How far does this run in the society? I didn’t know of such a thing in Pakistan. I have come to learn of it from the recent events when this poor lower cast girl was allowed to be gang-raped ordered by the Panchayat of her tribe to keep the honor of another tribe from a higher cast.
Tribal system, as you know is common all over Pakistan, but in parts of Punjab and Sindh, certain tribes or castes are considered higher then others.
I also thought that it was finished, until now… its such an Embarrassment!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/redface.gif
" CAN U FEEL IT! "
what happened to your dalits ?
are they at the top or they mixed with everbody and there is no caste system?
who does the menial jobs ?
do chaudries do menian jobs?
TRIBE RAPED ME ‘ONE BY ONE’ FOR BROTHER’S CRIME
Associated Press, Toronto Sun, 7/4/02
MEERWALA, Pakistan – For two hours, the teen worried for her
11-year-old brother as their father pleaded before a Pakistani tribal
council that the boy had done no wrong in walking with a girl from a
different tribe.
The council was unconvinced, and ordered a brutal punishment: The
boy’s sister would be gang-raped to shame her whole family.
Shortly afterward, four members of the council took turns raping the
18-year-old sister in a mud hut as hundreds of people stood outside
laughing and cheering…
“I touched their feet. I wept. I cried. I said I taught the holy Koran
to children in the village, therefore don’t punish me for a crime
which was not committed by me. But they tore my clothes and raped me
one by one,” the young woman said in an interview yesterday…
Pakistan’s Supreme Court yesterday directed top Punjab police and
government officials to attend a special hearing on the case
tomorrow…
- Notes of moral support for the woman and the family may be sent to:
Pakistan High Commission
Tel: (613) 238-7881
Fax: (613) 238-7296
Email: [email protected]
PAKISTAN GIVES FUNDS TO GANG-RAPE VICTIM
Reuters, Globe and Mail, 7/5/02
See: www.globeandmail.com. Search for ‘Pakistan’.
MUZAFFARGARH, PAKISTAN – An 18-year-old victim of an alleged gang
rape ordered by a Pakistani tribal jury received financial aid from
the government yesterday, on the eve of a Supreme Court hearing on the
matter.
Mukhtiar Mai was allegedly raped by four men in a punishment ordered
by a tribal jury, or panchayat, in her remote Punjab village about 600
kilometres southwest of Islamabad. After Women’s Development Minister
Attiya Inayatullah gave Ms. Mai a cheque for 500,000 rupees ($1,500)
yesterday, the young woman said: “I would have committed suicide if
the government had not come to my aid…”
In the name of God, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CAIR-CAN CONDEMNS GANG-RAPE OF PAKISTANI WOMAN
Authorities should act swiftly to punish perpetrators, urges
organization
(Ottawa, Canada - 7/5/02) - The Canadian office of the Council on
American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN) today condemned the rape of an
18 year old Pakistani woman who was sentenced by a village tribal
court to be gang-raped as punishment for her brother walking with a
girl from a higher-class tribe.
In a statement released today, CAIR-CAN wrote:
"The recent sentencing and gang-rape of a Pakistani woman for the
alleged actions of her brother is cruel and inhumane. Such action
runs counter to the most fundamental human rights espoused in Islam
and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.
"We call upon the Pakistani authorities to act swiftly in apprehending
and punishing the perpetrators. We further urge the government to
ensure that such brutal verdicts are never meted out again."
-END-
Contact: Riad Saloojee at 613-798-0003; Email: [email protected]
[quote]
Originally posted by Yemeen:
**How far does this run in the society? I didn’t know of such a thing in Pakistan. I have come to learn of it from the recent events when this poor lower cast girl was allowed to be gang-raped ordered by the Panchayat of her tribe to keep the honor of another tribe from a higher cast.
**
[/quote]
The caste system in Punjab is extremly deep rooted. You heard of just one example, which happened in an unknown village in Punjab. If you look at the folks living in big cities, who are educated, they also very often would utter something which would show their narrow mentality, and would show their belief in the caste system. One big example would be not marrying their children outside their caste and doing favors to the people of their own caste. Also the Christians living in Punjab are always referred to as "ChooRaas" an extremly derogatory racial slur used for so called lower caste hindus in the Indian Punjab. Most of the time people don't even shake hands with them.
So I would say the caste system runs pretty deep in the society, people are so used to it that they don't realize it is all around them.
could this be the root of pro-punjabi policies that punjabi politicians support , in terms of politics?
pCg
I hardly think thats the case, a bit far-fetched too.
Castes, tribes, sects exist all over Pakistan and not only in Punjabis. I make that statement on the basis that i've lived a good part of my life in Sindh, though i am a Punjabi. Sindhis have their own tribes and sects and many follow their norms very throughly like people of other ethnicities.
Caste system in Punjab is definitely deep-rooted, and more so in the rural areas than the urban. Education plays a major role in abolishing many of the negative rules/regulations that are accompanied by belonging to a certain caste as such was the unfortunate case of the raping of the girl ruled by the panchiyat. That is not to say that caste system is necessarily a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with classifying people to belong to a certain group, as long as you don't misuse it and consider yourself the king of the jungle and apply superiority over others.
Sehar
I think that castes only exist in the parts of Pakistan which are closer to India geographically and historically. There are tribes in NWFP, but there is no such thing as caste amongst the tribes. They belong to different forefathers and historical figures but no one is less or higher then the other. Even the beggar on the street is as high in honor as the Malik of the tribe. So when you say that this happens all over Pakistan, I think you are wrong.
Caste System is a bad thing, reason for its being comes from the very idea of division and degradation of people from different creeds and of different looks. Yes you can classify someone as per group, but you can’t classify their role in society, and that is what the caste system was invented for. It is very easy to say that caste system is not necessary a bad thing, but try asking someone from a lower cast, and see what they have to say for it.
Ron Jeremy
I had a Christian Punjabi friend who told me the same thing, and how Christians are told not to eat on Ramadan. Once his cousin was beaten up for eating in front of fasting Muslims.
[quote]
They belong to different forefathers and historical figures but no one is less or higher then the other. Even the beggar on the street is as high in honor as the Malik of the tribe.
[/quote]
I disagree.
Living in Peshawar for more than 8 years and visiting the rural areas quiet often, I didn't see that was the case. Just like anywhere in the world; classes were very prominent in NWFP society. Malik or beggar were treated in a different way, just like they will be treated on the streets of Islamabad, Dehli or New York City ...
There is a difference between caste & class; but the treatment of the constituents is similar.
[quote]
Originally posted by Yemeen:
*How far does this run in the society? I didn’t know of such a thing in Pakistan. I have come to learn of it from the recent events when this poor lower cast girl was allowed to be gang-raped ordered by the Panchayat of her tribe to keep the honor of another tribe from a higher cast.
*
[/quote]
i think this caste-thing is prevalent(if it is in the first place) in the developing cities..this issue is normally raised when marriages take place.
as far as the recent incident goes.. i think the "caste" issue was brought in just to make the article more colourful(or an excuse)..
u think that the girl's family would have have been happy to know that their daughter is having an affair with a guy from their caste?
[This message has been edited by heart beat (edited July 08, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
** i think this caste-thing is prevalent(if it is in the first place) in the developing cities..this thing normally comes into consideration when marriages take place.
as far as the recent incident goes.. i think the "caste" issue was brought in just to make the article more colourful(or an excuse)..u think think the girl's family would have have been happy to know that their daughter is having an affair with a guy of their caste?
**
[/quote]
"Caste" issue has not been brought in to make the article more colorful!
Do you think that if the Gujjar's were as powerful as the Mastoi's are, the teenaged girl would have been suffering like this?
And regarding the family's happiness on finding out that their girl is having an affair with a guy in their own caste...
- This is why women have to be accompanied with a "Mahram"
- This is why early marriage is recommended.
- If the guy was from their own caste, say a relative of the girl, wouldn't her parents have been happy and would have married her to the guy?
- If the guy was from their caste, but not a relative, even then, they would have married her to the guy, they would or would not be happy with the marriage, but a. what were they doing all the time? b. Where were they doing what when their daughter was having an affair? c. It means that they are not good parents, they are not aware of what is happening in their own homes, under their own nose. (I wonder why and how do parents claim, that "they know what is best for their child".) d. Isn't the girl to be blamed too? she was older than the boy too, why isn't she or her family members being punished too?
The only answer to these questions point out to one answer... "the CASTE system" which exists in The Islamic Republic of Pakistan and is practiced by "MUSLIMS".
Why should it be considered when marriages take place? WHY? Marriage is the foundation of the Society, and if the foundation is weak, the building doesn't last... if marriages are based on un-Islamic traditions, cultures, practices... HOW can we have a SOCIETY that represents ISLAM!!
This is the root cause of our problems, this is why we are not united...
Yemeen
I think i answered your question in my initial reply, where i said that it's okay as long as you don't misuse it and think of yourself as superior to others and use that notion to assert ur superiority by various means.
Ahmadjee
*I disagree.
Living in Peshawar for more than 8 years and visiting the rural areas quiet often, I didn’t see that was the case. Just like anywhere in the world; classes were very prominent in NWFP society. Malik or beggar were treated in a different way, just like they will be treated on the streets of Islamabad, Dehli or New York City …
There is a difference between caste & class; but the treatment of the constituents is similar.*
You are twisting things now. I didn’t say financially, I said in honor, in dignity and in respect. Of course the poor will be treated differently. In my own family and friends the less fortunate are treated differently, but that doesn’t mean that they are from a different lineage, different caste. Power wise a Malik is stronger then the beggar, but in honor they are the same, that was the point I was making. No human is lower or higher then the other, but of course the poor will be treated poorly and the rich will be treated highly. I know some people, who happen to be from lower cast and very wealthy, but still can’t marry someone from a higher cast. This issue has been brought up on this forum also by very educated and fortunate people. In one case a guy was asking why he couldn’t marry a Jatt girl.
heart beat
u think that the girl’s family would have have been happy to know that their daughter is having an affair with a guy from their caste?
Well I don’t think they would have been happy, but certainly no teenage girl would have been gang raped. Get the point?
~Sehar~
I think i answered your question in my initial reply, where i said that it’s okay as long as you don’t misuse it and think of yourself as superior to others and use that notion to assert ur superiority by various means.
No I think you did not. I think you should explain that to the girl gang raped. Explain that to a black man, tell him that he will be called a nigger but there will be no difference in treatment. Tell that to an unchoot, that he will be called that but will be treated the same as a Brahmin.
The Indians/British also have a term for my people, the “PATHAN”. It is a derogatory term, but Pashtoon people never give it the signification that it was, because they never understood what it was. Now after many years, and education, some people realize where that term came from and what it stands for. Surely, I don’t want to be called a thief, kidnaper, and a barbarian, because that is what the term “PATHAN” stands for.
Different
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
D. bhai, I’d recommend you read the full article. You can find the article in the political forum. After that please, reconsider some of your questions, and hopefully my answers may shed some more light on the issue.
Summary: an 11 year old boy was seen walking unaccompanied with an older woman. He had not reached puberty yet, according to his father. The opposing tribe, which the older woman belonged to, ordered the sister of the boy to be punished. This girl had nothing to do with the incident. She wasn’t seen walking with a boy, she was not guilty of fornication, in face she taught the Quran to the village kids.
1. This is why women have to be accompanied with a “Mahram”
The older woman was being accompanied by a boy who had not reached puberty yet. Islamically, this is perfectly jaahiz as the woman does not need to be veiled in front of a child. Veiling is another issue altogether in Islam, and so is walking with a Mehram/Na-Mehram. If you wish, I can have a lively and tough debate with you on that.
2. This is why early marriage is recommended.
Who are you referring to? The sister of the boy (Quran teacher)? She was 18 I believe. She was teaching the Quran, obviously to help out her family financially (if she did indeed charge the students). Perhaps, she did not get a suitable rishtaa by the age of 18? Perhaps, she was not willing to get married, because she had plans to do something else with her life? We certainly dont know, as the article doesn’t tell. Even if she was married, do you think that would have stopped the elders from issuing this punishment on her? It has nothing to do with her marriage or single life. The crime was a crime and does not even depend upon the marriage status of the raped. Its wrong, and there is no excuse for it.
Also, for some reason, even though this is only an ENCOURAGEMENT, and that too for a time period that is highly different than today’s, somehow early marriage seems to be the solution for all ills in society. How about teaching the male members of society how to respect a woman, and to teach them Islam. If they knew what Islam really was they wouldn’t disrespect their women, leave them behind in economical activity, and they certainly would not gang rape a woman for a crime that she did not commit, and wasn’t a crime in the first place.
3. If the guy was from their own caste, say a relative of the girl, wouldn’t her parents have been happy and would have married her to the guy?
You talk about Islam, but I’m surprised at this. Marriage is marriage. A man and a woman can be married as long as they dont have a relationship as identified and listed in the Quran. Castes dont matter. Neither does color or race. If their daughter got a good rishtaa from a muslim from Africa, they ought to be happy at this point.
4. If the guy was from their caste, but not a relative, even then, they would have married her to the guy, they would or would not be happy with the marriage, but
I dont understand this question. See my response above.
**a. what were they doing all the time?
see below.
Hello, they are villagers. They’re villaging. Its not like what you see in those Junaid Jamshed videos. Villagers aren’t strumming their musical instruments all the time. They have work to do, like you and me. But its 10 times more physically demanding.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
b. Where were they doing what when their daughter was having an affair?
Are we talking about the same case even? If not, pleaes give me a link or reference to the case you ARE talking about. No one was having an affair in this case. The little boy and the older woman were seen walking in a village. He might have been giving her company and protection for all we know. There is no reference to an affair in this case. So we must assume that none happened.
c. It means that they are not good parents, they are not aware of what is happening in their own homes, under their own nose.
Are we seriously talking about the same case?
There was NO AFFAIR.
d. Isn’t the girl to be blamed too? she was older than the boy too, why isn’t she or her family members being punished too?
For one, why would her family members be punished for the crime that a woman does, esp a crime such as adultery? Brush up on Islam, my boy. A punishment is given to the transgressor, not his khandaan.
However, if this case was a different one, and there WAS an affair going on - a sexual one at that - then yes, Islamically BOTH the man and woman involved would be punished.
[This message has been edited by PyariCgudia (edited July 08, 2002).]
~Sehar~ What good does a caste system bring?
And I recommend that you (sister PcG) re-read what I have wrote. Please read this whole thread from the beginning…
And also shed some light on the main point, due to which the innocent girl had to suffer like this, since you claim that this case has nothing to do with any sort of affair..
Yemeen my dear
Somehow you seem to think that i support the order of the social system that comes with Castes. Let me clarify that i do not. I whole-heartedly am with the everyone is created equal principle. What happened to the poor girl is very unfortunate, and my heart goes out to her. I hope no one has to go thru that ever in their life. If it were up to me, I'd shoot the @#$%$#@#.
What i mean to say is that the negative things that come with the caste system as adopted from india should be abolished, i.e. ranking people according to their castes. I don't see anything wrong with just distinguishing people according to the group they belong to, it's just a means of identification. But to categorize people in terms of ranking is wrong. I donno if i made that clear.
Lily-
Heritage for many is very important. I'd like to know where my ancestors came from, and what characteristics they had. Like i said before, identifying people is okay, but ranking them is not.