Christianity/The Holy Trinity

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I find the concept of the “Holy Trinity” very hard to grasp. Although it is 3 seperate “forces” it is still one God? It’s got me confused. I also have a couple questions about Christianity in general, as well.

Can someone please explain the following in more detail:

If you can refer to each as “God the Father”, “God the Son”, and “God the Holy Spirit”, wouldn’t that be 3 seperate forces? I understand they form one God, but wouldn’t that limit the power of each? If one is “eliminated” (somehow), will the other two still be able to “function”?

Jesus is referred to as the “son of God”, but he is also God Himself in human form?

When Jesus was on Earth, the Bible said he prayed. Whom did he pray to? Wouldn’t “God the Father” just be another part of the Trinity?

Are all 3 parts of the Trinity at the same level, or is one “holier” than the others?

If Jesus died on the cross for ‘our’ sins, then what incentive do we have to not sin?

During Catholic mass, when they put that thing piece of bread (I don’t know what it’s called =S) in their mouths, do they really believe it is the body of Christ in their mouths, or is it all just symbolic?

If anyone could help me out in understanding these concepts, it will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance :slight_smile:

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Re: Christianity/The Holy Trinity

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac7.htm#links
There is a whole lists of debates,articles,quotes from Quran and Bible.

Btw, never judge anything. Never say they (Jews and Christians) are wrong or right.

oyeee peeps
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Re: Christianity/The Holy Trinity

Phatima1, you ask quite a few questions and hope my long reply can help.

Christians don’t see the Tri-Une God (singular) as “forces” but rather consisting of three “entities”. For simplicity, Christians call each a “person”. The three “entities” together make up God Almighty. It is merely a way for our simple minds to try and grasp the complexity of God Almighty. Very similar to how a virus might theorise in order to understand a human being. Is it absolutely true/correct? I don’t know, but it makes it definitely much easier to understand God Almighty (my personal opinion). If someone can come with a better concept for understanding all God’s traits (as seen in the Bible) Christians will accept it.

Only one of the three entities is referred to as “God the Father”. Yes, each entity on its own is limited with what the other present in the Tri-Une God. For example: The Father and Holy Spirit can’t appear in a bodily way to humans as Jesus did. Jesus is the “body” of God. The “soul” of God is the Father and the Holy Spirit form the “spirit” part of God. Together they make up God Almighty. (The same way we are also tri-une). If one of the “entities” could be “eliminated”, God won’t be complete anymore (as you stated).

Correct. The terminology “son” and “father” is merely a way to indicate the relationship. Anyone of the three “entities” can be referred to as “God”. For example: a certain person’s body is referred to as “Ann”. Her soul and spirit are also referred to as “Ann”. Together they make up Ann Complete.

Correct. Sometimes humans “talk” to their bodies or spirit as well. Everyone has motivated himself before some difficult task by “talking” to himself (i.e. motivating the spirit).

There exists a hierarchy which God also wants to see we use in ourselves. Jesus (the body) needs to be submissive to the Father (God’s soul = mind/planning/thinking/emotions/etc.). Since all three is part of God Almighty, no one is “holier” than the other.

Jesus’ death was for all but only those who accept the offer/contract benefit. In accepting the offer/contract, you need to be “reborn” in spirit (renewed by God’s Holy Spirit) after which one becomes a slave to God. A slave shouldn’t sin/disobey his master. If the slave does sin/disobey, the offer/contract may be terminated.

There exists a difference of opinion among theologians on the issue. I think the Catholic theologians believe the bread changes into Jesus’ real body (transubstitution). Protestants believe it is only a symbol.

BTW: Christians talk of a Tri-Une God because we can identify 3 “entities”. If there can be identified a 4’th, Christians will call it the Quad-Une God. A finger of God Almighty will still be God and referred to as God.

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Re: Christianity/The Holy Trinity

Good to see you back, The Old Man...:)

I once had this discssion with a 'born-again' Christian who considered Catholics as non-Christians...

He started out on a rather angry note by questioning me, saying, 'Do you know if you are going to heaven? Does your God promise you salvation? From what I know, Muslims too will go to hell...My God has promised me heaven while the Muslim God delivers no such promise..."

I replied that yes, Muslims are promised paradise, but of they sin, then those sins must be washed off before they can enter heaven...It's not like you can do something, not repent and reach heaven...

So he replied, "See? Muslims don't know what their fate will be...Their God can put them in heaven or hell whenever He likes...But by accepting Jesus as your Christ and Saviour, salvation can be yours and the promise of heaven..."

To which I asked, so that means that Christians can do anything they want and not answer for it?

To which he literally became silent, then later replied, "Only if they repent..."

Which really is what Islam believes in, that men do mistakes, and they have to ask forgiveness and answer for it...

This contract thing which you mention, is the forst time I am hearing something like this...

So basically it means, by sinning, you are not believing in Christ hence nullifying the contract, for which if you repent, the contract is valid again...

Because obviously, if the contract requires you to accept Christ as god for everlasting salvation, then where does the repentance play a role? I mean, what good is accepting Christ if you still have to repent or you can become a non-Christian by doing a small sin...Because if the contract is nullified by a sin, it obviously means you are not a Christian anymore...

My question is, if repentance is still needed to remain a Christian, then what is the need to believe in Christ for everlasting salvation? And if Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, then why the need to repent?

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The Old Man, thankyou. That was really helpful :)

I have another question: Why was there a need for Jesus to be baptized here on Earth?

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Please stick to the topic, thank you.

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3 = 1 umm no obviously very wrong concept, however that is their belief best way to refute the xstians is in open debate unlike the west who make dirty underhand insults against islam!

Road rage desi style - any one here have it?
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Re: Christianity/The Holy Trinity

To set an example for us.

Baptism is a symbolic gesture of the washing off of one’s sinful nature.

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I was going to say that perhaps as a gesture of 'Sunnah' (example) in Christianity...

Didn't know if that would be right, so refrained...

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Salaam Lajawab :slight_smile:

I will try and explain from a Christian’s perspective.

A covenant is a contract before God. Testament is Greek for the same. The Old Testament relates to the contract between God and his chosen people the Jews. It existed on keeping the Law of God which is impossible for sinful human beings to keep. The New Testament relates to a new covenant/contract set up by the death of Jesus Christ. Jesus died after living a sinless live and fulfilled all the contract/covenant requirements on our behalf. In order for us to also be part of this contract (become partners), we need to accept Jesus as saviour (he is the guarantor). Those that do not accept Jesus as saviour doesn’t fall under this contract/covenant of grace (grace because we can’t do anything to warrant our participation).

In the Old Testament/Covenant of Law, people needed to live, sin, repent, sin, repent and never knew if they haven’t done some unknown sin which they forgot to ask forgiveness for. They therefore never knew if they are saved or not. Islam is a religion also based on laws/rules/regulations similar to Judaism.

From the Bible we have the following scenario:

There exist a set of books before God. In various books all our deeds are clearly described. In one small book all the names are written of those whose sins are forgiven. During the final judgment, only the small book will be opened. Those whose names are not written in the small book will be sent to hell.

What most Christians don’t know is that the names are only written in pencil in the small book. It can be erased again. Once your name is written, you have to do some serious sin in order for it to be erased again. You therefore can have the surety of salvation here and now once your name is written in the small book. In order to keep your name in the book though, you need daily to ask forgiveness for any known or unknown sins committed with a true remorseful heart.

I believe this is what the Christian tried to explain. The difference (according to him) between Islam and Christianity is therefore that a Christian can know today that they are saved and in Islam not.

WHO will SIT on front seat......
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i wud like to know how this concept originated &
is it supported by bible?

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sorry, but i find contradicting statements (highlighted in red)
The first Red Part indicates that Christians do not fall under the category of sinninig and being not forgiven.
The second Red Part tells us, that Christians need to repent afterall (that means they are not sure either, if their sins will be forgiven)

Finally, could you explain "This Contract" between God and Jesus?
or should i say between "Jesus" and "Jesus", since according to you God is Jesus...

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Which concept?

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.

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Re: Christianity/The Holy Trinity

m sorry,i wsnt here.
the concept of trinity .
is it an inference or is it indicated in the bible

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All Christians sin continually. Often we sin knowingly and therefor needs to ask forgiveness once we have a change of heart. We know that God will forgive us but still need to ask forgiveness. Let me use an example: a slave eats a piece of cake not meant for him. He later realize what he has done is wrong and asks forgiveness with true repentance. Being a good master, he is forgiven and the relationship has no damage. The slave knows he has a good master and knows he will be forgiven but still need to do the act of asking forgiveness. If he doesn’t, it will appear he is cocky, arrogant, etc. If he willfully sin continuously and become a bad slave, his master might get rid of him. We are in the same relationship with God. Being God he call us his “children” etc. but the relationship is really a master-slave one. There is nothing we can give God which He does not possess exept our unconditional love, repect, honour, worship, and obeyance.

No contract between Jesus and God. “Contract” or covenant is between God and those that accept God as master and God. Because wo/men could not fulfill their part in the contract, God fulfilled it for them on their behalf (by coming to earth in the form of Jesus). That is why it is only out of God’s mercy and grace we can be saved. No person can “work out” his own salvation and become redeemable before God. All wo/men are imperfect.

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It is the best theory presently which explains God Almighty as we read about God from the Bible.

In fact the first inference of the concept of “trinity” we find in Genesis 1 when it is stated that we humans were created “in God’s image”. Surely no one looks identical to God or even like each other. The explanation should therefor be that something else is referred to. We are created tri-une with a body, soul and spirit. We are therefor created similar in appearance and function as our God. It is clearly stated that only three “things” were created (made from nothing) in Genesis 1:

  1. The universe with all materie out of which every body is made off (the first missing link that no scientist can explain where it came from)
  2. Soul living in the above body for certain animal forms (the second missing link between animals and plants/rocks)
  3. God breathed His spirit in humans (the third missing link between animals and mankind)

Hope above shed some more light. Hating to copy-paste I tend to rather use my own words and thoughts which might not always be so clear to others (although daylight clear to myself :slight_smile: ).