If we were all created from Adam and Eve, aren’t we than all sisters and brothers despite our religions, castsm nationality etc.? Tell me what you think?
Ask the hindus why there is brahmin,dalit.harijam
2/ ask hindus,why only those who didn't convert from hinduism to muslim,or christian can't belong in india
3/ask israelis why u have to be jew to be israelis
4/ask jew why no non jews is not beloved of there god
5/ask,christians why only they can get sLVATION.
6/ASK WHITE WHY ONLY WHITE ARE CASPABLE OF SOMTHING GOOD,BE IT HUMANISM,IDEA,ECONOMY,RELIGIN,
I COULD GO ONbut this will Amy keep u busy enough to give me enough time to come back & write more
Amy ,have fun,been there done that !lol
Sanam wrote:
[quote]
I COULD GO ON.....
[/quote]
i bet you could. amazing how you managed to attack all non-muslims starting off from such an innocuous topic.. a lil bit dissapointing though that you didnt mention adam or eve.. maybe next time..
Yes,Theists.
Do explain how we’re all brothers and sisters according to Adam and Eve.
And if Incest being a SIN in religious and common sense values, and yet we’re all brothers and sisters. Who do we marry? Who do we join in union to create children?
Therefore your parents are ALSO SINNERS, and even your grandparents and all of their relations are filled with SIN. That means they will be going to “Hell” I guess.
GOD I love Atheism.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Arai
[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
**
Yes,Theists.
Do explain how we're all brothers and sisters according to Adam and Eve.
And if Incest being a SIN in religious and common sense values, and yet we're all brothers and sisters. Who do we marry? Who do we join in union to create children?
Therefore your parents are ALSO SINNERS, and even your grandparents and all of their relations are filled with SIN. That means they will be going to "Hell" I guess.
GOD I love Atheism. :)
Arai**
[/quote]
DEFENITION OF INCEST KEEP CHANGING.Every body or atleast majority of the world have some idea of creation ,unlike some pagan religion who just have a smoke screen of philosophy in vague rhetorics about any creation.Yes in the beginning brother did marry sisters & in that whole world is product of incest though very far removed thousands of years & thousands of generation ago.This fact is the ground ,that in islam cousin marriage is not a taboo or sinfull .although not a recommendation from religfous point of view.In india hindus marry cousin by conveniently changing there eligion temporarily to islam;-)
Since you arai raise the question of incest what about incest in this article.Tell me that i wrote this article or it isn't true?.It has eference of book with section you might confirm it for believing it.
LORD KRSNA'S FOOLISH DRUNKEN WIVES ARE READY TO COMMIT INCEST WITH HIS
SON (SAMBA)
Samba's mischief and that of the women combine here in one neat episode:
he misbehaves with them. Thus the destruction of the race of the Yadus
(Yadavas) is blamed on Krsna's wives, on Krsna's son, and on the rage of
Krsna himself:
"One day Narada came to Dvaraka to see Krsna. All the Yadu boys received
him with respect, but Samba, proud of his young beauty and deluded by
the fated, inevitable force of the curse, disregarded Narada. To teach
Samba a lesson, Narada told Krsna that all of Krsna's sixteen thousand
wives were in love with Samba. Samba (Krsna's son) was summoned, and the
women, whose minds were blurred by wine, showed unmistakable signs of
passion when Samba appeared. Furious, Krsna cursed them to be carried
off by barbarians after his death, and he cursed Samba to be afflicted
with leprosy. Therefore the women were carried away under the very eyes
of Arjuna. Later, Samba rememered what had happened before, and as he
was impelled by inevitable fate, he enraged the sage Durvasas and
prompted the curse that destroyed his whole family." -- Samba Purana
3:6-55; Bhavisya Purana 1:72-73.
From Lord Indra to Lord Siva to Lord Rama to Lord Krsna, the characters
& their families are utterly dysfunctional.
[Index]
sanam, a friendly advice, these people are not willing listen to/accept anything that contradicts their narrow minded views no matter how much time u waste posting all sorts of articles...
You're going to end up feeling frustrated so just ignore it!! If they're on a so-called quest for knowledge, let them do their own research.
[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
sanam, a friendly advice, these people are not willing listen to/accept anything that contradicts their narrow minded views no matter how much time u waste posting all sorts of articles...
You're going to end up feeling frustrated so just ignore it!! If they're on a so-called quest for knowledge, let them do their own research.
[/quote]
You are right HK,me too know who is doing for what,& i promise i wont hang on long.Even by the evolutionary theory why don't we see animals in between monkey & normal human that we are.No monkey has ever given birth to human ,neither no human ever given birth to chimpanzee EVER.That much about darwinism,& ppl. have written lbraries on the debunk THEORY,which has not be made stronger even thoug in that period we went from bicycle to aerpoplanes & cars to rocket & shuttles !!LOL
Hey amy,sanam !
I agree with your ideas. amy has raised a question and sanam is just emphasising on the very thing in a furious manner. Hey sanam ! be cool babe. No stupid would pay you the due attention whatever you do to make them listen. We are all definitely brothers and sisters being the children of the same parents but it has nothing to do with the ordinary brother-sister relation. even it is meant for the love and coordination of mankind to defeat their common enemy the satan. I don’t know why some poeple think so negative but you don’t mind at all. in fact these are the psycho patients who are compelled by their mental problems to frustrate others and i think they should be felt pity of.
In my opinion you should continue speaking on this topic unless you influence a number of people.
May god bless you
When I posted these few lines, I didn't think incest will consume so much energy. That's a valid point to debate. My quest was a bit deeper than that. If we are all created from Adam and Eve, then does that mean that my ancestors could be jews or romans or what ever.
Just an anecdote:
If Eve was created from a rib of Adam, shouldn't males have one less rib?
Amy please refer to my new post "pseudo intellectuals"
Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota
Yes amy we are all brothers and sisters, creation of Allah the Allmighty, and Everything that Adam preached was Islam. Jesus, Moses and 140,000 other prophets also preached Islam, and their followers, some of whom mite be our ansestors, were on the right path. So yes Jews and Christians were our brothers and still can be if they see their religion as it was supposed to be and not what it has become.
Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota
[This message has been edited by Wadi (edited November 10, 2000).]
Amy Ask one question at a time and keep an open mind .. in response to your “rib” question..
How was woman created?
The ordinary Muslim believes, as seriously as the ordinary Jew or Christian, that Adam was God’s primary creation and that Eve was made from Adam’s rib. While this myth is obviously rooted in the Yahwist’s account of creation in Genesis 2: 18-24, it has no basis whatever in the Qur’an which describes the creation of humanity in completely egalitarian terms. In the thirty or so passages pertaining to the subject of human creation, the Qur’an uses generic terms for humanity (“an-nas”, “al-insan”, “bashar”) and there is no mention in it of Hawwa’ or Eve. The word “Adam” occurs twenty-five times in the Qur’an but it is used in twenty-one cases as a symbol for self-conscious humanity. Here, it is pertinent to point out that the word “Adam” is a Hebrew word (from “adamah” meaning “the soil”) and it functions generally as a collective noun referring to “the human” rather than to a male person. In the Qur’an, the word “Adam” (which Arabic borrowed from Hebrew) mostly does not refer to a particular human being. Rather, it refers to human beings in a particular way. As pointed out by Muhammad Iqbal:
Indeed, in the verses which deal with the origin of man as a living being, the Qur’an uses the words “Bashar” or “Insan”, not “Adam” which it reserves for man in his capacity of God’s vicegerent on earth. The purpose of the Qur’an is further secured by the omission of proper names mentioned in the Biblical narration - Adam and Eve. The term “Adam” is retained and used more as a concept than as a name of a concrete human individual. The word is not without authority in the Qur’an itself 5.
An analysis of the Qur’anic descriptions of human creation shows how the Qur’an evenhandedly uses both feminine and masculine terms and imagery to describe the creation of humanity from a single source. That God’s original creation was undifferentiated humanity and not either man or woman (who appeared simultaneously at a subsequent time) is implicit in a number of Qur’anic passages. If the Qur’an makes no distinction between the creation of man and woman – as it clearly does not – why do Muslims believe that Hawwa’ was created from Adam’s rib? It is difficult to imagine that Muslims got this idea directly from Genesis 2 since very few Muslims read the Bible. It is much more likely that the rib story entered the Islamic tradition through being incorporated in the Hadith literature during the early centuries of Islam. In this context the following six “ahadith” are particularly important since they are cited in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim which Sunni Muslims regard as the two most authoritative Hadith collections whose authority is exceeded only by the Qur’an:
-
Treat women nicely, for a woman is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so if you would try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely.6
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The woman is like a rib, if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some crookedness.7
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Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt`(trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked part of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of woman.8
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Woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her.9
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Woman has been created from a rib and will in no way be straightened for you; so if you wish to benefit by her, benefit by her while crookedness remains in her. And if you attempt to straighten her, you will break her, and breaking her is divorcing her.10
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He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards women, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there so act kindly towards women.11
Elsewhere in my writings I have examined the above “ahadith” and shown them to be weak with regards to their formal aspect (i.e. with reference to their “isnad” or list of transmitters). As far as their content (“matn”) is concerned, it is obviously in opposition to the Qur’anic accounts about human creation. Since all Muslim scholars agree on the principle that any hadith which is in contradiction to the Qur’an cannot be accepted as authentic, the above-mentioned “ahadith” ought to be rejected on material grounds. However, they still continue to be a part of the Islamic tradition. This is due certainly, in significant measure, to the fact that they are included in the Hadith collections by Muhammad ibn Isma’il al-Bukhari (810-70) and Muslim bin al-Hallaj (817-75), collectively known as the Sahihan (from “sahih” meaning sound or authentic) which "form an almost unassailable authority, subject indeed to criticisms in details, yet deriving an indestructible influence from the “ijma’” or general consent of the community in custom and belief, which it is their function to authenticate"12. But the continuing popularity of these “ahadith” amongst Muslims in general also indicates that they articulate something deeply embedded in Muslim culture, namely, the belief that women are derivative and secondary in the context of human creation.
Theologically, the history of women’s inferior status in the Islamic (as well as the Jewish and Christian) tradition began with the story of Hawwa’s creation from a (crooked) rib. Changing her status requires returning to the point of creation and setting the record straight. Given the way the rib story has been used it is impossible to overemphasize its importance. The issue of woman’s creation is more fundamental theologically than any other. This is so because if man and woman have been created equal by God who is the ultimate giver of value, then they cannot become unequal, essentially, at a subsequent time. On the other hand, if man and woman have been created unequal by God, then they cannot become equal, essentially, at a subsequent time. If one upholds the view that man and woman were created equal by God – which is the teaching of the Qur’an – then the existing inequality between men and women cannot be seen as having been mandated by God but must be seen as a subversion of God’s original plan for humanity.
Taken from http://www.igc.org/ncwdi/html/Hassan.htm
Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota
[This message has been edited by Wadi (edited November 10, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
** Just an anecdote:
If Eve was created from a rib of Adam, shouldn't males have one less rib?**
[/quote]
Imagine.. if I lost an arm in a car accident.. I had a kid after the accident.. would the kid have one less arm?
at these times i usually say
'common sense ain't common these days'
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smash.gif
Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota
Well well. Back from writing several midterms. I thought I'd catch up on the latest on this site.
Sanam.
As for your attempt of proving Krishna, etc with Incest...
Like I've mentioned in perhaps over 50 posts. That I am NOT Hindu, nor was I ever Hindu, and I don't give two S's about Hindu philosophy. I am of Sikh background, and I'm an Atheist. I don't see how your post on Hinduism even applies to me.
Therefore, your reference on Krishna to me is useless. It means nothing to me, yes I can agree maybe Hindu's do that (which I never heard of anyway). I wouldn't know, since I'm not Hindu.
But for a Sikh perspective. I can tell you very clearly it is a DAMN SIN to commit incest.
It is easy as this.
Many Sikh families will NEVER allow you to marry another Sikh family (totally unrelated) if you have the same LAST NAME.
Not just your last name. But this even goes for your GRAND PARENTS LAST NAME. This is not necessarily a religious viewpoint (grandparents lastname), but Sikh culture in every community has most definitely adopted such a thing. To marry someone in your village is considered taboo, same last name is taboo, same grand parents last name, is also taboo. The concept of having intimate relations with someone part of your bloodline is just WRONG.
In Islam they allow you to marry your cousins, that's just great. As much as INCEST-committers want to believe that 97% of the time no genetic mutations occur ( Which they do I wonder why such laws as the multiplication effect exists?). Also, please don't speak for science. A Theist sincerely has no place in DEFENDING science. They may, conduct science, theorize science. But they're the last persons to DEFEND IT, just as how I would be the last person to defend a holy book.
As for Islam. At least COUSINS are not as close as SISTER and BROTHER. I don't know of Islam allowing Brother/Sister type relations. But, Cousins I am familiar with, since I know many people who are Muslim who openly admit their parents are related. Which I personally find DISGUSTING. Something that should perhaps be featured on Jerry Springer or other non-sensical shows that show the disfucntional world.
Arai
p.s. Adam and Even never existed to begin with. IF we're descendants of Adam and Eve, all of us would have similaries in our blood and DNA type. However, it is found that you can find two totallly different people, and they're DNA is COMPLETELY different. In most DNA tests, usually people are related to each other by 2% (with marginal error of +- 0.005%). But has been found, some people have NO relation whatsoever. 0%. Therefore, if there exists a possibility of two different people not being at all related. Therefore, if there was a God, he definitely created more sets of Humans instead of just Adam and Eve.
In addition. What makes me wonder is, a whole population and society like this, how is it possible that EVERYONE came from Adam and Eve? And if so, why is it that we still express hatred of our brothers and sisters, who are not of the same faith, but we can't deny they're not our bro's and sis's?
I always try to see what makes Theists think the way they do. I can never understand, what goes on in a Theists head. All I can think of is, a Theist being brianwashed as a young child, and not allowing to openly think for themselves and decide for themselves. Half of you muslims and other theists are only of your religions because you're BORN into them. None of you, are actually "re-verts", "converts" or people who adopted it specifically for the purpose of religion. Many of you guys just take religion as it is.
That is another reason why in Sikhism, noone is really ever born a Sikh. All Sikhs to become true Sikhs are baptized whne they're usually OLDER (not when they're born). Whne they understand what they're getting into, and they are solely aware of what is happening and the vows tghey take. Hence, Amritdhari. This is when you're the true designated Khalsa-style Sikh. Otherwise, I'm simply of a background of Sikh-Followers, but not Sikh.
Sikh-followers, and Sikhs always are fused together, but they are essentially different.
Arai
HK.
Don't be upset because you were unable to prove your invalid 'proofs'. Afterall, it would be quite difficult to prove something that really can't be proved, or is proved by contradictions in your theory completely.
Anyhow,
Arai
p.s. You don't have to assimilate others into your mindset. I enjoy having someone try to prove me something, I learn more that way, and I respect the person more that way, whne they at TRY to defend their arguements, instead of sitting like a fool and saying "Because I say so", but it seems as though your getting frustrated, and thus you don't allow others the oppurtunities to put forth a challenge to any of my theory/proofs. This is commonlly known as "giving-up". And I just assume you GAVE-UP.
Well I guess Allah will be proud of you for misrespresenting Islam.
Anyhow, take care SISTER. (According to Adam and Eve).
Arai
Hi friends !
the discussion seems to be really interesting. I appreciate all the people who are trying so hard to justify the beliefs of others for no personal interest. Amy’s anecdote was quite interesting and blackz has given an equally interesting explanation.
I think, Wadi, we are just diverting from the original topic by discussing the creation of eve. the matter of human brotherood is a critical one and should be paid full attention. The people who are raising the question of incest are just thinking superfucially. In fact the matter is not of the usual Brother-sister realation but it is somewhat which relates us together for the good reason of our one God. We consider Adam and Eve and all the virtuous as our parents 'cause they were the true servant of our God. Our relation with them is for the sake of God.
That is all on my part for tonight. See you all soon,Bye
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
P.S: All the comments and criticism would be appreciated whether “positive or negative”.
WE ARE ALL ANGELS WITH ONE WING EACH. WE CAN FLY ONLY WHILE EMBRASSING EACH OTHER.
A.I.
Intent of this post was purely religious discussion on the theory of creation. Mixing science would be contradictory and make it more complicated.
[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited November 20, 2000).]