Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

Society Religion & Philosophy
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If the recent genome study denying the Aryan-Dravidian divide has established the antiquity of caste segregations in marriage, the ongoing session of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva looks set to recognize caste-based discrimination as a human rights violation. This, despite India's opposition and following Nepal's breaking ranks on the culturally sensitive issueNepal has emerged as the first country from South Asia -- the region where untouchability has been traditionally practiced -- to declare support for the draft principles and guidelines published by UNHRC four months ago for ``effective elimination of discrimination based on work and descent'' -- the UN terminology for caste inequities.

In a side-event to the session on September 16, Nepalese minister Jeet Bahadur Darjee Gautam said his county welcomed the idea mooted by the UNHRC document to involve ``regional and international mechanism, the UN and its organs'' to complement national efforts to combat caste discrimination. This is radically different from India's stated aversion to the internationalization of the caste problem.

Much to India's embarrassment, Nepal's statement evoked an immediate endorsement from the office of the UN high commissioner for human rights, Navanethem Pillay, a South African Tamil. Besides calling Nepal's support a significant step by a country grappling with this entrenched problem itself'', Pillay's office said it wouldlike to encourage other states to follow this commendable example''.

The reference to India was unmistakable especially since Pillay had pressed the issue during her visit to New Delhi in March. Pillay not only asked India to address ``its own challenges nationally, but show leadership in combating caste-based discrimination globally''. The granddaughter of an indentured labourer taken to South Africa from a village near Madurai, Pillay recalled that in 2006, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had compared untouchability to apartheid.

Adding to India's discomfiture, Sweden, in its capacity as the president of the Europeon Union, said, ``caste-based discrimination and other forms of discrimination based on work and descent is an important priority for EU''. If this issue continues to gather momentum, UNHRC may in a future session adopt the draft principles and guidelines and, to impart greater legal force, send them for adoption to the UN General Assembly.

The draft principles specifically cited caste as one of the grounds on which more than 200 million people in the world suffer discrimination. ``This type of discrimination is typically associated with the notion of purity and pollution and practices of untouchability, and is deeply rooted in societies and cultures where this discrimination is practiced,'' it said.

Though India succeeded in its efforts to keep caste out of the resolution adopted by the 2001 Durban conference on racism, the issue has since re-emerged in a different guise, without getting drawn into the debate over where caste and race are analogous

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Did you write this?

If not then please provide link or reference.

Timepass-April 2014
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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

**An article one must read.
**

India - Caste and Class**

Varna, Caste, and Other Divisions**

     **Although many other nations are characterized by social inequality,         perhaps nowhere else in the world has inequality been so elaborately         constructed as in the Indian institution of caste.**

Caste has long existed in India, but in the modern period it has been severely criticized by both Indian and foreign observers. Although some educated Indians tell non-Indians that caste has been abolished or that “no one pays attention to caste anymore,” such statements do not reflect reality.

     Caste has undergone significant change since independence, but it         still involves hundreds of millions of people. In its preamble, India's         constitution forbids negative public discrimination on the basis of         caste. **However, caste ranking and caste-based interaction have occurred         for centuries and will continue to do so well into the foreseeable         future,** more in the countryside than in urban settings and more in the         realms of kinship and marriage than in less personal interactions.

     **Castes are ranked, named, endogamous (in-marrying) groups, membership         in which is achieved by birth.** **There are thousands of castes and         subcastes in India**, and these large kinship-based groups are fundamental         to South Asian social structure. Each caste is part of a locally based         system of interde-pendence with other groups, involving occupational         specialization, and is linked in complex ways with networks that stretch         across regions and throughout the nation.

     **The word caste derives from the Portuguese casta ,         meaning breed, race, or kind. Among the Indian terms that are sometimes         translated as caste are varna (see Glossary), jati         (see Glossary), jat , biradri , and samaj .         All of these terms refer to ranked groups of various sizes and breadth. **

**Varna , or color, **actually refers to large divisions that include various castes; the other terms include castes and subdivisions of castes sometimes called subcastes.

     Many castes are traditionally associated with an occupation, such as         high-ranking Brahmans; middle-ranking farmer and artisan groups, such as         potters, barbers, and carpenters; and very low-ranking         "Untouchable" leatherworkers, butchers, launderers, and         latrine cleaners. There is some correlation between ritual rank on the         caste hierarchy and economic prosperity. Members of higher-ranking         castes tend, on the whole, to be more prosperous than members of         lower-ranking castes. Many lower-caste people live in conditions of         great poverty and social disadvantage.

     According to the Rig Veda, sacred texts that date back to oral         traditions of more than 3,000 years ago, progenitors of the four ranked varna         groups sprang from various parts of the body of the primordial man,         which Brahma created from clay (see The Vedas and Polytheism, ch. 3).

Each group had a function in sustaining the life of society–the social body. Brahmans, or priests, were created from the mouth. They were to provide for the intellectual and spiritual needs of the community. Kshatriyas, warriors and rulers, were derived from the arms. Their role was to rule and to protect others. Vaishyas–landowners and merchants–sprang from the thighs, and were entrusted with the care of commerce and agriculture. Shudras–artisans and servants–came from the feet. Their task was to perform all manual labor.

     **Later conceptualized was a fifth category, "Untouchable"         menials, relegated to carrying out very menial and polluting work         related to bodily decay and dirt.** Since 1935 "Untouchables"         have been known as Scheduled Castes, referring to their listing on         government rosters, or schedules.

They are also often called by Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi’s term Harijans, or “Children of God.” Although the term Untouchable appears in literature produced by these low-ranking castes, in the 1990s, many politically conscious members of these groups prefer to refer to themselves as Dalit (see Glossary), a Hindi word meaning oppressed or downtrodden. According to the 1991 census, there were 138 million Scheduled Caste members in India, approximately 16 percent of the total population.
…

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UN set to treat caste as human rights violation - India - NEWS - The Times of India

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:salam:

Akhi, JAK for catching that. My mind seems to have wandered off. :slight_smile:

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

So PIUSA and Saregamapa, what are the sacred scriptures of Hinduism. For instance for muslims its Quran and hadith.

For Hinduism, I know Bhagvad-Gita, what else is considered sacred and inviolable? Is Upanishads are partr of sacred scriptures. And what else? I can see in the Gita that there is clearly a four caste system but I cannot see where it says to demean the other caste's at least in Gita. Most of the verses at least translated into English qualify the caste's by division of labor and occupation. One verse also states that you can attain the status of a Brahman by increasing your knowledge and attain perfection, which to me means people can move through the different caste's until they reach the Brahman stage but then I have never seen downward movement in caste's among Hindus.

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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

AS Radhakrishanan rightly mentions in his book.. Caste system was a labour distribution and sub caste was just a way of accmodoaitng warring tribals in fold of hinduims.. mind you in those days when two group whose method of worship differed met they fought till they either vanquished their rival or get killed .. these used to encourage slavery since vanquished were taken as slave.. caste system gave the alternative option of accomodation withotu bayong fpr the bllod of each other and it certainly was the most acomodative system in those days........

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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

^Caste system certainly was the most illogical system and caused millions to suffer and live miserable lives for hundreds of years. Nothing good can be said about it.

The emphasis is on millions of people here.

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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

PIUSA and Saregamapa ... do you want to continue discussing? I wanted to learn more or is there someone else who can fill in if they are not capable or able to.

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Bhagwad Gita, Upanishadas & Vedas mainly. Then there are other religious texts like Ramayana etc.

The concept of castes was first put forth in "Manu Smriti" which is not cosidered a religious/sacred text.

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Ok.

[QUOTE]

The concept of castes was first put forth in "Manu Smriti" which is not cosidered a religious/sacred text.
[/QUOTE]

We just gave references from the Gita about caste system. Or do you mean to say that social statuses of castes was set apart in Manu Smriti?

PARRTA HAI...
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Yes. Manusmriti clearly defined the relative position and the duties of the several castes, and determined the penalties to be indicted on any transgressions of the limits assigned to each of them. These laws are conceived with no sentimental scruples on the part of their authors. On the contrary, the offences committed by Brahmans against other castes are treated with remarkable clemency, whilst the punishments inflicted for trespasses on the rights of higher classes are the more severe and inhuman the lower the offender stands in the social scale.

However, the text was never universally followed or acclaimed by the vast majority of Indians in their history; it came to the world's attention through a late eighteenth-century translation by Sir William Jones, who mistakenly exaggerated both its antiquity and its importance. Today many of its ideas are popularised as the golden norm of classical Hindu law by Hindu universalists. They are, however, anathema to modern thinkers and particularly feminists.

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That is what I have gathered about the Manu Smriti as well. Though it is one of the most ancient hindu texts with codified laws about the castes.

However when you say Modern thinkers and feminists, does that mean these people have aligned themselves with teachings or ideology other than Hinduism to rally against these inequities or do these people find the Manu Smiriti opposed to the Vedic teachings (which are accpeted by all streams of Hinduism). I would be most interested to see how they prove these inequities using Hindu scriptures.

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No, basically these reformists do not believe that Manusmriti represents Hinduism. However, its difficult to quote from the Vedas to oppose Manusmriti, since Vedas came much earlier.

Before you discuss Manusmriti you must know its origin -
Manusmriti was NOT written by Manu. It was written by a pundit called Sumati Bhargava.
Why it was created - it was created to enslave the human minds of Indians like a cow bound by chain to a pole.
Why? & When?
It was created in the time of a brahmin king Pushyamitra Sunga (200 BC) who ruled from Patna.
Pushyamitra Sunga hated Buddhists & Jains (shramanas) because shramanas had become powerful & rich. Both Buddhism & Jain were followed by rich Vaishya class (traders) mainly. So they had lot of wealth & power due to king being Buddhist. At that time the last king of mauryas (7 th) Brihidaratha, was ruling. Pushyamitra was his commander in chief who stabbed him with a sword & grabbed throne.

Soon after he started destroying Buddhism from india. Destroyed thosands of pillars, signs , statues , maths, viharas & stupas. He declared that anyone who kills a buddhist & jain monk & brings his head cut from his body, will get a reward of 100 gold coins. The sun set on Buddhism in India. This was physical.

At the mental level, at the same time Sumati Bhargava created Manusmriti in which it is written that low caste people are to be treated like animals , their possessions should be snatched and they will be untouchables living outside villages and the only work to do was cleaning , washing feces, toilets and rearing pigs. (yes it is written) All of their human rights are snatched and there will be no sin (paap) if a high caste kills a low caste.

Also it declares that shramanas (buddhists & jains ) are shudras . This proves that Manusmriti was written after Buddha and its purpose was to declare Buddhists & Jains as low caste in order to eliminate them.

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What I am looking for is scriptural evidence from the Vedas that opposes the Manu Smriti. The Manu Smriti is abundant with caste inequities and is much entrenched in Hindu society however if Vedas is regarded as the sacred scripture the there should be clearly defined conceptual or critical evidence from its verses which should be in stark contrast to the Manu Smriti. What amazes the most is that the caste system (with its inequities) is most pronounced among the clergy of Hindu, who would know these distinctions being closest to the Hindu scriptures whether sacred or not.

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http://www.h-merchant.com/hinduism/caste.htm

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Re: Caste System - Misconceptions about Hinduism

regardless of of what the original intent was, wat the original m,eaning was etc caste system, especially untouchability is a) bad b) illegal and c) disgustingly discriminatory.

At the same time I will practice untouchability towards a sanitation worker who just surfaced from an underground drain (his own wife practices that for good reason).

Same with a farm animals worker, a stable hand etc.

In the west where pollen allergies affect Asian kinds especially, a certain type of untouchability is good.

Finall, untouchability is THE strategy for reducing effects of the swibe flu.

My pont is simply that HIndus practicing untouchability based purely on birth are as stupid as those accusing them of discrimination while not taking precaustions against influenza

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If it weren't for this stupid caste system Dhaani would be allowed to marry Ambar (Sajan Ghar Jaana Hai), lol, I don't really watch rubbish like that my aunty does.

I can't believe saregamapa is trying to sugar-coat and justify the concept of caste in his posts.

The caste system is pure evil, it's a part of the Hindu religion and it's there in the Hindu scriptures.

Caste system might be illegal in India but it's still endorsed by the Hindu religion.

Hats off to the India for banning it and making caste-based discrimination illegal.

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(I just skimmed through most of the posts so I'm sorry if I overlook anything important...)
In my overly simplistic understanding, I think it's pretty much useless trying to assess or judge the caste system if you don't believe in its underlying roots. In the context of reincarnation, it's very just and actually makes a great deal of sense. In the context of Abrahamic theology and worldviews that don't include cyclical karma, it's abhorrent and inhumane. In modern times, the burden of proof to justify a system that can be attacked from so many ethical perspectives and defies many universally-held principles lies on Hindus, and though the belief is very legitimate for you guys, it's generally not something the outside world would be prepared to accept given that we don't believe in the fundamental concept that would elucidate its fairness. Therefore, we're inevitably predisposed to be unfair in our assessments of it.

So while I personally cringe at the social inequalities the caste system has historically seemed to create, I also believe that theological bias is the key on either side of the discussion, especially my own.

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:salam:

I like your post. As for me what I have been trying to figure out is that though caste system was introduced as part of the original Hindu religion, it purpose was quite different. Though today it is degenerated into something quite vile and that too because of certain Hindu religious scriptures or guidance. Can Hindu’s justify the division of caste as a compulsion as part of their religion or was it something suited to the ancient time and purpose for which it was mentioned their Vedic scriptures.