the translation of verses from Sura e Noor:

Surat An-Nur - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient.

Except for those who repent thereafter and reform, for indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
**And those who accuse their wives [of adultery] and have no witnesses except themselves - then the witness of one of them [shall be] four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the truthful.

And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars.

But it will prevent punishment from her if she gives four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the liars.

And the fifth [oath will be] that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he was of the truthful.
**

Now continue!

[Scherbatsky]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

“then those who accuse chaste women and then do not bring 4 witnesses”. I’m sorry maybe I’m not understanding it correctly?

[muqawwee123]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@Scherbatsky

“then those who accuse chaste women and then do not bring 4 witnesses”. I’m sorry maybe I’m not understanding it correctly?

then the procedure follow, which doesn’t involve four witnesses. Skipping that procedure creates unnecessary propaganda against Islamic procedure.

[Huma_1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

What queer said. If the defendant’s DNA is found on the victim, it doesn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn’t consensual sex. Not to mention the contamination issues that the defense could easily bring up. Last year in the UK, they charged a man with rape on the basis of DNA evidence alone. Turns out the lab had contaminated the sample and the man was innocent. Forensics firm investigated over DNA blunder in rape case | Law | The Guardian

To prove that it was rape, you need other supporting evidence.

Why should an advisory council like CII be making recommendations on legal matters though? Even if they do, they should be used only as consultants, not legislators.

[CEO1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

Most rape cases are thrown out in the British courts for the reason it is difficult to distinguish between consensual and non-consensual. DNA can’t and shouldn’t be used as a single determinant to determine whether a crime has been committed. At the very most it can be used to supplement evidence at best.

[mufaddal]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

This 4 witness bit is required by the victim to prove rape or by an accuser to prove adultery? I don’t seem to get this.

[Scherbatsky]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@Huma

What queer said. If the defendant’s DNA is found on the victim, it doesn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn’t consensual sex. Not to mention the contamination issues that the defense could easily bring up. Last year in the UK, they charged a man with rape on the basis of DNA evidence alone. Turns out the lab had contaminated the sample and the man was innocent. Forensics firm investigated over DNA blunder in rape case | Law | The Guardian

To prove that it was rape, you need other supporting evidence.

Why should an advisory council like CII be making recommendations on legal matters though? Even if they do, they should be used only as consultants, not legislators.

This explanation sounds very reasonable for UK but Pakistani women already don’t receive the deserved justice when it comes to rape/sexual assaults. Mukhtaran Mai’s case - those guys got away with it pretty much with no harm done with clear cut proof etc. So I’m a little concerned about not taking the DNA as the primary evidence - sometimes that may be all a victim has. Also, the social stigma in Pakistan surrounding rape victims is pretty serious that you don’t normally see false rape claims in Pakistan. The repercussions are bad enough to seriously ward someone away from doing so.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@queer

well in any case, isnt DNA evidence only evidence of intercourse? i don’t see how that would have been primary evidence for rape, unless a minor was involved. and they are permitting it as secondary evidence provided a case can be made from other things for rape.

I saw this documentary on PBS’s Frontline few days back called “Outlawed in Pakistan”. The fact is, in Islamic system, the burden of proof is on victim of rape & it is for her to prove her innocence. This does nothing to change that.

Here is the documentary of one girl and what happened to her.

Video: Outlawed in Pakistan | Watch FRONTLINE Online | PBS Video

[Huma_1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

@Scherbatsky

This explanation sounds very reasonable for UK but Pakistani women already don’t receive the deserved justice when it comes to rape/sexual assaults. Mukhtaran Mai’s case - those guys got away with it pretty much with no harm done with clear cut proof etc. So I’m a little concerned about not taking the DNA as the primary evidence - sometimes that may be all a victim has. Also, the social stigma in Pakistan surrounding rape victims is pretty serious that you don’t normally see false rape claims in Pakistan. The repercussions are bad enough to seriously ward someone away from doing so.

In that case, it’s not very reasonable for the UK either because the conviction rate in rape cases there has been described as “shockingly low”. Only 7% of the reported rape cases lead to a conviction. So there could be hundreds if not thousands of Mukhtaran bibis in Britain itself. I’m not trivializing the case of Mukhtaran mai or trying to divert attention from our country’s problems. I’m just saying that using DNA as the sole conclusive evidence is not the right way to go about increasing conviction rates or curbing the crime of rape. It’s tough but it’s fair in order to prevent wrongful convictions. I get where you’re coming from but there’s plenty of room for reasonable doubt in the argument that “you don’t normally see false rape claims in Pakistan”. It doesn’t prove anything.

What we lack are responsible and trained law enforcement personnel and effective crime investigation procedures. The government/courts need to get their act together and start monitoring and reprimanding the relevant authorities. Who is to say that the corrupt lot won’t start fabricating or erasing DNA evidence?

[Scherbatsky]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

Good post Huma, I can appreciate that it is precautionary to prevent wrongful conviction (although it isn’t too far off to say that’s hardly a concern in Pakistan atm) and yes, in a situation where we already lag behind in having semi-sophisticated justice system, to take away DNA evidence is somewhat unsettling. Now, perhaps I need to read up on what exactly is the Islamic method of conviction the CII is referring to but this is undoubtedly worrisome for Pakistani rape victims overall.

[ButtSb]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

So how do people in west establish that the sex was not consentual and indeed forced? like, it would be circumstantial evidence i guess…

[Huma_1]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

Eye witnesses/CCTV images, confessions (secretly taped or otherwise), signs of violence (e.g. in one case, they found traces of the rapist’s blood under the victim’s fingernails.. when he was arrested, they saw scratches on his face… the defense claimed he was scratched by his cat or they could’ve claimed it was rough but consensual… the prosecution claimed it was the victim who scratched him as she was trying to fight him off and that’s how his blood got under her fingernails… the jury found him guilty of rape), history of the accused (e.g. if he has a past criminal record or domestic abuse problems etc … in another case, an ex-boyfriend was found guilty because he was known to be stalking and threatening his ex-girlfriend and people had testified that she was scared of him and couldn’t have agreed to even meet him let alone have consensual sex with him), and a variety of other circumstantial evidence e.g. in one case, they found traces of GHB (a date rape drug) in the victim’s body so it proved that she could not have consciously agreed to anything. It’s quite difficult, hence the low conviction rates.

[ButtSb]

Re: CII: DNA test results are not acceptable as primary evidence in cases of rape

is one witness enough to convict? or multiple are needed?